Is it Actually Racist?

[MarkK]

blacks were made slaves BY blacks

Yes, blame the victim. As long as they did it to themselves, it is not my f**king problem. A common and seductive argument. Like the woman wouldn't have got raped if she didn't wear a short skirt and the little black boy wouldn't have got shot in the back if he hadn't run from the cops.

 

[MarkK]

I can offer many stories of outright discrimination against me. It never made me into victim.

Credit to you, but on average, if people are degraded and disrespected, a portion of those people will internalize shame, and it will function as a poison in their minds and a poison in their communities. The fact you were able to navigate these hazards does not argue, to my mind, that bullshit should not be reflected on, and be acknowledged to be bullshit. And if people have internalized a message of shame because they have been historically degraded and disrespected, then how is it not our pleasure to contribute to the greater health of the community, and conduct ourselves with kindness, patience and generosity?

Appeasement in any of its forms

If an alcoholic experiences healing in his 12 step program, at some point he will need to go to people in his life and make amends. This is not for them, it is for him, for him to own the pain he caused. It is a matter of him coming to understand an important truth about himself. Contrast the idea of amends here with the idea of appeasement you have raised. There is no appeasement that needs to occur here, there are amends that need to be made.
Appeasement is a response to aggression. Maybe you think that under-privileged people demanding fair treatment is an aggression, and if we appease them, they will just keep demanding fair treatment, and then where will we be? You see what a bullshit line of reasoning that is, right?

 

[ebs17]

It actually is possible that one can say something without actually meaning it.

You seem to do this all the time because it's normal for you.
Seen this way, ALL of your statements are nonsense, chatter to waste time with no real meaning.

Remember: you're on a programming forum, not Bristol. The first condition for meaningful and successful programming is a precise language.

 

[Cotswold]

The first condition for meaningful and successful programming is a precise language.

The correct result of successful programming can only be perfection.
This is the watercooler. It can be a relief at times not to be perfect and to attempt to, or humerously join in with others without being needed to be judged.

 

[Cotswold]

Yes, blame the victim.

Yes today there are many excuses. Just as there are people who can only complain but do nothing themselves. They only want somebody else to do something. Basically the pointless brigade to be ignored totally.

The people who blame the victim are cheap point scorers with the mentality of a child. The attacker always makes their decision to attack.
It is totally their choice to do so.

The facts are that today there are slaves in Britain, Europe and America, etc. In car washes, or the barber, or the nail bar and so on. There are today more slaves in Africa that there ever were in the cotton fields in the US. Nobody can do anything about the past. It is ludicrous to complain about the past, as however much effort is spent nothing can change.

What annoys me is that there are all these complainers about the past who are doing nothing whatsoever to reduce slavery that exists today. They troop off to the car wash with the knowledge that the person washing their car is probably working for £5 a week and a matress on the floor in a room with six others. Invariably they don't even tip another £3 to the slave. And that is after they have sat there in their car watching them clean their car for ten mimutes.
Just so they don't have to bother doing it themeslves. They just pay the £7 or whatever and go.

People in your town are profiting or benefiting from slavery today and not a single person is doing anything about it. Not the police, not the local authority, not the sanctimonious social services and certainly not the lazy sods who won't wash their own car.

 

[Jon]

Yes, blame the victim. As long as they did it to themselves, it is not my f**king problem. A common and seductive argument. Like the woman wouldn't have got raped if she didn't wear a short skirt and the little black boy wouldn't have got shot in the back if he hadn't run from the cops.

Are we talking about the boy that was shooting at cars in Chicago? You know, the armed one who ran from cops and didn't drop the gun when asked, but instead suddenly turned on the police? (I think it was Chicago but could be wrong).

 

[Jon]

And if people have internalized a message of shame because they have been historically degraded and disrespected, then how is it not our pleasure to contribute to the greater health of the community, and conduct ourselves with kindness, patience and generosity?

You mean like the gingers? Or disabled? Or the small sample of categories in my earlier post? Why focus on race?

I've personally been slapped in the face twice by women, punched in the head by a thug, attacked by two thugs when aged 12, threatened to be stabbed, sexually assaulted by multiple women on a hen night, been groped on a nightclub dance floor, had stuff stolen from me multiple times, loans not repaid, car vandalised, another car broken into, house break-ins multiple times, my websites constantly being hacked, and many other injustices. Can I have some money please?

 

[ColinEssex]

Remember: you're on a programming forum, not Bristol.

Thank you for the reminder, I don't know where I'd be without you.

I mentioned my home town because Cotswold is from a similar area and is probably familiar with Bristol. Although I don't know why I have to waste time explaining myself to you.
Col
PS - I would be interested to know your location though.

