Immigration (1 Viewer)

[jsanders]

How do you know this for a fact? Our government tells us that immigrants to our country (legal or otherwise) have brought enormous economic benefits.
Who's telling the truth, the government or the extreme right who want to evict everybody with coloured skin?

The Extreme right want them here to create wage compitions at the bottem.

 

[Rich]

The Extreem right want them here to create wage compitions at the bottem.

Well as a nation it's true that you can no longer afford the huge salaries and pension benefits trade unionism inflicted on companies

 

[FoFa]

Pay Fight in Tech's Trenches
Day Laborers for a Verizon Subcontractor Say They Were Cheated
By Elissa Silverman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, February 16, 2006; D01
Nerbin Rodriguez spent weeks digging ditches near Chantilly last summer for the benefit of Verizon Communications Inc., part of the estimated $20 billion fiber-optic cable system the company is building to bring its next-generation phone, television and Internet service to American homes.
All that shoveling by hand cost him $2,000 in unpaid wages, Rodriguez now alleges. Yet he and 22 other ditch-digging colleagues who sometimes seek work at a Fairfax County day-laborer site can't look to the telecommunications giant for their money. They must try to get it from a subcontractor three layers removed that hired Rodriguez for $100 a day with no contract or paperwork.

Humm, looks some what like the liberal presses class envy reporting.
OK, first I am not saying these guys were not cheated. I tend to agree they were, even if they were illegal. But looking deeper into the story, it shines a light on Verizon right up front, grabs you and makes you blam big business. But they are suppose to report truth, so a casual mention at the bottom states, "They must try to get it from a subcontractor three layers removed". So that is telling me Verizon contracted something out. Is that abnormal? That contractor subcontracted pieces to others, still pretty normal. One of those subcontracted the actual digging out, where Rodriguez comes into play. In reality seems a large stretch to Verizon from there. After all it is the subcontractor's responsability to hire legals, and pay them. I bet Verizon didn't even know about this until the articule came out! If someone was legally liable for this pay, it should be, would be the contractor that hired him. Cause I bet they charged the contractor that hired them the full amount, etc. up the chain. I'll bet Verizone didn't really get a "cut" at all, nor maybe even benefited as the story says.

 

[FoFa]

You have encapsulated my entire beef on the subject with this paragraph.
They are illegal but they have still been cheated. Why? because they are human beings. Their illegal status does not alter this one jot. The immigrants legal status does not excuse the businesses' behaviour or their callous attitude to the human individual.

But the flip side is, then why not just let them all in? I mean why stop any? Give them welfare, food stamps, medical care, all at the workers expense. That is the human thing to do.
There appears to be no middle ground on this. So what is to be done? Seems like we either need to get more hardcore and enforce better, or just let them all in. The middlish ground has been tried before, and appears to have failed.

 

[jsanders]

Humm, looks some what like the liberal presses class envy reporting.
OK, first I am not saying these guys were not cheated. I tend to agree they were, even if they were illegal. But looking deeper into the story, it shines a light on Verizon right up front, grabs you and makes you blam big business. But they are suppose to report truth, so a casual mention at the bottom states, "They must try to get it from a subcontractor three layers removed". So that is telling me Verizon contracted something out. Is that abnormal? That contractor subcontracted pieces to others, still pretty normal. One of those subcontracted the actual digging out, where Rodriguez comes into play. In reality seems a large stretch to Verizon from there. After all it is the subcontractor's responsability to hire legals, and pay them. I bet Verizon didn't even know about this until the articule came out! If someone was legally liable for this pay, it should be, would be the contractor that hired him. Cause I bet they charged the contractor that hired them the full amount, etc. up the chain. I'll bet Verizone didn't really get a "cut" at all, nor maybe even benefited as the story says.

Why is it that when anyone now days is looking out for the working man he's labeled liberal.

I'll tell you why, because the fascist republicans have framed the debate to make any one not on the right, a liberal.

Try to use some other term besides liberal. Not all people trying to keep this country from being owned by the ultra rich or the mega-corps are liberals.

That’s going to back fire on the fascist leadership, soon when the country wakes and sees that the fascist have taken control maybe then the word fascist will become the national dirty word.

Verizon uses that system to provide a corporate shield. They are insulated from the evils they promote. Don’t be so naive. You don’t think there was a supervisor from Verizon was on that job site?

