Riots in the USA - just an excuse to let off energy?

Gina, If you read my post (I know it is way too long), I was not suggesting hand outs. Hand outs do not work. I was suggesting "hand ups" which are things like training and low cost daycare because they help people get up a step. They don't keep them in place and dependent which is what the Democrats want. It is welfare reforms that have decimated the black family in the inner city. Being an unwed mother is a sure ticket to the bottom which is why Planned Parenthood results in more abortions than live births in many black communities. It is hard to break out of the cast of your birth (be happy you weren't born in India to untouchables) but I can assure you that I don't speak like the rest of my family. I speak the way I write. I had to teach myself to speak the way my teachers spoke so I would sound like an educated person. My family was poor and uneducated. When my parents divorced when I was 12 and I became "mother" to my two younger brothers as our mother took a minimum wage job to put food on the table, I said, "this isn't happening to me". I educated my self and pulled myself out of poverty.
 
See, the BBC didn't have to distort Trump's words. Colin thinks they were stupid enough without enhancement.
 
See, the BBC didn't have to distort Trump's words. Colin thinks they were stupid enough without enhancement.

I'm saying the BBC didn't distort Trump's words.
 
You both speak eloquently and passionately about your life experiences. Issues relating to inequalities need to be acknowledged by persons other than African Americans. This is one piece of a very complex issue. It will not resolve other issues within the community but at least the conversation has started. We all come from a place of our own life experiences.
 
Taken as a whole, Trump's comments were still insensitive and totally inappropriate.
Your accusations of bias by the BBC with respect to this speech are, in my opinion, ludicrous.
No need to be unnecessarily rude about it, unless it is because of your personal hatred of me.

I've explained why the BBC was biased by clipping off the highly relevant context, but you haven't given any reason why you think it isn't. If you only leave in the end of one part of what he said and then the new part about jobs, it misleads people into thinking he is saying that George Floyd is pleased about the job situation. And that is clearly not what Trump is saying. But it has been portrayed that way.
 
For anyone who thinks Trump is not being misportrayed, let me quote the guardian:

Their headline:
'Revolting': Trump condemned for saying George Floyd is praising US economy

Their quote from Trump:
“Hopefully George is looking down right now and saying this a great thing that’s happening for our country,” he said. “There’s a great day for him. It’s a great day for everybody. It’s a great day for everybody. There’s a great, great day in terms of equality.”

But here is his speech in full:

"Equal justice under the law must mean that every American receives equal treatment in every encounter with law enforcement regardless of race, color, gender, or creed," Trump said. "They have to receive fair treatment from law enforcement. They have to receive it. We all saw what happened last week. We can't let that happen."

He continued, "Hopefully, George is looking down right now and saying, 'This is a great day that's happening for our country.' It's a great day for him. It's a great day for everybody. This is a great day for everybody. This is a great day in terms of equality. It's really what our Constitution requires and it's what our country is all about."


If that is not a case of misrepresentation and taking things out of context, I don't know what is.
 
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No need to be unnecessarily rude about it, unless it is because of your personal hatred of me.

I've explained why the BBC was biased by clipping off the highly relevant context, but you haven't given any reason why you think it isn't. If you only leave in the end of one part of what he said and then the new part about jobs, it misleads people into thinking he is saying that George Floyd is pleased about the job situation. And that is clearly not what Trump is saying. But it has been portrayed that way.

I wasn't at all rude in my comments nor were they in any way based on whatever my opinion of you may or may not be.

Trump's words, even within the context of the whole speech were inappropriate.
As President, he should be trying to heal divisions, not add to them.

EDIT
As you've taken the trouble to add the longer quote, I will say that the first part was appropriate and if he had stopped there, he should have received praise for his comments.
 
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You don't need to hide your opinion because I already know what it is. I am under no illusion. Calling someones views ludicrous in my book is rude. You obviously think otherwise.

Trump's words, even within the context of the whole speech were inappropriate.
As President, he should be trying to heal divisions, not add to them.
So saying that people should have equal treatment under the law and that what happened to George Floyd should never happen, that is trying to divide? If Obama said it, would it then still be viewed as divisive?

But that actually sidestepped the claim that the BBC was not biased and trying to mislead. You have failed to address that at all. Or perhaps you believe the Guardian comment? Or is that not misleading either?
 
