Open Veins of Latin America: Five Centuries of the Pillage of a Continent

[JamesLast99]

It's just a figure of speech.
I might just as easily said 'Oh Santa' or 'Oh tooth fairy'.

I also use the term 'Jesus' as an expression of surprise, from time to time.
As well as 'Christ on a bike' and 'To hell with whatever'. I don't believ in those either.

I thought Jesus was now pretty well accepted as a historical figure?

 

[Alc]

I thought Jesus was now pretty well accepted as a historical figure?

It's well accepted that Jesus was a very common name and that saying that Jesus didn't exist is like saying that Steven didn't exist in 1975. There were plenty of them.

It's far from accepted that he had anything to do with one or more gods.

 

[Rich]

Only in the sense of 'not at all like it'.
That one is a prejudice. I can't have anything against something whose existence I don't believe in.
If the person meant that they don't believe Americans exist, then it would be comparable, but I don't get that impression.

Well I wouldn't want to be seen as playing the devils advocate here but Oh God is an exclamation in the same way as bloody Americans is

 

[Alc]

Well I wouldn't want to be seen as playing the devils advocate here but Oh God is an exclamation in the same way as bloody Americans is

I don't see it?
If I say 'Oh God', it's a general expression of surprise or frustration. Same as 'Bl**dy hell'.
If I say 'Bloody Americans' I'm moaning about Americans or somethings that something that Americans have done.

 

[Rich]

I don't see it?
If I say 'Oh God', it's a general expression of surprise or frustration. Same as 'Bl**dy hell'.
If I say 'Bloody Americans' I'm moaning about Americans or somethings that something that Americans have done.

Or something that you're surprised or frustrated with that the Americans have done

 

[Rabbie]

I thought Jesus was now pretty well accepted as a historical figure?

Outside the bible there are virtually no references to him.

 

[JamesLast99]

It's well accepted that Jesus was a very common name and that saying that Jesus didn't exist is like saying that Steven didn't exist in 1975. There were plenty of them.

It's far from accepted that he had anything to do with one or more gods.

Are you saying he didn't exist?

 

[Rabbie]

Are you saying he didn't exist?

I won't presume to answer for Alc but IMHO there is no evidence outside of the bible that he did exist. This does not mean he didn't exist - the growth of Christianity so soon after his crucifiction is a good indicator that he did. There are several contradictions in the Bible about his family tree and in other details. There is a suggestion that a certain amount of spin was applied to the story to make it fit in with some old testament prophecies.

 

[Rich]

There are several contradictions in the Bible about his family tree and in other details. There is a suggestion that a certain amount of spin was applied to the story to make it fit in with some old testament prophecies.

Like claiming that his mother was a virgin, yeah right

 

[Alc]

Are you saying he didn't exist?

I'm saying nobody knows for sure. The only real evidence (for want of a better word) is in the Bible and that contains so many self-contradictory statements, omissions and errors that it can be discounted.

He certainly isn't an established historical figure in the same way that someone like Napoleon, Hitler or Alexander the Great were.

 

[JamesLast99]

I'm saying nobody knows for sure. The only real evidence (for want of a better word) is in the Bible and that contains so many self-contradictory statements, omissions and errors that it can be discounted.

He certainly isn't an established historical figure in the same way that someone like Napoleon, Hitler or Alexander the Great were.

But you don't beleive in him?

 

[Alc]

But you don't beleive in him?

'The' Jesus as a person, or one of many people sharing that name - existed or not, I have no idea.
Jesus as the son of God or whatever - no, I don't.

 

[JamesLast99]

Why don't you beleive he was the son of God if you aren't too sure if he existed?

 

[Alc]

Why don't you beleive he was the son of God if you aren't too sure if he existed?

I am sure, based on everything I have ever seen, heard or read, that God does not exist. Since God does not exist, he cannot have had a son.

 

[JamesLast99]

But you discount God cos there is no earthly evidence - presented with earthly evidence you dismiss it out of hand cos something you don't believe in can't have evidence?

 

[Alc]

But you discount God cos there is no earthly evidence - presented with earthly evidence you dismiss it out of hand cos something you don't believe in can't have evidence?

1) Yes I do discount God ($3.50 this week, down from $5.00)
2) I have never seen any earthly evidence of God (for 'seen', read 'seen, heard, read, etc.'). Saying that someone is the son of God is not evidence that God exists, any more than me saying I'm the son of a werewolf makes werewolves exist.

 

[JamesLast99]

1) Yes I do discount God ($3.50 this week, down from $5.00)
2) I have never seen any earthly evidence of God (for 'seen', read 'seen, heard, read, etc.'). Saying that someone is the son of God is not evidence that God exists, any more than me saying I'm the son of a werewolf makes werewolves exist.

Then what is?

 

[Alc]

Then what is?

Are you genuinely expressing surprise that that 'proof' wasn't accepted?
Really?

I am assuming that B existed. Therefore, A must exist because it created B.

One has to be proven in isolation from the other for either to stand.
Either
1) Prove that God exists, in which case Jesus may have been his son. Even in this case, there is no evidence that thw two were related.
2) Prove that Jesus existed and had powers and abilities that can't be explained away by anything other than his having a supernatural origin. Again, this doesn;tprove that he was related to the big G.

 

[JamesLast99]

Yes but what evidence would you regard as proof? Or even to hedge your bets?

 

[Alc]

Yes but what evidence would you regard as proof? Or even to hedge your bets?

This is like me asking you what you consider evidence of thye existence of a centaur, but for argument's sake:

God would need to appear in front of me and does a few things that couldn't possibly be done by any human being, even with the use of the most advanced technology imaginable. e.g. bring back someone of my choosing from the dead.

He would also need to provide easily understandable proof to me that the universe didn't come into existence at random. Since he can do anything, this one would be a doddle for him.