Riots in the USA - just an excuse to let off energy?

[Jon]

Tera, I am neither upset nor disappointed that you have brought that up. In fact, I am very pleased! I would say it has nothing to do with Trump though, at least regarding how I form my opinions on this matter. If you made that assumption about why I think the way I do, then maybe you also assume that racism is the cause of the death or George Floyd. I prefer to not make assumptions, but to view things objectively, with a neutral viewpoint, just as you suggest I don't.

I cannot read any of that as it seems that you need a subscription. Can you post a quote or something? Or a chart?

 

[deletedT]

I didn’t know it needs a subscription. I’m on Firefox and can see the page.
I’m on my phone and can’t copy/paste but give me several minutes.

 

[Jon]

Maybe when you get the chance to reply, you can answer this question: What do you believe should be the correct rate of force against black people compared to white people?

 

[deletedT]

I wasn’t able to copy the charts. Here’s the text’

Video of George Floyd’s last conscious moments horrified the nation, spurring protests that have led to curfews and National Guard interventions in many large cities.

But for the black community in Minneapolis — where Mr. Floyd died after an officer pressed a knee into his neck for 8 minutes 46 seconds — seeing the police use some measure of force is disturbingly common.

About 20 percent of Minneapolis’s population of 430,000 is black. But when the police get physical — with kicks, neck holds, punches, shoves, takedowns, Mace, Tasers or other forms of muscle — nearly 60 percent of the time the person subject to that force is black. And that is according to the city’s own figures.



Community leaders say the frequency with which the police use force against black residents helps explain a fury in the city that goes beyond Mr. Floyd’s death, which the medical examiner ruled a homicide.

Since 2015, the Minneapolis police have documented using force about 11,500 times. For at least 6,650 acts of force, the subject of that force was black.

By comparison, the police have used force about 2,750 times against white people, who make up about 60 percent of the population.

All of that means that the police in Minneapolis used force against black people at a rate at least seven times that of white people during the past five years.

Those figures reflect the total number of acts of force used by the Minneapolis police since 2015. So if an officer slapped, punched and body-pinned one person during the same scuffle, that may be counted as three separate acts of force. There have been about 5,000 total episodes since 2015 in which the police used at least one act of force on someone.

The disparities in the use of force in Minneapolis parallel large racial gaps in vital measures in the city, like income, education and unemployment, said David Schultz, a professor at Hamline University in St. Paul who has studied local police tactics for two decades.

“It just mirrors the disparities of so many other things in which Minneapolis comes in very badly,” Mr. Schultz said.

When he taught a course years ago on potential liability officers face in the line of duty, Mr. Schultz said, he would describe Minneapolis as “a living laboratory on everything you shouldn’t do when it comes to police use of force.”

 

[Jon]

Thanks for that. I've had to truncate the text for copyright reasons and fair use.

 

[deletedT]

Maybe when you get the chance to reply, you can answer this question: What do you believe should be the correct rate of force against black people compared to white people?

To be true I don’t like the system at all. Not even One injury or death should be allowed during arrest and before a fair trial.
The police is giving death penalty even before trial.But if this is US system and killing each other is a daily habit, at least equal numbers in a rate should be fair.

@Jon I saw a clip where a black guy was sitting and talking to two white officers. He didn’t even raise his voice. After a while the officers didn’t like his logic and arrested him. While searching his pocket for a weapon they found his ID. He was a FBI agent. They released him. The question is if he deserved to be arrested, why he was released. They simply found out they have nothing against him and taking to the station makes their own position harder. How about if he wasn’t an agent? He was arrested, put behind bars and what? Who would believe he’s innocent?
As I said earlier, search for PoliceBrutality in any social network app and watch the clips. What I see what the armed forces are doing to their own people makes me sick. They are there to put the society in order but see they’ve ended to.

