Northwind 2.0 Feedback

[isladogs]

I am unable to replicate what you described above.
1. The 2 new Northwind template icons appeared in the File...New menu a couple of days ago. Nothing was installed.

2. I then installed both of the templates and 2 ACCDT files were copied to my Templates folder:

The corresponding ACCDB files were created in a folder of my choice

3. I followed your steps above and deleted the 2 ACCDT files completely. I also removed the 2 ACCDB files that I had created from the templates.
On reopening Access, the two Northwind icons were still visible BUT there were no ACCDT files in my Templates folder.
Nothing was installed automatically

 

[Gasman]

Perhaps it is clearer in 2007?
Though online templates no longer exist for it.

 

[omar.aslaoui]

thanks for the templates (starter & dev)

I have some remarque for the dev
1- why not a dev version split by BE/FE
2- why not implemented a role based access to the app with an encrypted BE

 

[Cotswold]

I am unable to replicate what you described above.
1. The 2 new Northwind template icons appeared in the File...New menu a couple of days ago. Nothing was installed.

2. I then installed both of the templates and 2 ACCDT files were copied to my Templates folder:

View attachment 107699
The corresponding ACCDB files were created in a folder of my choice

3. I followed your steps above and deleted the 2 ACCDT files completely. I also removed the 2 ACCDB files that I had created from the templates.
On reopening Access, the two Northwind icons were still visible BUT there were no ACCDT files in my Templates folder.
Nothing was installed automatically

That is a little odd, as I can repeat it over and over. I presume that if you choose a NW it loads.
The NW Templates are saved into the following folder, which is different to where the other Templates are. The folder on my PC is :

C:\Users\Win11PC\AppData\Local\Microsoft\Office\16.0\DTS\en-US{FC78A686-6A24-498A-BED8-5AD26A67FE3D}

However, if I delete a different Template, say Contacts.accdt from its folder, then when I click on the Contacts Template Access will load it from Office.com and also install a copy of the Contacts.accdt into the above folder as well. Albeit with a different filename which does not make it clear that it is Contacts. The folder appears to be where the Template.PNGs are stored. Similarly, Access will do the same for NW if they do not exist on the PC, but as I have said, it will do so automatically on open, not just if you open the Template.

I only use Access2021 for 64bit applications, which are few and far between. I'll just stop using A2021. I intend to switch some stuff into Python anyway, so no big deal.

p.s. Not the same issues in Access2010. That just falls over after not finding the file, which I'm OK with.

 

[GPGeorge]

Spoiler: ETC

You From #1 shortcut I opened and the file downloaded. Then transferred to new folder and opened in Accsss

Featured Access templates - Microsoft Support

Analyze and store large amounts of information, and manage data more efficiently with Access database templates available for download.

support.microsoft.com

1. Opened saved ACCDTs in Access2021 ( incorrectly stated previously as Access2019) Two Northwind icons appear in Access. They are in the template folder as
{A5699FFA-93AD-49A4-B056-FD34A9539538}tf11138777_win32.accdt
and
{D5DBB01B-BC95-403A-AF6A-14A7C7066CA8}tf22238896_win32.accdt

2. If I delete the downloaded file and the two files in the Template folder, then remove them from the Recycle bin. When I reopen Access the two Northwind files are reinstalled into the Template folder and in Access!

2.1.If I repeat (2) with the internet off two blank icons briefly show in Access, then disappear

2.2. If I then close Access and reopen with the internet on then the two Northwinds are instantly reinstalled on Access and also into the Template folder.

Basically I cannot remove them from Access if I need the internet on. As soon as Access opens it goes online and updates itself. Once installed I am unable to delete them. It is now mandatory for the two oversize template images of Northwind to be prominent in Access, and for my copy of Access to logon to Microsoft when it opens and maybe during use. Presumably not for my benefit. How do I know in Microsoft in not also downloading any Access application I work on? After all it has not been made at all clear that it does logon to my PC using my copy of Access as I have only found out by accident. In fact Microsoft has not mentioned at all that after just installing Northwind that it is now using my copy of Access to access my PC. (no pun intended)

