Shootings in Tucson

[ChipperT]

The same place you buy milk and bread? Thats enough, other than differing trans atlantic terms for what type stores are.

How common place is a walmart that sells guns? How many states can you walk in, and walk out the same day with a gun?

Walmarts are now fairly common throughout the US, much to the chagrin of many folks who believe they destroy community culture and ship US money to China in the form of buying low-priced goods.

In most states you can go into a sporting goods department or store and walk out the same day with a shotgun or rifle if you are over 18. In no state should you be able to do that with a handgun due to Federal laws.

 

[Alc]

Walmarts are now fairly common throughout the US, much to the chagrin of many folks who believe they destroy community culture and ship US money to China in the form of buying low-priced goods.

In most states you can go into a sporting goods department or store and walk out the same day with a shotgun or rifle if you are over 18. In no state should you be able to do that with a handgun due to Federal laws.

Just did a quick Google on it and it appears that at least some Wal-marts used to sell hand guns, up until about a decade ago. Some shootings made them rethink the policy and - at the time - only Alaska was exempt and continued to sell them.

Sure you're right about the same-day stuff.

 

[AUGuy]

Of course, I can not prove it, but I think it very likely. I have punched someone in the face before (and been punched in the face). I have never hit someone with a pipe (but I have hit someone with a baseball bat). I think many people, when attacked, go through a ton of emotions. They are not in the right mindframe to realize that guns often are a permanent solution.

Its the fight or flight situation. When in danger, your mind makes a split second decision to fight or flight. If the decision is to fight, and a gun were on hand, I think there'd be a lot more people dead by gunfire.



I think there's a clear difference between someone angering you and someone doing something "horrible" to you that causes you to enter a "rage". If someone angers you and you assault them, that's generally evidence of an overly aggressive person who will likely end up in prison. But if you're attacked, and you defend yourself, that's a different story.

The difference between a baseball bat injury and a gunshot injury is huge. Both will likely stop the person from attacking you, but the baseball bat injury is not permanent.

Yea we probably agree more than we disagree about this. I definitely recognize the scale of violence from fists to weapons, and maybe its not the best comparison to use, I was simply trying to get at the point that most people who own guns are reasonable. Reasonable people don't use deadly force unless the scenario they're in is life-threatening or has the likely potential to become so.

I agree that the 80% is likely a bit muddy concerninig what it includes. My guess is that somewhere around 50-60% is an accurate number for illegally purchased firearms used in crimes. I'll do some looking to see if I can find something that is a more specific breakdown.

Personal responsibility accounts for lots of behavior. The problem is rarely just the object in the spotlight, but the chain of responsibility that's broken down to bring a person to the mindset where they are willing and able to commit a crime knowing the consequences.

Johnny Doe who shoots up a school didn't shoot up the school because he was able to find some guns in his neighbors closet; he shot up the school because he wasnt taught character and proper responsibility by his parents or role models. Remember that at its core this is a societal behavioral problem with one aspect of it having the focus (firearms in this case). While this is a pie-in-the-sky opinion to have that maybe one day people will revert back to actually caring for their children and their actions while offering them the nurturing they need to develope a healthy mental capacity, it's what I percieve as the solution to the underlying problem.

I am glad that we're able to have a thought filled discussion on a topic though. Thanks for engaging.

 

[Alc]

I agree that the 80% is likely a bit muddy concerninig what it includes. My guess is that somewhere around 50-60% is an accurate number for illegally purchased firearms used in crimes. I'll do some looking to see if I can find something that is a more specific breakdown.

It would be interesting to see if anyone has ever workd out the proportion using totally illegal guns i.e. guns that entered the country legally. The rest, presumably, being guns that at least started out as legally owned weapons.

 

[Adam Caramon]

...I was simply trying to get at the point that most people who own guns are reasonable. Reasonable people don't use deadly force unless the scenario they're in is life-threatening or has the likely potential to become so.