 

[Jon]

What if there was a massive historical injustice? Like, let's say there was a lower class of people who were historically considered property, had no rights, and who's entire toil in life contributed solely to the accumulation of capital in the hands of their owners. Then, over the passage of time it was deemed that the ownership of humans was unjust. So the lower class of people had their rights returned to them, but not the capital of their labour.

Now, enter your claim they are born into poverty. What do you think the African American social profile in the United States would look like if slaves retained possession of the capital they created? All the labour in the United States for many many generations was performed by humans to whom NONE of the benefits of their labour accrued.

In other words, the whites stole from the blacks. You consider that an injustice. But you consider it a justice to have blacks steal from the whites now, through reparations.

You also state that all labour was performed by those who did not benefit from their labour. Are we still talking about race here, because I thought everybody worked back then?

I never said blacks were born into poverty. I said anyone who is born into poverty has a disadvantage, and there are more poor white people in the USA than poor black people, in absolute terms.

I think the best way for blacks to improve their life chances is a redress of capital, where American whites acknowledge the massive historical thievery blacks have been the victim of, and make it right. Whites disproportionately win at the game because whites disproportionately control the capital.

I think I understand you here. Take money from innocent whites who did no historical theft, and give it to blacks who were not the victims of historical theft. Or in other words, steal from whites and give to blacks. Bring back stealing! If someone I know, a white, commits a crime, should I personally pay for that crime? What about all the crime in the black community? Should an innocent black pay for a crime committed by a black who kills someone? I don't think so.

This obsession with race is just a political tool used to garner votes. We all face injustices, like positive discrimination. If I can't get a job because of my skin colour, how is that fair? It works both ways.

What about the Jews? There was more slavery in recent times amongst whites (Jews) than blacks.

 

[Pat Hartman]

run for president Pat, run!

Not sure I would make it with 3 votes (You, me and Uncle Gizmo) plus the family. Maybe I can order enough pre-printed ballots from China. I would end up being called The Butcher of DC as I cut departments entirely and eliminated a large part of the rest of the deep state. Starting with the entire Department of Education. Then I would spread what is left of the Executive Branch around the country to minimize the confirmation bias we have with all of them living and working in the same environment. Then I'd have to find something to do with all those empty office buildings in DC. Then I would push Congress to propose two amendments to the constitution - Term Limits, and Line Item Veto for all bills.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I'll try to make a positive statement, but I know it will fall on deaf ears. The best way for ANY disadvantaged people to improve their status is to lose the "oh, poor me, I'm a victim" mentality and go out and do something positive. Don't be a slacker. Don't be a whiny baby. Do something positive. And if you think that is racist, just remember that it applies to lazy whites and lazy Asians. Actually, I'm not sure I've ever SEEN a lazy Asian, but maybe I've just been a bit sheltered.

When I was working with the U.S. Navy, it was always through a contracting company. The two best companies for which I worked during my stint associated with the Navy? Black-owned and operated, essentially long-term temporary agencies who found qualified computer-savvy people to do the systems, engineering, and security work requested by the Navy. I would work for them again in a heartbeat except that I'm retired now and old enough to not want to go through yet another security clearance investigation. I am also too tired to take the mandatory classes that were the reason I eventually retired. But the two minority-owned companies to which I referred were successful and were built by black gentlemen who knew to not wallow in self-pity. The went out and got a job done. And... lo and behold... they got more work contracts coming their way because they had the REPUTATION of getting the job done. A sort of "positive feedback" loop. And they motivated me to have that attitude, which is why they kept me on board.

 

[AccessBlaster]

Where would reparations begin and end? Because...

"By the 1480s Portuguese ships were already transporting Africans for use as enslaved labourers on the sugar plantations in the Cape Verde and Madeira islands in the eastern Atlantic. Spanish conquistadors took enslaved Africans to the Caribbean after 1502, but Portuguese merchants continued to dominate the transatlantic slave trade for another century and a half, operating from their bases in the Congo-Angola area along the west coast of Africa. The Dutch became the foremost traders of enslaved people during parts of the 1600s, and in the following century English and French merchants controlled about half of the transatlantic slave trade, taking a large percentage of their human cargo from the region of West Africa between the Sénégal and Niger rivers. In 1713 an agreement between Spain and Britain granted the British a monopoly on the trade of enslaved people with the Spanish colonies. Under the Asiento de negros, Britain was entitled to supply those colonies with 4,800 enslaved Africans per year for 30 years. The contract for this supply was assigned to the South Sea Company, of which British Queen Anne held some 22.5 percent of the stock."