Spoiler: ETC

That is a little odd, as I can repeat it over and over. I presume that if you choose a NW it loads.
The NW Templates are saved into the following folder, which is different to where the other Templates are. The folder on my PC is :

C:\Users\Win11PC\AppData\Local\Microsoft\Office\16.0\DTS\en-US{FC78A686-6A24-498A-BED8-5AD26A67FE3D}

However, if I delete a different Template, say Contacts.accdt from its folder, then when I click on the Contacts Template Access will load it from Office.com and also install a copy of the Contacts.accdt into the above folder as well. Albeit with a different filename which does not make it clear that it is Contacts. The folder appears to be where the Template.PNGs are stored. Similarly, Access will do the same for NW if they do not exist on the PC, but as I have said, it will do so automatically on open, not just if you open the Template.

I only use Access2021 for 64bit applications, which are few and far between. I'll just stop using A2021. I intend to switch some stuff into Python anyway, so no big deal.

p.s. Not the same issues in Access2010. That just falls over after not finding the file, which I'm OK with.

What you describe here is both unusual and intriguing.

Similarly, Access will do the same for NW if they do not exist on the PC, but as I have said, it will do so automatically on open, not just if you open the Template.

To be frank, that part in bold seems unlikely under normal circumstances. I have never heard of another situation where Microsoft force downloaded template files that the user didn't select.

There are a number of small accdt files under C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Office\root\Templates\3084\Access\Part which are installed to support the use of Application Parts, which I doubt very many people actually use. That is a different feature and not related to your problem.

To be sure I'm understanding the actual problem correctly:

Whenever you open Access 2021, the two accdt files for Northwind are automatically downloaded to your hard drive, and stored in the folder location you stated above if they are not already there. In this case, you identify "appdata" as that location. You delete those template files. The next time you open Access 2021, they are again downloaded with no interaction by you. You can reliably replicate this behavior. Is this what you have observed?

AND, to be 100% clear, you are NOT talking about the icons, but the full template accdts? And that the accdts are placed on your hard drive in addition to the icons for them?

The reason I want to be clear here is that pngs are downloaded for every single template currently offered. That's no big deal. That's how it's worked since the first day of templates. You only noticed these because they are the first new templates in a very longtime. If you were ever under the misapprehension that Access--and every other Office product--doesn't update things like this, you know differently now. I'd be willing to bet that almost every single modern application does exactly the same thing. For example, I get notifications from other applications whenever a new update is available. The only way to prevent that is to unplug one's internet connection. For better or worse, that's where we are today.

If, as you have stated, however, it involves not just the pngs, which are small icons for display in the Access app, but the actual template itself, then that would be a problem. And it would warrant further escalation. I think it is not the case. I think you are only seeing the icons, as expected.


BTW: Access 2010 is out of support and "falls over" because it is no longer able to reach out to the template site to check for new templates. That, I propose, is appropriate. And it is also a perfect counterpoint to the question of Office 2021 reaching out and checking.

 

[GPGeorge]

thanks for the templates (starter & dev)

I have some remarque for the dev
1- why not a dev version split by BE/FE
2- why not implemented a role based access to the app with an encrypted BE

You are welcome and encouraged to adapt the templates to your needs.

There is a technical reason, as well as practical reasons, for the single accdb.

• Templates can only be delivered as a single accdb.
• Delivering templates that required configuration of linking tables on thousands and thousands of different computer environments, to suit the preferences of thousands and thousands of users, both advanced and novice, would be difficult.

With regard to the addition of role based security and encrypted BE, both are intriguing and challenging ideas. Again, while I can't speak for other members of the working group that produced these templates, I believe one of the positive things that can come out of it beyond the immediate product itself, is that it can help inspire more advanced developers to try their own innovations and enhancements. NW provides a common platform for such efforts. I'd love to see, for example, your implementation of role-based security.

Take the templates and push them as far as you can go.

 

[jdraw]

Further to George's response in #26, I think many would like to see suggestions with samples for any enhancements to, or based upon, these templates. Also, I would expect/hope to see some videos (youtube) featuring some of the "secretive/to be discovered" techniques used within these NW2 editions. For example, the single, static error handler class may become a best practice -- as may other "currently hidden" gems.

