Riots in the USA - just an excuse to let off energy?

@GinaWhipp - First, thank you for going through my comments, Gina.

I offer some thoughts in amplification/response to some of your comments.

You mentioned "getting over the past." I am not saying we must forget the past. We must learn from it because otherwise we will repeat it. But we cannot and SHOULD NOT try to change the past by "sanitizing" everything. If children are to learn what constitutes bad behavior, we have to TELL them what constitutes bad behavior, and that includes racist behavior, no matter how ugly it was. On a side but parallel note, this is why Germany passed laws making Holocaust Denial a crime.

My comments about stereotyping are simple: People do what they do because of what they believe to be true. So it would be entirely productive to root out the sources of those stereotypes as a way to counteract them. Just as my own childhood "image" fell away once I got to college and saw the counter-images, so a lot of people might learn that their ideas were based in erroneous viewpoints. I'll add that while spending 28 1/2 years as a Navy Contractor, I worked for 8 different companies (because that is the way government contracting works). The two best company presidents I ever worked for were black men I thoroughly respected. Jim S. and Leon H. took care of ALL of their people, black and white, and saw to it that we always got a fair shake. I am proud to say I knew them and glad I worked for them.

There is considerable talk about "white privilege" but I have to say that most of the time anyone uses that phrase, they CAN and SHOULD be laughed at. My dad was a firefighter, which is a strenuous and dangerous job. My mom worked her way through a small rural college to get an associate degree in business management but she still kept long hours to keep the job. Don't see much privilege there. I worked MY way through college as a musician playing long, late hours on Bourbon Street in the New Orleans French Quarter. Nothing was handed to ME on a silver platter. I worked for what I have. If I have ANY privilege, it is in the satisfaction of having earned what I have now. You alluded to this yourself. You have a job and can take care of yourself, for which I say "Good for you and I'm glad to know you."

I entered into this little diversion into "white privilege" to show another example of racial stereotyping - this time from the opposite direction. It does NOBODY any good to have false viewpoints, and I can see how you would be bothered by typical "black" stereotyping just as this case of "white" stereotyping bothers me.
 
White privilege is complete nonsense. After being told endlessly you cannot stereotype the black community, since when is it ok to stereotype the white community?

From Google's definition of racism:

the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
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Does it not then follow that "white privilege" is a racist term?

It does NOBODY any good to have false viewpoints,
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Truth is the only thing that matters.

A few other bits...

"2010 privilege" - is it not unfair that people born more recently will have a longer life expectancy, better treatment for disease, a higher standard of living? Privileged!

"Tall person privilege" - isn't it unfair that tall people have, on average, higher status, earn more, can play basketball? Unfair privilege.

"Average height privilege" - why is it fair that people of average height live longer on average than tall people? That is unfair privilege.

"Short height privilege" - isn't it wrong for short people to have more legroom in airplane seats relative to a tall person, larger food portions than they need at a restaurant and a smaller shopping bill? Privileged!
 
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NauticalGent said:
Not sure if it is sarcasm but in case it wasn't, after Gina's posts, I feel a bit like an insensitive jerk.

My intent was to stir up some mischief and not offend anyone. My judgement in these matters could use some improvement...I apologize to anyone if they feel I was making light of this issue.

I tend to not keep up with current events in the US. It's just too exhausting and I do NOT trust the media - at all. While I was living in Itsly, it was easy to ignore, but now that I am back, it is almost impossible...

So much more to say on this but I just do not of the gumption to write it out, instead I will let the only journalist I trust say it for me.

Please listen to the end, Ben Swann "gets it"

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Actually, not offended. Someone posted a video on Twitter that showed them driving along and *planting* them. They were in an apartment and so no real information could be gleamed but what he says is true. It was a mess but since exposed no more bricks have been showing up.
 
For those in England, a question: Fox News is showing protesters supporting "black lives matter" in London. Nothing wrong with that. Now the question, why all the emotional outpouring of grief for one incident in the US when there have been a numerous police and terrorist actions in other parts of the world. Hong Kong for instance? What about a memorial service concerning Tiananmen Square?
 
The_Doc_Man said:
@GinaWhipp - First, thank you for going through my comments, Gina.

I offer some thoughts in amplification/response to some of your comments.