 

[Pat Hartman]

There are simply no clean hands or clean countries when it comes to slavery and people need to stop thinking of it as a white on black crime. The word slave comes from the name for the Slavs and last I knew, the Slavs are not "black". Conquering armies of the past ALWAYS took slaves. That's how the slave traders of the African slave trade got their merchandise. The slave traders didn't go into the bush to capture slaves themselves. The locals raided neighboring tribes and sold the prisoners to the slave traders. The Marine hymn references our war with Tripoli which was prompted by the Barbary Pirates taking American sailors as slaves. Slavery is still alive and well all over the world.

Asking the people of today who never had slaves and probably didn't even have ancestors who owned slaves (the number of slaveholders was not all that large. People talk about the past as if every Tom, Dick, and Harry held a hundred slaves and beat them daily.), to pay reparations to people who were never slaves and who possibly never even had an ancestor who was a slave, is just plain theft. Then what do we do about the free blacks who held slaves? Do their descendents deserve reparations? Reparations sound good and moral but they are not. Nothing that substitutes one crime for another is moral.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

The percentage of Americans who held slaves depends on how you count and no one seems to specify their counting method. Some count the number of "men" who owned slaves in the south where slavery was legal. Some count the number of members of a family who owned slaves since the entire family benefits - this is where you get the 25% number that is sometimes quoted. Others use the total population of the US as the denominator rather than just the non-slave population of the slave states.

Research Suggests White Slavery Was Much More Common

Editor's note (3/21/20): For an update on this story, visit: Why is a 16-year-old book on slavery so popular now? A new study suggests that a million or more European Christians were enslaved by Muslims in North Africa between 1530 and 1780 – a far greater number than had ever been...

news.osu.edu

FACT CHECK: 9 'Facts' About Slavery They Don't Want You to Know

A widely circulated list of historical "facts" about slavery dwells on the participation of non-whites as owners and traders of slaves in America.

www.snopes.com

American slavery: Separating fact from myth

On Juneteenth, the day that commemorates the ending of slavery in the US, a historian dispels myths about the ‘peculiar institution’ of slavery.

theconversation.com

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2022/09/13/1122714064/modern-slavery-global-estimate-increase

 

[ColinEssex]

Horrible things happened in the long distant past and the near distant past and still does today. We can't change the past, in hindsight it was cruel but it was normal trade in those days. As with many things in the past (like racial segregation in the USA) it is now considered crazy, but was normal at that time.
Don't dwell on what happened in the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries, look at today, slave nail bar, sex workers - the list is endless. We all need to be constructive and do positive things (I don't know what, I'm not a politician), but until the world leaders recognise the situation, it will continue because (at the risk of sounding American) it is worth big bucks to the slave traders.
Col

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Horrible things happened in the long distant past and the near distant past and still does today. We can't change the past, in hindsight it was cruel but it was normal trade in those days. As with many things in the past (like racial segregation in the USA) it is now considered crazy, but was normal at that time.
Don't dwell on what happened in the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries, look at today, slave nail bar, sex workers - the list is endless. We all need to be constructive and do positive things (I don't know what, I'm not a politician), but until the world leaders recognise the situation, it will continue because (at the risk of sounding American) it is worth big bucks to the slave traders.
Col

Thank you, Col, for an absolutely correct statement. We need to keep it in perspective. Do something for today because yesterday is already gone.

 

[Steve R.]

One tangent to slavery debate that the race baiters purposely dismiss (in selectively blaming the ills of slavery in the US) is that a vast number of people in the US have absolutely no "intersection" with slavery since they would have immigrated into the US after the abolition of slavery. Furthermore, the abolition movement appears to have emerged in the US circa 1820-1830 led mostly by Whites. Slavery was a "dying" institution (England ended the slave trade in 1807 and abolished slavery in 1833). The race baiters deliberately ignore that slavery was "dying" out. They knowingly mislead the public (by keeping it alive) to spread racial hatred and to brainwash the public into believing the lie of "White guilt". These narratives need to be rejected.

 

[AccessBlaster]

(in selectively blaming the ills of slavery in the US)

We are an easy target for the race baiters

 

[ColinEssex]

Thank you, Col, for an absolutely correct statement.

Not sure Ebs17 would agree. Apparently all my statements are nonsense and wasted time with no real meaning.
Col

 

[ebs17]

Apparently all my statements are nonsense and wasted time with no real meaning.

Wasn't something like that marked as special humor?

 

[Pat Hartman]

Post #34 was a rational statement. It contributed to the conversation and didn't disparage any person or ethnic group.