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Gina, If you read my post (I know it is way too long), I was not suggesting hand outs. Hand outs do not work. I was suggesting "hand ups" which are things like training and low cost daycare because they help people get up a step. They don't keep them in place and dependent which is what the Democrats want. It is welfare reforms that have decimated the black family in the inner city. Being an unwed mother is a sure ticket to the bottom which is why Planned Parenthood results in more abortions than live births in many black communities. It is hard to break out of the cast of your birth (be happy you weren't born in India to untouchables) but I can assure you that I don't speak like the rest of my family. I speak the way I write. I had to teach myself to speak the way my teachers spoke so I would sound like an educated person. My family was poor and uneducated. When my parents divorced when I was 12 and I became "mother" to my two younger brothers as our mother took a minimum wage job to put food on the table, I said, "this isn't happening to me". I educated my self and pulled myself out of poverty.
Oops, you are correct, you did not use that term, you said, "We need apprenticeships and on-the-job training programs...." In my mind that sounds like *hand-outs*. A lot to unpack... I was an unwed mother, not a ticket to the bottom. My best friend was an unwed mother nope, shed too is doing quite well with a 6 figure salary. So, again, let's stop lumping every group (or type) together. I am also leaving out all the politics because I will repeat it muddies the waters and misses the point.

Planned Parenthood? They do a lot for women's health that went way beyond abortions and that would require a whole new thread. I think I will *yield my time* on this subject.

I didn't low cost day care, I *needed* a fair paying job, that's equality. Had that happened I wouldn't have been concerned about low-cost (just for me) day care. Also of note, the welfare system, which desperately needs reform, is a joke. So, I had to take off of work because I had Ocular Histoplasmosis. My disability was going to take a little while to process so I figured what the h*ck I should go get help, my daughter needs to eat. I go to the welfare office and I was literally told I had to empty my bank account (not like there was a lot of money in it, I just paid rent. And then the women had the nerve to comment on my clothing! Oh, not they were *bad* looking but the fact they were not *off-the-rack and I probably shop at Macy's. I bit my lip and left. I moved my meager saving over to a friends account waited a week and went back. When they asked where the money went, I had to lie! That's right I had to lie and say it was repayment for a loan. After all of that I finally got some food stamps which is all I needed even though they desperately tried to *push* me to taking money. And then to get off of it once my disability came thru I had to get my boss to write a letter because my word wasn't good enough that I no longer needed it! Welfare is designed to keep you dependent, they really need to fix that system. I have to wonder if they are making money off of the people that are on it. Hmm, yep need a new thread for that!

I remember my childhood and the words of my mother, "Read a book!". Can I watch TV? Read a book! It's raining outside what are we going to do? Read a book! I taught myself coding by reading a book (well actually more than one). I learned how to install a sink by reading a book. I learned to speak the King's English by reading a book. (I used to have a heavy West Indian accent which I can only *call* up when I am angry.) I learned about american history by reading a lot of books. So, if we are talking about *breaking out of a cast*, my is because I could read a book.

Then came my brother and sister, twins and yes I became Mom to them as Mom was working two shifts. So, twins, college and a part time job, all while *keeping house*. I do not think because of I had any disadvantage. My Mom went from High School to Nursing School. I learned to sew (yep, another book) so I could sew clothes so Mom didn't have to spend *that* money. The only other person that went to college before me was my uncle because they only had money for him. But my Mom did what she needed to do so I could go because she knew I wanted to.

Life is hard but it gets harder when the job that pays others $15.00 (using as an example) only pays me $10.00 and hour. I need to work longer or at two jobs to do the same thing other persons can do with one job. So again I say, equality, that's all that is required.
 
For information and to inject some accuracy, the Guardian actually did quote the previous section of his speech.
See https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/05/trump-george-floyd-comments-economy-unemployment

As not everyone nay have access to the full article, here's the part of it I'm referring to:
Defenders of Trump argued that he was being willfully misconstrued. America First Action, a pro-Trump Super Political Action Committee, claimed in a tweet that his remark was taken “out of context”. Moments before referencing Floyd, Trump had said: “Equal justice under the law must mean that every American receives equal treatment in every encounter with law enforcement, regardless of race, color, gender or creed.”

@Jon
Please stop making assumptions about my opinions.
 
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I would be interested to see a list of what the Left think are America's biggest and most important issues, and what the Right's list is. Maybe there is some overlap, maybe not. Perhaps someone from the US can enlighten us.
 
@Jon
Thank for posting, did not listen and will not listen. That said, he should have left off that part about George Floyd looking down. IMHO, my first thought, he wouldn't be looking down from anywhere if he hadn't been asphyxiated by the police! His speech writers need to check themselves more carefully. Yep, done with that subject.
 
For information and to inject some accuracy, the Guardian actually did quote the previous section of his speech.
See https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/05/trump-george-floyd-comments-economy-unemployment
Yes, they put that further down in the article, but they removed it from the snippet they led the article with. They wanted to disingenuously tie Trumps comments about Mr Floyd to the job figures, when clearly it was about equal treatment for all and equality. And the BBC, which you said wasn't being biased, missed that entire first part out. Do you not think that context is relevant in the BBC article?
 
