Shootings in Tucson

I don't know why you guys are maocking Col, we are given the impression that buying guns in the States is easy, mind you in all my visits I never ever felt threatened.

Brian
 
I don't know why you guys are maocking Col, we are given the impression that buying guns in the States is easy, mind you in all my visits I never ever felt threatened.

Brian

Firstly, that should be "mocking"

and Secondly, I think it's probably because it's something that doesn't get to occur often....
 
I don't know why you guys are maocking Col, we are given the impression that buying guns in the States is easy, mind you in all my visits I never ever felt threatened.

Brian

Not mocking Col at all. Just mocking the general European attitude about Americans, whom they mock unmercifully. Mock is as mock does. Anyone for some mock-turtle soup?
 
A dead person is not able to put his side of the argument, maybe they just bumped into each other and the shooter got mad.

Brian

I think Col's friend illustrates what's going on quite well.

If you're in the state of mind to think that packing a handgun with you is a necessity then you're obviously in the state of mind that using it is a likely outcome.

This state of mind is fear and is, I suggest, what is driving Col's friend to the conclusion that packing a handgun is a good idea.

I think that you're absolutely right that an inappropriate response from the jogger is so much more likely simply because of the attitude he adopts before he leaves his home.

It's easy to preach it but I think rejecting this attitude is the safest option.
 
BTW, shotguns are readily available at Wal-mart. Handguns are a different story but the confusion over the two from a foreigners perspective is understandable especially considering the huge quantity of illegal firearms in circulation in this country.
 
I'm not mocking Col. I'm truly given the impression that carjackings and muggings occur frequently throughout England. I've seen the statistics, it makes me fear to go because as a foreigner, I would presumably be an easy target to attack. I feel safer hear since it's much more rare here to be mugged or carjacked. You never know if the person you are randomly selecting is carrying a weapon. :D

Murder is a personal crime more often than a random act of violence. Usually there is a personal motive involved. Even the guy in Tucson was targetting the government officials, the other murders were collateral damage, so were more random, but this is infrequent with most murders.
 
You know it! That's right up there with my Nintendo obsession :p

But I need to find one Sephiroth style, one so long that I have to hold it to my side or it would drag into the ground. :D
 
But I need to find one Sephiroth style, one so long that I have to hold it to my side or it would drag into the ground. :D

IF you are going to carry a sword, you might as well do it the RIGHT way.... :p
 
A dead person is not able to put his side of the argument, maybe they just bumped into each other and the shooter got mad.

Brian
No, they aren't able to argue their side of the argument. Evidence and police procedure, however, offers a reliable account as to the events that occured. While I wasn't there and cannot attest to there being witness accounts or what have you, I'm pretty sure that there was at least some evidence to backup the jogger's claims as he was cleared of wrongdoing. That's how our justice system is engineered to work. Yes, yes... It doesnt always work as intended, as the example of a man who served 30 years in prison for a crime he was later acquitted of from DNA evidence, but by and large its the best system we've got until someone comes up with something better.

As for the OP topic, I would submit that this shooter was deeply emotionally disturbed. There has been lots of discussion in the states on gun control and those wishing to castigate Sarah Palin et al for political ads and what have you. To that I would express deep concern that the casualties of this horrific act have been reduced to opportunists attempting to gain political capital by muddying the waters with rhetoric and nonsense.

As for gun control in this particular case, I dont see the logic of the argument that it could have prevented it... From his previous record as well as his willingness to actually follow through with the crime (since it had been planned out and executed) it is more than obvious that this individual has no qualms about breaking minor and major laws. To think that if guns were outlawed, then he would have no gun to commit the crime and thus would not have gone through with it, is a bit naive in my opinion. Maybe in this particular case if guns were more easily attained by law-abiding citizens then the casualty count would have been smaller.

This is just my opinion of course, and is worth exactly what you paid for it.

G
 
To that I would express deep concern that the casualties of this horrific act have been reduced to opportunists attempting to gain political capital by muddying the waters with rhetoric and nonsense.

That always happens, and I honestly don't think it is an act or being opportunistic. People truly believe these things, so when they happen, they feel that is their validation. Those on the left have been saying for quite some time that all the anger and vitriol that is being spewed by the right could incite violence. Is that what happened here? Maybe, maybe not.

To think that if guns were outlawed, then he would have no gun to commit the crime and thus would not have gone through with it, is a bit naive in my opinion.

I hear that argument a lot in gun control arguments, but I hardly ever see any proof. Are there illegal or unregistered guns out there? Of course. But those who are anti-gun control often try to make the argument that it is so easy to get an illegal gun. I'm not convinced that is the case.

Maybe in this particular case if guns were more easily attained by law-abiding citizens then the casualty count would have been smaller.