 

[Pat Hartman]

which I doubt very many people actually use.

I've tried them. They use poor naming conventions and so are not useful.

Did you know that you can make your own template file?

 

[GPGeorge]

I've tried them. They use poor naming conventions and so are not useful.

Did you know that you can make your own template file?

Yes, that's another whole story, Pat.

 

[CJ_London]

I think the error handler as a class is a good example of how a class can be used. I’ve used a similar principle for a number of years, but just in a standard module- I’ll be taking a look at the class to see if there are other benefits

 

[GPGeorge]

Further to George's response in #26, I think many would like to see suggestions with samples for any enhancements to, or based upon, these templates. Also, I would expect/hope to see some videos (youtube) featuring some of the "secretive/to be discovered" techniques used within these NW2 editions. For example, the single, static error handler class may become a best practice -- as may other "currently hidden" gems.

I'm pretty sure there will be one or more User Group presentations on some of the features in the near future. First, though, we're talking a breather for a bit.

 

[GPGeorge]

I think the error handler as a class is a good example of how a class can be used. I’ve used a similar principle for a number of years, but just in a standard module- I’ll be taking a look at the class to see if there are other benefits

Same here. I spent some time over the last few days working on mine with an eye to moving it to a class at some point.

Tom vS, by the way, gets credit for it.

 

[isladogs]

George
Just tried installing the new templates on my tablet which has A365 v2305 (Beta) build 16421.20000
I'm aware that not everyone can see the templates in Beta channel but I can.
However trying to install either edition crashes Access with no ACCDT installed and only a partial install of the ACCDB file.
Hopefully fixed in next week's update

 

[GPGeorge]

That's the culprit: A365 v2305 (Beta) build 16421.20000

Shane has assured someone, and forgive me for not remembering exactly who at the moment, that it will be fixed. I have had endless conversations about NW2 here and elsewhere over the last few days. I now understand and sympathize much more with the difficulties MS faces in releasing any new software or software update. Some things we didn't even know we didn't know yet.

 

[isladogs]

I think it was Maria but she can’t see the template icons at all.

Your final sentence is a bit like my signature line. I’ve been working on my own localisation issues so I can appreciate just how complex things like this can be

 

[GPGeorge]

Yes, Maria. Thanks. I need another nap and a cuppa strong coffee.

 

[Pat Hartman]

Dev version. Superficial reaction.

My initial reaction is negative due to certain design choices.

So far, I really don't like the structure. The autoexec, prevents access to some design features so I have to close the app and then reopen with the shift key depressed. Without a menu form, it is difficult to figure out what object I want to work with. I think the lack of a more standard menu/switchboard is going to be a challenge for others as well. I just made it a little easier by changing the Nav pain (sic) sort order to by type rather than modified date. But It is really frustrating to have to reopen the database to get the menu so I can try stuff but then have to close and reopen using the shift/bypass to get to design view. I really would have preferred a form menu. I know the ribbon is cool and "modern" but it makes it very difficult to switch between running a form and modifying it. I suppose if I ever spent enough time with the app to become familiar with all the objects, it would be less frustrating but this particular design choice might turn off people from trying to understand what's behind the scenes. ----- I just noticed that not all forms have this problem. Some have the developer options available from the right click menu and some don't. I don't know what is causing this.

The other downside of the ribbon menu is the vertical space. Several of the forms get chopped off at the bottom when you have the ribbon expanded so you have to minimize it. But, that closes your menu so then you have to expand it again.

Is there a way to reload the custom ribbon without losing the developer features?

I also hate the tab view but that's just me. Mostly, i hate the way multiple forms stay open AND you can open multiple instances of the same form. I think this just confuses people and that always leads to errors. Was there a conscious decision to allow multiple instances of a the same form to open? This actually makes more sense in the form view because you can see both forms at the same time but with the tab view, you can only see one form at a time so comparing them is pretty near impossible - at least for my pea brain. BUT, if you do want to open multiple instances of the same form - you shouldn't be able to open multiple forms to the same record. I created conflict errors by trying to update the same order from different form instances. This may just be an inconsistency but the companies form won't open two instances of even different companies.