@Jon
Thank for posting, did not listen and will not listen. That said, he should have left off that part about George Floyd looking down. IMHO, my first thought, he wouldn't be looking down from anywhere if he hadn't been asphyxiated by the police! His speech writers need to check themselves more carefully. Yep, done with that subject.
Remember that it was not Trump who asphyxiated him. And that he called out the injustice. As I see it, if Obama said the exact same words, he would be praised for his support of the African-American community. But because it comes out of Trumps mouth, hatred against him from the left leads to a distortion in the mind about if what he is saying is good or bad. The speech is clearly of good intent from Trump and about equality. He even ends what he said there about it being a great day by saying that is what is required by the constitution, equal treatment. To conflate that with him trying to say George is happy about the job numbers is frankly more fake news. It is ridiculous!

Edit: I would also like to add, it is not all about George Floyd. There have been 100,000 dead in America recently. To just focus on Mr Floyd is to ignore the plight of the vast majority. There is also great suffering due to the recent economic catastrophe facing American citizens and around the world. This has significant knock-on effects for others. I just cannot understand myopic focus on one persons misfortune while discounting the others, such as the numerous people killed by the rioters and the 100,000 Covid deaths. And while what happened to Floyd should not have happened, how concerned was he about the life of the pregnant woman and her child when he put a gun against her stomach with a threat to kill, as I have mentioned earlier?

As President, Trump has a very difficult job. There is a once in a generation pandemic he has to deal with, then the economic collapse because of that. Then the huge increase in joblessness. These are very difficult times. When he gets great news about the economy, it is great news for the vast majority. If the argument is that we should all be in mourning for George Floyd and the injustice of it all, what about all the other murders that get ignored? There were over 15,000 murders in the US in 2018. That is 41 per day. But do they get a mention?

My view is, take a deep breath, zoom out and see the big picture. The media will try to ram one narrative down your throats, but if you want perspective, realise that they are just shining a lens on something they want to amplify. But when they amplify one thing, they ignore something else. Also remember it was the police officer that killed George Floyd, and no one else. It wasn't Trumps fault.
 
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Thank you, @Pat Hartman and @GinaWhipp for your responses. One of the things I mentioned was the need to learn more about what others are feeling and what they have experienced. Since I'm neither black nor female, I hesitate to jump in any deeper than I already have - and at the moment I don't really have anything to add. But it is definitely enlightening. Both of you qualify in my book as articulate and well educated.
 
@Jon
Yeah, not so sure about that. It was initial reaction. If Obama had said it it still would have been my initial reaction. And if I am honest with myself, and I try my best to be... it's not who said it, it's the fact that it happened that makes me angry. The words have become a trigger.

I am not lost to the fact that this pandemic is has caused 100,000+ deaths. Nor am lost to the fact that 40 million+ have lost jobs and good percentage of those will not be going back to the same job. Businesses have lost, people are facing eviction. We are have cracked the door open to Great Depression and are headed towards *beating* that which is a huge problem.

And you're right it's not all about George Floyd, it's way bigger than that. I just *think*, and this is my opinion only, that people are *safe-at-home*, and maybe about to lose their job and maybe their place of residence, gone thru what savings they (remember over 60% of Americans don't even $400 in case of emergency) and then George Floyd happens. As I said earlier, it was the last thread, that final straw. That said, we are going to have figure this out and I'm not talking about George Floyd I mean all of it. Historically, events like this have always led to change. Americans are famous for their come backs. So, as we arise out of this pandemic we have an opportunity to make sure we ALL rise, united together. We look past race, religion, politics, color and rise together making this what the promise of America that was meant to be. Again, my opinion.
 
@GinaWhipp, I agree in essence with most of what you said there. I think there is pent up frustration and anger because of the pandemic, which leads to a more emotional response. That might explain why gun sales went through the roof over there when people heard a pandemic was coming. This has led to a highly volatile situation.

For the record, if my tone appears to be about defending whites and being anti-black, it could not be further from the truth. I went to a private boarding school for two years, which was a bit like prison actually! In my second year there, my two best friends were black. I shared a room with one of them for a year, a Nigerian guy called Dollar. That is more black exposure for a Brit than the vast majority. It is not like I do not understand some of the issues. I try to get very informed on the data, perspectives and like nothing more than watching movies about the underdog black who gets wrongly convicted and then freed after being found innocent. The whole plea bargaining system in the US does worry me!

My view is that there will always be police brutality. You are dealing with individuals, and they all have different personalities. You will never stop anyone from going rogue. There will always be criminals. There will always be racism. All you can do is try to create a culture and system that has tolerance but also justice.

I remember an instance when Dollar said he was fed up with this guy called Martin making racist comments all the time. The racist was, however, an international under-19 rugby player who was 19.5 stone. Dollar was much lighter, probably around 12 stone. He was, however, both a boxer and an athlete. Completely ripped. He was also the top fighter in the school he went to in Nigeria. He said each class had a fighter and the fights could get pretty vicious, with on the rare occasion people trying to kill one another! He got into his tracksuit and went down to threaten this guy Martin. He had some balls. I heard him shouting at Martin in his dormitory. Martin never said anything racist again in front of Dollar. Bravo.