That argument is used over and over as well, but once again, never proven. I can honestly say that if I was carrying a firearm at all times, I would have killed someone by this time. In that split second of rage when someone does something horrible to you, whatever it may be, it would be natural for many people to grab the gun and kill them. 5 seconds later, you're realizing what you just did.

I think if more people were carrying guns, we'd have more stories of kids killing themselves with their parents/family members weapon. More stories of kids killing each other "accidently". More stories of people in general killing each other.

This is just my opinion of course, and is worth exactly what you paid for it.

That's a great disclaimer. Same applies to my responses :)
 
No, they aren't able to argue their side of the argument. Evidence and police procedure, however, offers a reliable account as to the events that occured. While I wasn't there and cannot attest to there being witness accounts or what have you, I'm pretty sure that there was at least some evidence to backup the jogger's claims as he was cleared of wrongdoing. That's how our justice system is engineered to work. Yes, yes... It doesnt always work as intended, as the example of a man who served 30 years in prison for a crime he was later acquitted of from DNA evidence, but by and large its the best system we've got until someone comes up with something better.

As for the OP topic, I would submit that this shooter was deeply emotionally disturbed. There has been lots of discussion in the states on gun control and those wishing to castigate Sarah Palin et al for political ads and what have you. To that I would express deep concern that the casualties of this horrific act have been reduced to opportunists attempting to gain political capital by muddying the waters with rhetoric and nonsense.

As for gun control in this particular case, I dont see the logic of the argument that it could have prevented it... From his previous record as well as his willingness to actually follow through with the crime (since it had been planned out and executed) it is more than obvious that this individual has no qualms about breaking minor and major laws. To think that if guns were outlawed, then he would have no gun to commit the crime and thus would not have gone through with it, is a bit naive in my opinion. Maybe in this particular case if guns were more easily attained by law-abiding citizens then the casualty count would have been smaller.

This is just my opinion of course, and is worth exactly what you paid for it.

G

If the manufacture, sale and possession of a handgun were illegal and if there was an automatic minimum sentence of 25 years to life for a crime committed while in possession of a firearm, presumably there would be fewer handguns on the black market and they would be muich more expensive to obtain. No, it would not stop all of the handgun and firearm deaths but I do believe it would drastically reduce the incidence. Other available weapons do not inflict as large a death toll as firearms do.
 
If the manufacture, sale and possession of a handgun were illegal and if there was an automatic minimum sentence of 25 years to life for a crime committed while in possession of a firearm, presumably there would be fewer handguns on the black market and they would be muich more expensive to obtain. No, it would not stop all of the handgun and firearm deaths but I do believe it would drastically reduce the incidence. Other available weapons do not inflict as large a death toll as firearms do.

I bet if firearms were illegal the death toll for other weapons would rise drastically....
 
I bet if firearms were illegal the death toll for other weapons would rise drastically....

Nothing kills quite so rapidly as an automatic firearm, the fact that you cannot stop all gun deaths seems a poor argument against stopping some.

Oh and its good to know that pointing out typos is just as important as the topic's real discussion.

Brian
 
That always happens, and I honestly don't think it is an act or being opportunistic. People truly believe these things, so when they happen, they feel that is their validation. Those on the left have been saying for quite some time that all the anger and vitriol that is being spewed by the right could incite violence. Is that what happened here? Maybe, maybe not.
I still say opportunistic. The time for political debate is in the halls of Congress and among our pundits. It is not during scheduled memorials of innocents who were gunned down mere days ago. I do appreciate our President's stance on not participating in the rhetoric from both sides while at that event, but I find it in poor taste that others saw fit to print political propoganda, wear political tshirts, and have organized debate on the grounds.


I hear that argument a lot in gun control arguments, but I hardly ever see any proof. Are there illegal or unregistered guns out there? Of course. But those who are anti-gun control often try to make the argument that it is so easy to get an illegal gun. I'm not convinced that is the case.
I'd suggest you check some of the figures for illegal vs legal gun crimes. In 1997 the ACLU reported (From Words to Weapons)that 25% of LA Highschool students could obtain a gun illegally for less than 50$.
A Survey of State Prison Inmates released also in 1997 reported that among those committing a crime with a firearm, the source of of the gun from "family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source" was 80%. Even if the gun started out as legal, the second it was loaned, borrowed, stolen, or bought without regulatory practices it is illegal. The same report shows only 12% purchased from a "retail setting or pawnshop". (source: http://www.policyalmanac.org/crime/archive/firearms_and_crime.shtml)


That argument is used over and over as well, but once again, never proven. I can honestly say that if I was carrying a firearm at all times, I would have killed someone by this time. In that split second of rage when someone does something horrible to you, whatever it may be, it would be natural for many people to grab the gun and kill them. 5 seconds later, you're realizing what you just did.
You're also using an unproven generalization which you accuse me of. You haven't had a firearm on you at all times, thus you really dont know how you would have behaved. If you have truly been angry enough to take someone's life, you probably would have been angry enough to punch them in the face, or pick up a pipe and hit them, has this also happened? It's the same basic assumption of saying that people with guns will use them. You always have your fists with you, they are always capable of assault, but do you assault those who anger you often?