Lots of people allow runtime changes to combos so I can see why you would include an example. I don't for a lot of reasons. One which came to mind as I tried to enter a new Title on the Employee form. Of course, I realized too late that I had misspelled what I added and I had no way to fix it. If your users can't type and can't spell, allowing changes this way just lets them be sloppy and you end up with two, or more, entries one of which is spelled correctly hopefully.

Things I liked
- Using a bright colored background for hidden fields. I've been doing that for years.
- Style of the forms is clean. A little too much white space on the single record forms though but not horrible the way many web pages are.
- Ability to re-date the data is very useful. As this template ages, it will make it much easier to use.
- Ability to delete the data. I didn't try this. Does it leave the lookup list data?
- Showing the ID on the tab for some of the tabs. It would be nice if the employee form did also.

Things I don't see:
1. No maintenance forms for lookup lists - The Titles can be updated on the fly but not all can. Some need to be controlled by IT because the values affect program logic but all other lookups should have maintenance options.
2. How to add employee privileges - just found the subform but it doesn't seem to be connected to the employee form. I couldn't find a way to get to it except by opening it from the Nav Pane.

Specs:
I looked at the documentation and I don't see anything about how the inventory works or how to do a stocktake. I get an error about "Expected Quantity" but I don't know what that means. Do you have any documentation about how the inventory works. For example when the various quantity fields get updated. I know the app isn't supposed to be a real app but parts of this work as I would expect but not others. It would be nice to know how much of the inventory actually works.

I didn't look at any of the code or data macros or error handler. Later

If you disregard my personal pet peeves, the app is better organized and potentially more useful than older versions.

 

[Pat Hartman]

I think it was Maria but she can’t see the template icons at all.

When I first looked two days ago, I had to navigate to the other templates page. The icons were not visible from the opening page. Now that I have installed them, they appear front and center so I see them every time I open Access directly. Perhaps the icons are a little loud but they do grab your attention - except not until after you know they're there.

 

[GPGeorge]

When I first looked two days ago, I had to navigate to the other templates page. The icons were not visible from the opening page. Now that I have installed them, they appear front and center so I see them every time I open Access directly. Perhaps the icons are a little loud but they do grab your attention - except not until after you know they're there.

The process has been a learning curve for a lot of us.

 

[GPGeorge]

Dev version. Superficial reaction.

Spoiler: etc

My initial reaction is negative due to certain design choices.

So far, I really don't like the structure. The autoexec, prevents access to some design features so I have to close the app and then reopen with the shift key depressed. Without a menu form, it is difficult to figure out what object I want to work with. I think the lack of a more standard menu/switchboard is going to be a challenge for others as well. I just made it a little easier by changing the Nav pain (sic) sort order to by type rather than modified date. But It is really frustrating to have to reopen the database to get the menu so I can try stuff but then have to close and reopen using the shift/bypass to get to design view. I really would have preferred a form menu. I know the ribbon is cool and "modern" but it makes it very difficult to switch between running a form and modifying it. I suppose if I ever spent enough time with the app to become familiar with all the objects, it would be less frustrating but this particular design choice might turn off people from trying to understand what's behind the scenes. ----- I just noticed that not all forms have this problem. Some have the developer options available from the right click menu and some don't. I don't know what is causing this.

The other downside of the ribbon menu is the vertical space. Several of the forms get chopped off at the bottom when you have the ribbon expanded so you have to minimize it. But, that closes your menu so then you have to expand it again.

Is there a way to reload the custom ribbon without losing the developer features?

I also hate the tab view but that's just me. Mostly, i hate the way multiple forms stay open AND you can open multiple instances of the same form. I think this just confuses people and that always leads to errors. Was there a conscious decision to allow multiple instances of a the same form to open? This actually makes more sense in the form view because you can see both forms at the same time but with the tab view, you can only see one form at a time so comparing them is pretty near impossible - at least for my pea brain. BUT, if you do want to open multiple instances of the same form - you shouldn't be able to open multiple forms to the same record. I created conflict errors by trying to update the same order from different form instances. This may just be an inconsistency but the companies form won't open two instances of even different companies.