You mentioned "getting over the past." I am not saying we must forget the past. We must learn from it because otherwise we will repeat it. But we cannot and SHOULD NOT try to change the past by "sanitizing" everything. If children are to learn what constitutes bad behavior, we have to TELL them what constitutes bad behavior, and that includes racist behavior, no matter how ugly it was. On a side but parallel note, this is why Germany passed laws making Holocaust Denial a crime.

My comments about stereotyping are simple: People do what they do because of what they believe to be true. So it would be entirely productive to root out the sources of those stereotypes as a way to counteract them. Just as my own childhood "image" fell away once I got to college and saw the counter-images, so a lot of people might learn that their ideas were based in erroneous viewpoints. I'll add that while spending 28 1/2 years as a Navy Contractor, I worked for 8 different companies (because that is the way government contracting works). The two best company presidents I ever worked for were black men I thoroughly respected. Jim S. and Leon H. took care of ALL of their people, black and white, and saw to it that we always got a fair shake. I am proud to say I knew them and glad I worked for them.

There is considerable talk about "white privilege" but I have to say that most of the time anyone uses that phrase, they CAN and SHOULD be laughed at. My dad was a firefighter, which is a strenuous and dangerous job. My mom worked her way through a small rural college to get an associate degree in business management but she still kept long hours to keep the job. Don't see much privilege there. I worked MY way through college as a musician playing long, late hours on Bourbon Street in the New Orleans French Quarter. Nothing was handed to ME on a silver platter. I worked for what I have. If I have ANY privilege, it is in the satisfaction of having earned what I have now. You alluded to this yourself. You have a job and can take care of yourself, for which I say "Good for you and I'm glad to know you."

I entered into this little diversion into "white privilege" to show another example of racial stereotyping - this time from the opposite direction. It does NOBODY any good to have false viewpoints, and I can see how you would be bothered by typical "black" stereotyping just as this case of "white" stereotyping bothers me.
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@The_Doc_Man

Actually, thank you! I always like seeing a different perspective than my own, I might learn something!

I was not suggesting that you were suggesting we *get over it*, I was saying that is what I frequently hear when past *mistakes* are brought up. The Tulsa Race Massacre, Redlining which dates back to 1933 (I think I got that right( and is STILL happening and is part of the reason Black people shy away from the Census, the education system and so much more. America has a history of sanitizing minorities history (good or bad) and contributions right out of existence.

You hit the nail on the head when it comes to stereotyping. It is unfortunate that for some this image will prevent them from even *trying* to see *the other side*. And I make no apologies as I too have had to catch myself from doing so to people that are like me. Sometimes you really need to look in the mirror and say *I have a problem, turns out I'm the racist.* You can't *fix* what you don't admit to yourself.

Okay, *white privilege*, this is a tough one to explain so I hope I say this correctly or so it is understood. It does mean what you think it means. It does not mean you had an easier time than me or my family. It means, if you are white...
  • You could choose where you wanted to live
  • You won't get followed if you walk into a high-end store, h*ll, any store
  • You can get ANY job you want (or are qualified for)
to name a few. See https://www.tolerance.org/magazine/fall-2018/what-is-white-privilege-really for more.) It is not stereotyping per sey.

It pains me to see so many people trying to make this about *white privilege* or racism because it is taking away from real issue, equality. The protest are not about George Floyd exactly. They are about years of having a knee on your neck and you fighting for *air* before the life flows out of you. And this time we *saw* it, there was *picture* of the pain felt everyday. George Floyd was just the last thread, the last straw. It was enough! No one wants anyone to apologize for their color but don't criminalize it because it is not the same as yours.

What is happening now... it's not about politics, it's not about racism, it's not a black and white thing, per se, it's about justice, it's about equality. Because people try to skew it towards politics and\pr racism is one of the reason I tend to stay out of the threads. (I don't do politics on line, you need to come to home or meet me a coffee shop so we can *see* each other and talk like adults.) So again, thank you, I won't *see* what you see with *this* what we are doing now. :)
 
Gina, I wonder how much of the discrimination you've faced is because you are a woman? I've been denied a raise because I was a woman. My boss thought I didn't need it since my husband worked and together we made more than he did because his wife stayed home??? I've been denied a credit card because I was a woman. I've been denied phone service because I was a woman. I had just moved to Miami (I had had a phone in my own name in Connecticut for three years) but the reason given was that I had just moved far from home and was going to want to call my mother so they were afraid I would rack up huge long distance charges. They would give me a phone but only if I paid an exorbitant deposit -- $300!!! In the days when the phone bill was around $15. I've had a credit card canceled because I got married and was apparently now unreliable. And many more. I am not a victim and I'm happy you don't consider yourself one either but any group that the people in power perceives in any way to be a threat is discriminated against.