I think if more people were carrying guns, we'd have more stories of kids killing themselves with their parents/family members weapon. More stories of kids killing each other "accidently". More stories of people in general killing each other.
Let me clarify my position on gun control. As it stands, I think its perfectly reasonable to have to undergo a background check and a waiting period to purchase a firearm. That said, I really dont think it's all that hard for a law-abiding citizen to obtain a firearm. If I wanted to, I could get one within two weeks and wouldn't be all that bothered by it. so in this case I dont think that you're going to experience all that many more of these type of incidents as they seem to occur pretty regular as is, and people who want guns right now generally have them. This would probably fall into the category of people being irresponsible with firearms, which if someone is willing to be irresponsible around things that can potentially kill, maim, or injure their children--it becomes an issue of are people responsible enough to be a parent (which i'm not convinced everyone is).


That's a great disclaimer. Same applies to my responses :)
Thanks, I think more people should realize what their opinion is worth to other people :)
 
Nothing kills quite so rapidly as an automatic firearm, the fact that you cannot stop all gun deaths seems a poor argument against stopping some.

That is true, what you say about it not being as rapid, but I'll tell you this much, if I were a person getting mugged, raped, robbed in my home, I would certainly want to be able to defend myself (Note: I do not carry a gun myself), as a woman I doubt I would be strong enough to fight off any attacker, with my fists or any other kind of weapon other than a gun, now I am not suggesting that there should not be any gun control, I'm all for it, I just don't think we should be denied the use of guns all together.

Oh and its good to know that pointing out typos is just as important as the topic's real discussion.

Brian

Ha! You know it is.... But if you are serious with this comment and not jesting me, let me explain mine.... I was doing what Colin would do, commenting on your spelling, so I was continuing on with teasing him :)
 
I bet if firearms were illegal the death toll for other weapons would rise drastically....

I very much doubt it. Other weapons are much harder to kill with in a moment of rage or passion, or accident. Some of them take a LOT of work to kill someone with. Not like pointing the thing and pulling the trigger.
 
Firstly, carrying an offensive weapon is illegal in the UK. This can be having a baseball bat in the car for no reason (i.e. you don't play baseball) through carrying a small bladed penknife to carrying a gun. Even a brick is reviewed as an offensive weapon.

A sword would be a certain prison spell.

My comment about buying guns with ease in supermarkets in the US was following a report on the BBC and in the papers explaining how easy it is.

kryst51 said:
I was doing what Colin would do, commenting on your spelling, so I was continuing on with teasing him
do I do that? I am a reformed character I'll have you know:)

Plus - I think Krystal is correct, the death toll for other weapons would rise. Knife crime in the UK is very popular, gun crime is not.

I am unclear about these reports about muggings and carjacking in the UK. Mugging does happen I know, usually to old people or disabled people who cannot defend themselves. Carjacking I believe to be extremely rare and usually makes the TV news when it happens.

However, having said that, carjacking and mugging is tons worse in places like Brazil, Mexico and other countries where the law is a little more lax shall we say?

I'm sure any UK resident on holiday is perfectly safe in the US if the correct precautions are taken, as any US citizen is safe in the UK.

Col
 
Tragic as this incident is , there isn't much you can do about it ..
the guns are there already, you would need the will of the people to hand guns in, and most people wll quickly realise that the bad people and the nutters aren't going to hand them in - and soon realise that they need the guns to protect themselves ..

you can talk it through backwards/forwards sideway - but the guns are out there - how are you going to get them

Then you have 50 states if 40 of them agree to band guns and the remaining 10 don't - or you have Texas that borders on Mexico - Mexico is pretty much a gun country so the mexican rob you at gun point what do you do throw flowers at them ?

i am anti guns/firearms - being a Brit - gun crime is quite low because they are there in the first place

THey have guns in other countries and they seem to have a handle on it (Switzerland) every man has a rifle (as part of their national service)
What makes them more sensible than the rest of us ?
 
Firstly, carrying an offensive weapon is illegal in the UK. This can be having a baseball bat in the car for no reason (i.e. you don't play baseball) through carrying a small bladed penknife to carrying a gun. Even a brick is reviewed as an offensive weapon.

Are there any legal routes to obtaining firearms in the UK?

Also, is this ColinEssex? I think that was the guys name, he signed his posts similarly.
 

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