 

[FoFa]

Why is it that when anyone now days is looking out for the working man he's labeled liberal. I'll tell you why, because the fascist republicans have framed the debate to make any one not on the right, a liberal.

Well so you are calling the republicans Hitler basically.
First off, if the articule was meant to provide the plight of the working class, than why was that not up front? Why did the story first mislead you to Verizon, by basically placing that thought in your head before getting to the ripped off part? Seems to be the same misdirection, class envy tatics the liberals have used for years. Was there a Verizon rep. on sight during the digging, maybe, so what? Was there one during the paying portion, not their responsability, that is the subcontractors. I would liken it to, you buy some apples from a store (contractor), who bought them from a supplier (subcontractor) who got them from the grower (sub-subcontractor). Now just because the grower didn't pay the guys he hired to pick the apples, is that your fault in any way? Lets say you even took a tour of the orchard during harvest season. You saw the workers picking the apples. Are you at fault now?

 

[Rich]

Well so you are calling the republicans Hitler basically.

Don't be silly, Hitler started a war and lied about the reason for it

 

[jsanders]

Don't be silly, Hitler started a war and lied about the reason for it

Good Job Rich.

 

[ColinEssex]

I reckon that mankind has been exploiting mankind for the sake of profit for thousands of years. Egyptian slaves, The Romans, The Greeks, The British, The Americans, Pimps exploit vulnerable runaways / immigrants for sex, as do Philipino mothers sell their children for sex - we (various contries) are all guilty of it [exploitation] to some degree.
Its not an "American" thing its a worldwide thing, its just that in some places - like America - it can be more of a problem, and this is compounded by the "backhanders" passed to the many corrupt politicians to turn a blind eye.

I also suspect the exploitation of immigrants will continue in many countries for many years yet. In fact, as long as "money talks"

Col

 

[dan-cat]

Why is it that when anyone now days is looking out for the working man he's labeled liberal.

Quite right labels are bad...

I'll tell you why, because the fascist republicans have framed the debate to make any one not on the right, a liberal.

...and yet you indulge in the same practice yourself.

 

[dan-cat]

Well so you are calling the republicans Hitler basically.

I wouldn't get bogged down with the name-calling if I were you. It's a tactic to discredit the opponent's argument by discrediting the opponent's character itself.

I've pointed this out several times on this thread and have received no satisfactory answer either to my request for it to stop happening or to the arguments that this tactic has been used against.

 

[dan-cat]

I also suspect the exploitation of immigrants will continue in many countries for many years yet. In fact, as long as "money talks"

Col

Oh yes indeed and also as long as others view their fellow man as inferior.

 

[jsanders]

Oh yes indeed and also as long as others view their fellow man as inferior.

Dan,

You are refusing to actually comprehend what I have been saying.

1. A culture can be inferior and not have any thing to do with the people being inferior. All culture evolves. Take for instance Mississippi, they were the last hold out of the old Clan, yet they have begrudgingly excepted integration. Was there culture inferior to say Kentucky or Texas? Both “Southern States” but considerably more enlightened.
2. The Spanish people bring many positive elements to the Great Melting Pot, like all of the immigrants before them. The big difference, here is their complete unwillingness, of a large percentage of them, to adopt English and the American culture, and are actually forcing American governments (local, State, and Federal) to adapt to them. This has never happened on this scale before.
3. The cause of the immigration should not be confused with the damage being done by them. You cannot hold them blameless for action inspite of the reasons they are here.

I get the feeling you are rather intelligent. But it seems your emotions are more in control of your actions; or at least your words.

 

[dan-cat]

Dan,

You are refusing to actually comprehend what I have been saying.

No, I understand you perfectly, I'm pulling you up on your rhetoric. You seem to think your language is acceptable, I disagree.

1. A culture can be inferior and not have any thing to do with the people being inferior. All culture evolves. Take for instance Mississippi, they were the last hold out of the old Clan, yet they have begrudgingly excepted integration. Was there culture inferior to say Kentucky or Texas? Both “Southern States” but considerably more enlightened.

Unfortunately you tossed in the terms 'insidious' and 'infestation' when describing this culture. To whom or what were you referring with these terms?
How would you react if I referred to the Texan culture as 'insidious' and 'inferior'? Would you find it offensive? Would you think that it might possibly be a slur to Texans? I say yes, what do you say?