I still remember fondly the first black person I ever met. Back in the era where we went to neighborhood schools (1950's), mine was all white even though we were poor and lived in public housing. Then in the third grade a new boy joined us. His father was a Baptist minister. He was an excellent student and every day he came to school in pressed pants and a blindly white shirt making all the other boys look scruffy. He was even more polite than the girls and the teacher loved him. I don't ever remember him being sent to the coat closet for misbehaving. He left an indelible positive impression. We probably would have been friends except that the boy's yard was on one side of the school and the girl's was on the other so not only didn't we mix during recess, we couldn't even see the other sex. Then for the 6th grade I had to move to a larger school that drew from a wider geographic area and there were lots of black kids. Some, were clean and pleasant and friendly and others were scruffy and disrespectful. And you could tell from how people dressed whether they were victims or not although I wasn't thinking in those terms back then. I was poor but my mother made sure my cloths were clean and neat and I was bathed and that's the way it was in the 50's. In high school, two of the most popular kids in the school were black. Our star football player and the lead cheerleader (which was a really big deal) were both black. Even though adults around me would say things that I now would consider racist, as a kid, I didn't actually see it since we all seemed to get along so the snarky remarks made by the adults just went over my head as "noise" because they didn't make any rational sense given my personal life experience. It wasn't until I took a job as a consultant and moved to Miami that I actually saw racism in action. In Miami, everyone hated the Cubans. For the life of me I couldn't figure out why. Why would people hate Cubans? In the north, we might have hated Puerto Ricans. I'm not sure but they were called spics which I assume was meant to be derogatory. It then occurred to me that they were different because they didn't all speak English and they were perceived as a threat because since they were refugees (the Cubans, the Puerto Ricans were actually Americans), they would take menial jobs for less pay than more established people would. I should point out that the black people in my department also didn't have any use for the Cubans.

As I reflect on all the black friends I've had over the years, they have one thing in common. They are not victims. They were rich, they were poor. They were men, they were woman, they were Americans, they were refugees, they were immigrants but they were NOT victims. I don't think I could ever be friends with a victim. Does that make me a racist if the victim is black because color has nothing to do with it?

So, I see this issue more as institutionalized victim-hood rather than institutionalized racism. When you tell people all their lives that they are victims, eventually they believe you and they act like victims and they feel they need to break out but the Democrats aren't having any of it. It is in the interest of the Democrats that they keep black people off balance but on the plantation (the inner city) of the current era. And to do that they tell them that it is OK to create an "identity". Be different. Name your children with made up names. Wear your pants so low your underwear shows which the vast majority of Americans consider repulsive. If I were hiring and a man applied for a job wearing pants that rode at his hips, I wouldn't hire him. Is that racist? Make up your own language. They should embrace their blackness and dress differently and talk differently than other Americans. The way immigrants become accepted is to assimilate but as long as the Democrats convince black people that it is the color of their skin rather than their "differentness" that generates the discrimination (and there is some although it is not systemic) they will never achieve integration if that is the goal. The Democrats are encouraging the Balkanization of America. They are slicing and dicing us and herding us into various pens to keep us apart so we don't mix and become friends because if we ever become friends, they'll loose there control over us. If you're an immigrant, don't learn English, we'll take care of you because you're a victim since no one will hire you because your accent is so heavy you can't be understood over the phone. Americans who speak out about learning English to assimilate are called names. The fact that you need to be literate in English to become a citizen means nothing. The backs of our ballots are printed with instructions in Spanish!!! Why, if you have to pass a test on your English language skills to become a citizen would we ever need to print voting instructions in Spanish? Are we encouraging non-citizens to vote? The rule about learning English isn't because English is superior in any way, it is because the political discourse takes place in English and you will never understand the issues if you can't follow the conversation. That leaves you to rely on "interpreters" who tell you what the issues are and you have no idea whether or not they are being accurate or giving you their opinion. Anyone who has ever listened to a Trump speech and then listened to Rachael Maddow tell you what she thinks he said understands my point perfectly. To those of you who are not Americans but are interested in understanding what is making us all so crazy, I suggest that you listen to a Trump speech. Not one of his rallies. He is not the great orator he fancies himself as. At least with a prepared speech, he mostly sticks to the tele-prompter and doesn't go off script too often. Then after the speech is over and while it is still fresh in your mind. Listen to the talking heads on CNN or MSNBC explain it to you. More than likely, you will be scratching your head. Is that the same speech I just heard or am I listening to some talking head's opinion of what Trump said. Once you see how distorted the analysis is, you may have some sense of why Trump tweets and why he talks about fake news all the time.