I wish I could show you what China is broadcasting. It’s a shame to see how they humiliate the country that used to be the source of everything, Democracy to freedom. While US is sinking deeper and deeper in Democrats VS Republican, White vs Black, they are spreading their power over Asia an Europe. Someday you open your eyes, and I hope it’s not too late.

 

[Jon]

I understand the point you are making. Let me give a counter example. If I saw a black guy mugging a white lady, does that mean all black guys are muggers? Feeling emotional and disgusted about individual clips on YouTube, while abhorrent, does not mean all police officers behave that way. In the individual instance you state, I do not know any background to that.

Do you have an approximate answer to my question regarding force verses black and white? I bring this up because you used it as evidence to support your view that my view was wrong regarding no evidence of racism regarding George Floyd. And that is why I was pleased you brought up that statistic. I am curious what you believe the ratio should be.

 

[Steve R.]

Can someone please explain to me why the unlawful death of George Floyd was because of racism?

You may get upset with this reply, but I really think if you’re looking for an answer, you should put your support for president trump aside and look at the events from a neutralized point of view. You give evidence of white being killed by black but you don’t pay attention to the rate.

Minneapolis Police Use Force Against Black People at 7 Times the Rate of Whites (Published 2020)

When the officers use kicks, chokeholds, punches, takedowns, Mace spray, Tasers and the like, the person subject to that force is black about 60 percent of the time.

www.nytimes.com

@Tera you are referencing isolated naked facts (Police use force against Black people at 7 times the rate of White people) out of context. Stories always have two sided. On side, which is seldom discussed in the US, concerns the involvement of the Black community in the commission of crimes. It is possible that the police are reacting to the provocations by those they (police) are confronting.

Additionally, attempting to imply that viewpoints are being distorted by one's attitude toward Trump, is wrong. The issue of police violence against the Black Community has existed for years. The Obama/Biden administration was in charge of this country for eight years. These issues still exist.

 

[Jon]

I would like Tera to answer himself what he thinks the ratio should be. Because if he says it, its true. If I say it, he will doubt me. But once he commits his position for why he believes the ratio should be X:Y, then we can discuss why that may not be the case. There are some unpalatable and undebatable facts regarding all of this. I am itching to get to it!

[Edit: I think Tera underestimates how much of an independent thinker I am. The reason I disagree with people (usually the crowd) about many issues is because I form my own conclusions. Just look at my debates on this forum behind closed doors, for example. If Trump thinks X, it does not follow that I think X because he does.]

 

[deletedT]

Additionally, attempting to imply that viewpoints are being distorted by one's attitude toward Trump, is wrong. The issue of police violence against the Black Community has existed for years. The Obama/Biden administration was in charge of this country for eight years.

As I said earlier, I’m not a US citizen and I don’t know a lot of your situations and above all I’ve never been interested in politic except these few months. What I said is what the people out of US see, or at least the way our people see it.
I think since President Trump started his campaign, the crack between white and black is getting wider and deeper. I even watched a documentary shown KKK’s more active than before. They even had interviews with several members.

@Jon I really don’t understand your question. I’ve only read a lot of articles that shows Police behaves much more violent against blacks than whites. And all clips I’ve seen proves that.
I can’t offer you the number in rate you’re asking, but I think Police should see both sides equally.

I’ve been searching web since yesterday for a chart that shows the exact number of people who died while being arrested and a comparison between their race but couldn’t find any.
Let me ask you something. How many (approximately) white people died while being arrested during these few past years? It’s not a tricky question. I really want to know.

 

[deletedT]

@Steve R. Don’t you accept the crack between different races in US getting wider since President Trump is in office?

 

[NauticalGent]

@Steve R. Don’t you accept the crack between different races in US getting wider since President Trump is in office?

Good morning Tera, I assume you do. I for one do not know so will not offer an opinion. If my assumption is correct, what can you provide as evidence to this, other than what the media potrays?

 

[deletedT]

Good night. (I’ll be in bed in half an hour. First time to go to bed before 10PM during the last few years)

What can you provide as evidence to this, other than what the media potrays?