2. The Spanish people bring many positive elements to the Great Melting Pot, like all of the immigrants before them. The big difference, here is their complete unwillingness, of a large percentage of them, to adopt English and the American culture, and are actually forcing American governments (local, State, and Federal) to adapt to them. This has never happened on this scale before.

Have you ever considered the reason why Wal-mart labels their aisles in Spanish as well as English? Because the dollar owned by a Spanish speaker is worth just as much as a dollar owned by an English speaker. That's why. Blaming the situation solely on the immigrants is just fallacious. Spanish speakers have money to spend - businesses will label aisles in Mongolian if there is a profit in it.

3. The cause of the immigration should not be confused with the damage being done by them. You cannot hold them blameless for action inspite of the reasons they are here.

Where did I ever argue that an individual must not be held responsible for their own actions? Who are 'them'? Are these the people that belong to the 'insidious' culture?

I get the feeling you are rather intelligent. But it seems your emotions are more in control of your actions; or at least your words.

The reason why I am sticking my toes in is really because of this kind of statement. What you actually need to do is forget about my character and read what I am saying. Saying that I am 'rather intelligent' simply suggests that you think you are superior. You claim logical superiority and yet I have pointed out on numeous occasions where you have fallen short.

You need to get off this inferior/superior horse you're on and actually start treating your peers as equals.

 

[FoFa]

1. A culture can be inferior and not have any thing to do with the people being inferior. All culture evolves. Take for instance Mississippi, they were the last hold out of the old Clan, yet they have begrudgingly excepted integration. Was there culture inferior to say Kentucky or Texas? Both “Southern States” but considerably more enlightened.

In who's opinion?
Maybe not in Mississippi's opinion.
Were the native american's culture inferior? The early european settlers thought so, but were they?
What makes a culture inferior? Not the same as the one you are used too? I mean some of the older indian tribes (South America, Australia, Africa, etc.) spend their whole life in what I presume you would call an inferior culture, yet they live longer, and some say happier lives than we in your superior culture do. So I ask, who is it that decides what a inferior culture is?

 

[FoFa]

2. The Spanish people bring many positive elements to the Great Melting Pot, like all of the immigrants before them. The big difference, here is their complete unwillingness, of a large percentage of them, to adopt English and the American culture, and are actually forcing American governments (local, State, and Federal) to adapt to them. This has never happened on this scale before.

I have a tendency to agree with you on this point. How ever it would appear the big problem is we do not have a national language defined by the government. Both parties seem to be at blame for this, since neither has addressed the issue. Most likely because of states like California, Florida, The Great State of Texas where a large voting population exist that does not want to speak english.

 

[Kraj]

I think it is very dangerous to use a term like "inferior culture". Even if you set aside semantics, the word "culture" goes beyond issues like quality of life and civility. It also includes the arts, history, language, etc. It is quite absurd to claim any one of these is inferior to another. While I do no construe Joe's meaning as such and understand how complicated the language could become by being explicit and precise, the usage of the terms is still poorly chosen.

Furthermore, I think the word "inferior" is also poorly chosen as it imposes a blanket judgement. It is unfair to label an entire population's values - even if that population is technically composed of criminals - as inferior. I think it is fair, however, to examine whether the values of that poulation are damaging to our own. And in this case I believe it is true.

 

[dan-cat]

So I ask, who is it that decides what a inferior culture is?

Good question is the dominant culture necessarily the morally superior one?

 

[jsanders]

As usual Kraj understands my broken English better than most.

If you go back and actually read some of my earlier post you will see that I clearly outlined the aspects of South of the Border Societies that have visited generational poverty and ignorance on the people.

My entire rather disgustingly long dissertation about this subject has been about that.

One more time: They (South of the Border) are bringing aspects of their culture here that will ensure they are living in poverty in future generations. Then they march in protest to protect that culture.

Now if you don’t think that they are impoverished because of the way they have been living, then you should study their culture some more.


And if this infestation continues the United States will resemble those countries with poverty rates in 20 plus percentile.

Is that the culture, we should aspire to become?

 

[dan-cat]

As usual Kraj understands my broken English better than most.

He's giving you the benefit of the doubt because you haven't suggested he's a lunatic.

One more time: They (South of the Border) are bringing aspects of their culture here that will ensure they are living in poverty in future generations. Then they march in protest to protect that culture.

I honestly think you should look up the valid meanings of the word 'insidious' and then attempt to reconcile this descriptive term with your opinion on 'South of the border' cultures.