I wouldn't be so quick to say that gun owners are reasonable (nor would I be quick to say the opposite). I think they are people, just like other people. Some are reasonable, some aren't.

My guess is that somewhere around 50-60% is an accurate number for illegally purchased firearms used in crimes.

It would be interesting to see if anyone has ever workd out the proportion using totally illegal guns i.e. guns that entered the country legally.

Looks like Alc was thinking the same thing I was. It would be interesting to find this figure. I think a lot of pro-gun people and groups have done a very good job of convincing many people that this is the case. If you happened to find any research/studies for this percentage, I'd definitely like to read it.

Johnny Doe who shoots up a school didn't shoot up the school because he was able to find some guns in his neighbors closet; he shot up the school because he wasnt taught character and proper responsibility by his parents or role models. Remember that at its core this is a societal behavioral problem with one aspect of it having the focus (firearms in this case).

I agree; Johnny Doe is disturbed. Whatever the reasons, a gun did not sway him to commit violence. School shootings in particular, and mass killing in general, are usually planned activities. Its not just a moment of rage type of thing.

The other side of the question, though, is if Johnny Doe did not have access to a firearm, would he still go to the school and commit murder? Possibly, but its likely that the casualty list would be a lot lower (depending on what kind of weapon he could get).

When considering legislation restricting/prohibiting guns, we have to consider if restricting the legal means of acquiring a gun would prevent Johnny from getting his hands on a gun (which is why that statisitic you and I mentioned above is so crucial).

I am glad that we're able to have a thought filled discussion on a topic though.

As am I.

 

[ChipperT]

It would be interesting to see if anyone has ever workd out the proportion using totally illegal guns i.e. guns that entered the country legally. The rest, presumably, being guns that at least started out as legally owned weapons.

Not a direct answer to your question but, according to the latest statistics I can find (1996), over 600.000 guns were stolen from households in a year. My bet is that a vast majority ended up on the black market since it is really difficult to sell a handgun at a pawnshop without it being traced back as stolen first.

http://ojjdp.ncjrs.org/pubs/gun_violence/sect01.html

 

[AccessBlaster]

I don't know why you guys are maocking Col,
Brian

You are kidding right?
BTW had I made a typo like "maocking" I would be mocked by rich and colin.

 

[Rich]

You are kidding right?
BTW had I made a typo like "maocking" I would be mocked by rich and colin.

Do wake up, you're way behind

 

[Rich]

Yeah, But she sure is sexy.

I'm sorry to hear of your illness Jenny, has the doctor given you something for it?

 

[Thales750]

I'm sorry to hear of your illness Jenny, has the doctor given you something for it?

Hey Rich, good to see you're still alive.

 

[Rich]

Hey Rich, good to see you're still alive.

Just

 

[Alc]

Not a direct answer to your question but, according to the latest statistics I can find (1996), over 600.000 guns were stolen from households in a year. My bet is that a vast majority ended up on the black market since it is really difficult to sell a handgun at a pawnshop without it being traced back as stolen first.

[URL="http://ojjdp.ncjrs.org/pubs/gun_violence/sect01.html"]http://ojjdp.ncjrs.org/pubs/gun_violence/sect01.html[/URL]

600,000 in one year! That's incredible. Does take some weight away from the whole argument that all illegally owned guns are imported illegally, doesn't it?

 

[Thales750]

600,000 in one year! That's incredible. Does take some weight away from the whole argument that all illegally owned guns are imported illegally, doesn't it?

Yes and no. How many millions of tons of illegal drugs are transported unimpeded around the globe each year? Where there is a willing buyer, there will always be a willing seller. In this world of small, high tech machine shops, anyone that wants a gun can have one, even in good old Mother England.

I own one (machine shop). If I wanted to build weapons, people would buy them.

We could build weapons that would scare you. We designed a digitally controlled, infrared sensing, self pointing 50 caliber semiautomatic that would respond within milliseconds. The only place this would be legal, is if we sold them to the military. And we designed this with off the shelf products. We never built one, but we could, our machine tools are controlled by the very drawings we used to design the systems.