Nothing. I’m not there and all I have is news and social network.
Isn’t really any difference between now and pre president Trump?

 

[NauticalGent]

Good night. (I’ll be in bed in half an hour. First time to go to bed before 10PM during the last few years)


Nothing. I’m not there and all I have is news and social network.
Isn’t really any difference between now and pre president Trump?

Get some sleep! Again, I have no idea. It is very subjective and without any real metric to use, all any of us are doing is offering opinions based on personal beliefs.

 

[Steve R.]

@Steve R. Don’t you accept the crack between different races in US getting wider since President Trump is in office?

No. The Obama/Biden administration reignited racism in the US. Progress was being made. Don't forget that the media during the Obama administration was positive towards Obama, but after Trump was elected become virulently anti-Trump which has been expressed through race baiting (ie: magnifying the problem). Media bias exists and needs to be considered as affecting your viewpoint.

 

[Jon]

@Tera, I do not know what you know about crime in the USA so I will assume nothing.

There is an important bit of data you need to know. Blacks carry out murder at roughly 7 times the rate of whites. Given that, the use of force when arresting a murderer is likely to be far higher than a non-murderer. Because blacks are disproportionately represented in murder and violent crimes, the use of force in arresting these suspects is likely to be far higher than if arresting a white person. I would suggest that the ratio is representative of the nature of black crime verses white crime.

Data from 1908 to 2008, for example, shows 52.5% of all murders are by black offenders, yet they only represent 13% of the population.

The same sort of statistics hold up for ra** and violent crime.

Another issue is drugs. I do not have any data for this, and so to a degree I am forming an assumption. But the assumption is this: hard drug use is much more prevelant within the black community than the white community. Part of my rational for this assumption is that where there is poverty, there is much more hard drug use. And so it follows. So, if a police officer is going to arrest someone who is black, they are much more likely to be on drugs compared to if they are white. Therefore, they could be more unpredictable or dangerous. Given that police officers then build a history of understanding about this, their experience may show that arresting black men is much more dangerous than arresting white men, on average. This could lead to the use of more force as a precaution for self-preservation.

Just something else to throw in the mix...Are you aware that George Floyd was not exactly a saint regarding risking other peoples lives? He held a gun against a pregnant woman's stomach during a robbery, threatening to kill her and her child.

 

[deletedT]

Well, now that I have a better view of crime in US, I’d appreciate if you can clarify some other questions bothering me lately.

1- As I had guessed and you declare above, seems that the black community is sank deeper in poverty than white. What’s the reason behind this? Doesn’t it concern the racial difference in the society?
2- Most of what I see from news and social networks, the black suspect is on the ground and several officers around. I’m very eager to know why they should be beaten, even if the rate of crime in black community is higher or they are more dangerous to society.


As the answer to your question, yes I knew that. I also read that he had drugs in his system too. He MAY even had murdered somebody. But he had the right to face a trial. That said, All videos from all angles doesn’t show he was resisting. He was on the ground with two officers on him, another two around. So what do you think made the officers kill him. Did the officer really thought he’s a dangerous guy, or simply he hated blacks and didn’t lower the pressure of his knee on his neck?

 

[AccessBlaster]

Maybe not now but in the future we should focus just a we bit on some of the good this country has done. We have gone from slavery through Jim Crow to freely electing our very first Black President, I am personally proud of that even though I am conservative not a Republican.

How many countries that are represented here today can say that. We will never be perfect, we strive to find middle ground for all citizens. My hope is everybody has a fair shot at the American dream, nothing more and certainly nothing less.

 

[Steve R.]

@Steve R. Don’t you accept the crack between different races in US getting wider since President Trump is in office?

Since my prior response to you, a new item of interest popped-up on the news relative to your question; that of Colin Kaepernick. This is one of those "small" stories, one of many such stories that would absolve the Trump administration of media claims that his administration is promoting racism since claims of "rampant" racism were being actively made before Trump assumed office..