He was the oldest kid in the school. Why? Because he missed so many classes by going boxing instead. His nose was completely flat! He wanted to train for the olympics but that never happened.
 
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@Jon
You forgot to mention the toilet paper! (I'm NEVER going to understand that.) My sister told me on the NextDoor app she asked people why they not only storing toilet paper but posting where to get it and why they weren't buying food. (I guess supplies were running low in stores.) The reply, "Food is for hurricanes!" We both laughed!

I saw an article that was posting they found some new species of animal. Below in the comments some posted, "Cover that up, close it down, NOT NOW!"

Made me realize how people are at their wits end. It might have been anything but as it happens it was George Floyd that pushed one step too far.

I did not for one moment think you were anti-anything, never occurred to me. Love the story about Dollar, sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. And sometimes you have to face them down.

You reminded of a job I had, in the days when I worked 9 to 5. I was the Department Head, she was white and already had a problem but she did her job until one day she put stamps on the wrong size envelopes. I told her I was not mailing anything in those envelopes and she needed to put stamps on the correct size envelopes and we would hold those until I had a mailing for that size envelope and I went back to my office. I gave her about half and hour and came out to check on her progress. Nobody at her desk, her personal items gone. I'm standing there confused and the CEO called me into his office and I'm thinking, "I did it now" unsure of what I did. Well, it turns out after I went back to my office she proceeded to start complaining that *that black b*tch thinks...* and was promptly fired. I was like, oh okay. The CEO said are you okay and I said well, two things, we missed a teachable moment and who's going to fix the envelopes. (I just felt like you just made her *attitude* towards black people worse.) I got a raise and he called the woman from the other Department to fix the envelopes. Dollar's way was better because it became a *teachable* moment. Sure the guy is probably still a jerk but at least he knows to use his *inside* voice and maybe, just maybe he'll think about what he says and why he thanks that going forward.
 
Do you have it in UK too?

I believe police brutality is the result of the more-than-necessary power they've been given.
Have you ever heard about Stanford prison experiment?
Yes. Police brutality is everywhere. People have pretty similar genetics throughout the world, so many of their inclinations are hard wired. For example, 1% of the population are psychopaths. Many of these end up in prison. I believe they make up approximately 12% of the population. They get jobs too you know!

Yes, I have read widely about the field of psychology, and I also saw the movie about it a year or two ago. There have been many experiments on authority, and peoples reaction to it. You may have heard of the experiments where they got volunteers to electrocute people on command by a white-coated scientist. It was all staged but they found authority figures could get people to do all sorts of things they wouldn't normally do. Also, at the private school I briefly attended, some of the previously placid amicable guys in my house of 20 students turned into monsters when made a school prefect, which came with privileges and power over other students.

It is difficult to know where to attribute blame. Blame the person, or blame the nature of mankind?

Incidentally, my best mate from a comprehensive school I went to told me about his brother who was a police officer. He said there was institutional racism, but that was way back, maybe around 1988? He said a police officer threw a black guy across a table, or something like that. I am vague on the details, but I remember his comments.

Having said that, just because someone else says it, it does not mean I believe it to be true. Even if an expert says it, I leave the comments open for debate. Just look at football pundits. They are all supposed to be experts. Yet they all disagree with one another. The world is full of subjective opinion, even about the objective.

Let us take the topic of claims of racism from the black community, or claims of disadvantage. Yes, there may be. I've seen people make plenty of racist comments to me in private. But on the flip side, how does a black person know what it is like to be white? We are told if you are black, a white person cannot comment about it because they don't know. But does not the same apply the other way around? And because the issue is comparative, white verses black, you cannot say a black person knows what it is to be white, but not vice versa.

I also think that many people who make racist comments are not endemically racist. For example, they do it to hurt the other person, if it is a face to face confrontation. To me, racism is where there are people out there who genuinely believe in their racial superiority over the other race. That is probably an old school view but to me it is where the most serious issues are.

The whole topic of racism is really just a subset of a wider issue: prejudice. I've always taken the view that focusing exclusively on racism hides the real problem. Let us take the gingers! They often get a hard time, for having ginger hair! What about short men? They get a hard time. Have you seen some of the videos about women selecting men? The guys who were particularly short had to be like multi-millionaires to get the same attention from women taller than them. Plenty of experiments on that one. How about prejudice against the old? That fat? Those with mental or physical health issues?

I'm sure some readers here may think I am a nazi-loving Trump deplorable who has no compassion for others, with racist undertones and a blinkered view of reality. Yet to me, that is just more prejudice. If you saw my Hexaco personality profile, I am off the chart for high altruism.

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