If America were the hateful, racist country that the left tells you we are, why do people of color from all over the world strive to come here? Because they know that they can make it here if they work at it. We have rule of law (except in some Democrat run cities where you can burn police cars and loot stores and be released in a few hours without bail so you can do it again the next day) so your gains are protected and you don't have to bribe the authorities for protection and we will give you a chance. My step-mother is black and from Nevis. She came here after college and got her PhD and taught math in a college in New Haven (not Yale). She also authored three math textbooks. She made it because she wasn't a victim and along with math, she did her best to teach her students to not be victims either.

We really need to focus on giving a hand up rather than a hand-out. Hand-outs are demeaning and they imply that you can't do for yourself because you're a victim.

Education is key but not expensive college degrees in basket weaving or women's studies. We need apprenticeships and on-the-job training programs. Trump's daughter Ivanka is creating great programs to improve training in the workplace. She's a Democrat (as is her husband who is part of Trump's inner circle) for those of you who don't know.

FYI, I think it was Jesse Jackson who coined the term "African-American". My step-mother hates the term. Probably because she's not from Africa. She's from Nevis and given the current scientific opinion, the human race evolved somewhere near the great rift valley in Africa so technically speaking, we're all African-Americans under the skin.

One more point about my step-mother who is now 89. She voted for Obama in 2008 because he was black. But, she is not a stupid woman and so she voted for Romney in 2012. Not that Romney was any bargain but he wasn't a Marxist who hated America and that was her objection to Obama along with his blatant racism.
 
I just saw this cartoon. It says it all.
CNN Word Processor.JPG
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Jon
Pat, you are so right! I was astonished today, when I found out our "impartial" BBC in the UK completely misled the public about what Trump said regarding George Floyd and the job numbers. The way it was portrayed, Trump was saying that George Floyd must be looking down and being pleased about the job figures! But today, I heard the part just before that the BBC left out, where Trump was talking about everybody deserves the right to justice and to be treated fairly. Yet the BBC just clipped that context out to mislead the public. I am disgusted with them!!
 
Pat Hartman said:
Micron, Trump was never accused by anyone that I am aware of that he groped them
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Right, Trump didn't have to be accused of it because he boasted about it and was recorded doing so. Puts Biden in the same league IF he's guilty of anything.
 
@Pat Hartman

So that was a lot to take in...

Being a woman - FIRST, they would have to get past the part that I was Black to even realize I was a woman to even get the job let alone a raise. So, how would I know the difference? Understand?

That said, I was fortunate, my first job was working for hour Jewish obstetricians. Those doctors were great the other staff however, was not, won't go into that or rather them. I then got a job working for two Jewish bothers for whom I worked for for almost twenty years. They sent me to their bank to open a bank account with their personal banker. So, never needed credit, just saved so I could pay cash for everything. I was living in Brooklyn, New York at this time and no one asked me for a deposit to get a phone in my name and by then I was a single Mom (Kicked *Dad* to the curb.) The reason I mention that they were Jewish is because from the time I was young I was *told* you want a fair shake work for Jews. Never knew why and never even thought to question it. (Grew up in a Jewish neighborhood so that might e why.)

I am NOT a victim and I know of no one personally that thinks of themselves that way. Again, read my other replies, this goes beyond politics and is EVERYONE'S fault regardless of political affiliation. So, let's leave politics out of it.