Lots of people allow runtime changes to combos so I can see why you would include an example. I don't for a lot of reasons. One which came to mind as I tried to enter a new Title on the Employee form. Of course, I realized too late that I had misspelled what I added and I had no way to fix it. If your users can't type and can't spell, allowing changes this way just lets them be sloppy and you end up with two, or more, entries one of which is spelled correctly hopefully.

Things I liked
- Using a bright colored background for hidden fields. I've been doing that for years.
- Style of the forms is clean. A little too much white space on the single record forms though but not horrible the way many web pages are.
- Ability to re-date the data is very useful. As this template ages, it will make it much easier to use.
- Ability to delete the data. I didn't try this. Does it leave the lookup list data?
- Showing the ID on the tab for some of the tabs. It would be nice if the employee form did also.

Things I don't see:
1. No maintenance forms for lookup lists - The Titles can be updated on the fly but not all can. Some need to be controlled by IT because the values affect program logic but all other lookups should have maintenance options.
2. How to add employee privileges - just found the subform but it doesn't seem to be connected to the employee form. I couldn't find a way to get to it except by opening it from the Nav Pane.

Specs:
I looked at the documentation and I don't see anything about how the inventory works or how to do a stocktake. I get an error about "Expected Quantity" but I don't know what that means. Do you have any documentation about how the inventory works. For example when the various quantity fields get updated. I know the app isn't supposed to be a real app but parts of this work as I would expect but not others. It would be nice to know how much of the inventory actually works.

I didn't look at any of the code or data macros or error handler. Later

If you disregard my personal pet peeves, the app is better organized and potentially more useful than older versions.

Thank you, Pat. We value your thorough review. You really dug into it.

First, on a broad, general, note about the overall design.

The design approach is aimed at the newest generation of developers, or maybe "Power Users" or whatever the current euphemism is would be a better term than developer. They grew up on the ribbon, tabbed forms and the navigation pane. I could go on about the philosophies and pros and cons of the "Switchboard" vs "Ribbon", but the point is, the interface at least is targeted at a different audience than you and me.

You're right about the ability to open duplicate copies of an order. Testing didn't catch that. It is unlikely scenario, but not impossible. We will have to address that. The MRU list will only refocus on an open order, but you can go back to the orders list and open a second copy of the order from that route. Thanks for catching that.

Other things you don't see: Well, we had to leave something for you to do.

Seriously, there are lots of features which could be included. We considered some that you mention, but not all. In essence, we put a fence around the project and said, this is what we'll do in this version.

Some of our design choices could be explained more explicitly. That's what documentation is for and although it was a major part of the effort, it still doesn't cover every feature in detail. Call it a compromise with the explicit intention of not scaring people off with a ten page description.

For example, the lack of a way to go from employee form to privileges. The documentation mentions that allowing you to change privileges at all is not something you'd find in a production application aimed at a work group. It would be restricted to managers who have that authority. What is there now is, I guess, a compromise in that sense. It can be done, but it has to be outside the normal production flow. Someone else mentioned user roles and security. Those weren't part of this project, but there is no reason a developer couldn't add them and also handle the privileges option differently and bring it closer to a production ready application. In fact, I'd love to see that.

This is a Showcase. As we've tried to say in different places, it's not intended to be a working application. You've pointed out some of the reasons we choose to call it a Showcase of Features, not a template for a production application.

• I would love to start seeing other developers take on the challenge of making it an appropriately split accdb. Templates have to be deployed as single accdts. It would be cool to see someone add relinker code and split it.
• It would be great if someone wanted to implement role based security and offer that version.
• How about a version that uses overlapping windows instead of tabbed documents.
• Maybe someone would like to implement a Switchboard style menu.
• How about incorporating a web browser and PowerBI reports instead of the current reports?
  • I was really pleased to be able to figure out how to "automate" the reports in Report View, but a PowerBI version would be really impressive.
• SQL Server back end
• You dream it up and do it

Finally, inventory. It's hard. It's harder to do it well. It's impossible to write one inventory model that works for any business. I think the best way to understand it is to dig into the code and follow the logic. And, I believe, the way this was put together, following the code is easier than in any template I've used in the past.

Again, we really appreciate the thought and effort that went into this review. It's so much more valuable than, "I like it" or "Why didn't you do XYZ instead?"