The Trump administration assumed office in January 2017. On August 26, 2016, before Trump took office, Kaepernick did not stand for the US national anthem proclaiming “I am not looking for approval. I have to stand up for people that are oppressed.” His decision to "demonstrate" to raise the issue of racism points to the existence of underlying problems that existed prior to Trump assuming office. Kaepernick's demonstration of public civil disobedience has continued and grown. I would contend that the explosive response (rioting protesting) to the death of George Floyd can be attributed, in part, to unresolved issues that existed prior to the Trump administration taking office.

 

[Jon]

Well, now that I have a better view of crime in US, I’d appreciate if you can clarify some other questions bothering me lately.

1- As I had guessed and you declare above, seems that the black community is sank deeper in poverty than white. What’s the reason behind this? Doesn’t it concern the racial difference in the society?
2- Most of what I see from news and social networks, the black suspect is on the ground and several officers around. I’m very eager to know why they should be beaten, even if the rate of crime in black community is higher or they are more dangerous to society.


As the answer to your question, yes I knew that. I also read that he had drugs in his system too. He MAY even had murdered somebody. But he had the right to face a trial. That said, All videos from all angles doesn’t show he was resisting. He was on the ground with two officers on him, another two around. So what do you think made the officers kill him. Did he really thought he’s a dangerous guy, or simply he hated blacks and didn’t lower the pressure of his knee on his neck?

I am happy to take a stab at these things that bother you, because they are likely to bother other people too.

1. I do not know all the reasons for rampant poverty across black neighbourhoods. But let me make some guestimates.

a) Ghettos can become cyclical in nature. You see what goes on around you and do the same. When you see violence, murder, ra**, drugs, you can end up doing the same. Drug pushers have status in poor communities. They have money. Also, you may become violent yourself to protect yourself. Look at Mike Tysons story. He was picked on as a kid. Couldn't even go into school due to violent bullying. He became violent himself in the end.

b) Poverty is rife when you have absent fathers. And the rate of absentee fathers is far higher in the black community than the white. If you are brought up without a father in the family, the child is more likely to become a criminal, suffer depression and many other negative consequences.

c) Victimhood. Blaming everybody else but your own community can lead you to point the figure elsewhere and never solve the root cause. For example, blaming police officers for unfair treatment of your own citizens is all well and good. But when you ignore the fact that 95% of murders in your own community are by other black men, then you are failing to address the biggest threat to life. I say get your own house in order!

d) Education. I think it must be tough in some of these rough inner city ghettos to get a good education, be you white, black, hispanic or whatever.

2. This is what is called media bias. Maybe you are not aware, but 95% of media outlets in the USA are Democrat biased. So, if you look amongst multiple media outlets there, you will see a barrage of bile and hate against Trump. You will also see the Democrat narrative that Republicans are racists, its Trumps fault and so on. It is easy to live in this echo chamber of thoughts, where everybody pats one another on the back for how virtueseome they are all. But when push comes to shove, socialist evangelists like Bernie Sanders, who wants to increase the minimum wage to $15, should be asked why he doesn't pay his own staff that.

Let me give you another example of media bias. The French shootings when Islamists attacked in Paris. There was about 100 dead or so. Worldwide news. What became apparent to me was that Boko Haram had around the same time killed over 300 people in Africa. It got something like a 15 word mention in the paper. So, you get a far worse incident and it barely gets mentioned, verses worldwide coverage of the Paris attacks.

If you think what you see on the media is a reflection of reality, you are in for a shock. They show what they want to show, to push - particularly in America - a political narrative.

Chicago had 490 murders in 2019. 71% of the murderers were black. Why is it only if a white person kills a black person it matters?

I’m very eager to know why they should be beaten, even if the rate of crime in black community is higher or they are more dangerous to society.

Who is saying they should be beaten? How many whites are also beaten?