Again, please read my replies, no one wants *handouts* just equality. As for *pants hanging down* geez, who doesn't that irritate. You can't show up to work for me like that either. As for African-American, Toni Morrison said it best, "In this country American means white. Everybody else has to hyphenate." and she's right and wrong. American should mean Indian. My family line goes to Barbados so yeah, who wants to be called African-American when not from Africa. But the truth is it's better than some of the other *names* they have tried to use so I'm good. I just check *Other* and move along.

America is not a hateful, racist country, some, let me say that again, some people are. And it seems they, the some, are making it look bad. Lumping an entire country into the same basket... it only muddies the waters. We are seeing that now there is an outcry from all walks of life, young and old, from around the world. "There is not enough darkness to put out the light of even one small candle." (Can't remember who said that) But (and here comes another saying, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” ― Edmund Burke.

Again, read my posts, I do not support looting but I get it. Looting, burning etc. just muddies the waters but I get it. I get the grief, I get the anger, I get the exhaustion, I get it.

Your stating *what we need* but how would you know? And again, you are *telling* what's needed and not asking what's needed. (Please don't take personally like I am attacking you. I am simply pointing out the overall problem.) People keep *telling* what's needed instead of sitting down and listening. I hear an outcry for equality and justice in the truest sense of the word.

Hmm, I will say this about Trump, I am a New Yorker (I may not live there anymore but it's in my blood.). I grew up with him and his daddy's antics. I will not listen to him, I will never vote for him, I know who and what he is. There was a daily dose of him almost every day, his father was low key. He has not changed. And that ends my discussion on him.
 
And again, you are *telling* what's needed and not asking what's needed.
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Based on many conversations with people who have been there, done that. Please tell me where you think I am wrong.
 
@GinaWhipp
Many thanks for your eloquent contributions to this thread. I wish all contributors showed the same degree of understanding and, frankly, impartiality.
 
Pat Hartman said:
Based on many conversations with people who have been there, done that. Please tell me where you think I am wrong.
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Not *wrong* but not *listening*. Equality, not another hand out no matter how well intended is still a hand out You have had a conversation with the many people in your circle, well your circle needs to overlap with the next circle and so on and then we ALL need to listen. I have a circle of friends (and family) and we used to sit around talking about how to fix the problem, how to bring about equality. You know what we discovered? Our Ideas worked great for *our* circle but were a horrible ideas for other neighborhoods, areas... circles because we needed to embrace all of them together.

I am not suggesting your *wrong* per se but you can't give a diagnosis until you have ALL of the symptoms. And no one has them yet.
 
Yet the BBC just clipped that context out to mislead the public. I am disgusted with them!!
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The idiocy of it is mind boggling. Trump says enough stupid stuff all by himself. All they have to do is to report is what he says. They don't even have to warp it and yet they feel the need to do so. I think the public is waking up to the soft coup that the Democrats with the aid of the media are trying to perpetrate. Just because they aren't using guns doesn't mean this isn't a coup attempt. Not being a politician before hand, Trump didn't come into office with his own "people" and so had to leave many Obama appointees in place and every single one of them has been working night and day to undermine Trumps policies. Either by leaking to the press or simply slow-walking what they can't actually stop and that includes Mitch McConnell, the Senate Majority leader. At least Paul Ryan, the speaker of the House for trump's first two years is gone but he did a lot of damage at a time when the Republicans had control of all three branches and could have actually implemented meaningful change. Can you imagine the CIA, DOJ, and the FBI actually lying to an incoming president because the outgoing President wanted them to? It is unheard of. I used to think Trump was being a little paranoid but not any more. No one wants to see Obama do a perp walk so he would never be charged with anything. His minions are going to have to take one for the team so he can walk.
 
Jon said:
Pat, you are so right! I was astonished today, when I found out our "impartial" BBC in the UK completely misled the public about what Trump said regarding George Floyd and the job numbers. The way it was portrayed, Trump was saying that George Floyd must be looking down and being pleased about the job figures! But today, I heard the part just before that the BBC left out, where Trump was talking about everybody deserves the right to justice and to be treated fairly. Yet the BBC just clipped that context out to mislead the public. I am disgusted with them!!
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Taken as a whole, Trump's comments were still insensitive and totally inappropriate.
Your accusations of bias by the BBC with respect to this speech are, in my opinion, ludicrous.
 
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