And I’m just a regular guy.

 

[Alc]

Yes and no. How many millions of tons of illegal drugs are transported unimpeded around the globe each year? Where there is a willing buyer, there will always be a willing seller. In this world of small, high tech machine shops, anyone that wants a gun can have one, even in good old Mother England.

I own one (machine shop). If I wanted to build weapons, people would buy them.

We could build weapons that would scare you. We designed a digitally controlled, infrared sensing, self pointing 50 caliber semiautomatic that would respond within milliseconds. The only place this would be legal, is if we sold them to the military. And we designed this with off the shelf products. We never built one, but we could, our machine tools are controlled by the very drawings we used to design the systems.

And I’m just a regular guy.

So what percentage of guns do enter the country illegally? My guess is there are no accurate statistics, since it occurs illegally.

Let's assume there are X guns being brought ilegally into the US each year. The total number of illegal guns in the US is X + 600,000 (I'll ignore homemade guns for now, unless someone can show that they represent a number anywhere near 600,000 per year). 600,0000 is a very sizeable number and would be trotted out by the pro-gun lobby at every opportunity if it could be demonstrated to be the number of lives every year saved by gun ownership.

Edit: And while you may consider yourself to be a 'regular guy', I think you'd be disappointed by how few people you could stop on the street who'd be capable of designing and building a gun of any type from scratch.

 

[AnthonyGerrard]

Yes and no. How many millions of tons of illegal drugs are transported unimpeded around the globe each year? Where there is a willing buyer, there will always be a willing seller. In this world of small, high tech machine shops, anyone that wants a gun can have one, even in good old Mother England.

I own one (machine shop). If I wanted to build weapons, people would buy them.

We could build weapons that would scare you. We designed a digitally controlled, infrared sensing, self pointing 50 caliber semiautomatic that would respond within milliseconds. The only place this would be legal, is if we sold them to the military. And we designed this with off the shelf products. We never built one, but we could, our machine tools are controlled by the very drawings we used to design the systems.

And I’m just a regular guy.

You have told us a few times now - how easy it is for you and others to make guns, but I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with that information?

 

[AnthonyGerrard]

So what percentage of guns do enter the country illegally? My guess is there are no accurate statistics, since it occurs illegally.

Let's assume there are X guns being brought ilegally into the US each year. The total number of illegal guns in the US is X + 600,000 (I'll ignore homemade guns for now, unless someone can show that they represent a number anywhere near 600,000 per year). 600,0000 is a very sizeable number and would be trotted out by the pro-gun lobby at every opportunity if it could be demonstrated to be the number of lives every year saved by gun ownership.

Edit: And while you may consider yourself to be a 'regular guy', I think you'd be disappointed by how few people you could stop on the street who'd be capable of designing and building a gun of any type from scratch.

I may have missed this point too - but why would the pro gun looby use th 600,000 for their benefit?

Surely the anti , claim thats 600,000 in the hands of criminals that wouldn't have been , if legally held guns were less common theres less to steal?


I wonder if the US is better or worse placed to suffer from a Mumbai type attack. That may change the issue somewhat.

 

[Thales750]

You have told us a few times now - how easy it is for you and others to make guns, but I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with that information?

That you cannot stop the tide. Take a look at what is going on in Pakistan.

They are arming an army with "hand made" guns.

If you are a South American drug dealer and the demand for illegal guns goes up, you can purchase less than a million dollars worth of equipment and get a small group of machinist, and you are up and running.

After I got my machine shop, it occurred to me that there is no putting the genie back in the bottle. We used to joke about it, but it was dark humor indeed.

In the end, the civilized world will compromise it morals and ethics to rid ourselves of people that will supply illegal weapons, drugs and terror.

 

[Fifty2One]

People will kill people - if they dont have guns to fight with then they will use knives, sticks, machettes, stones, or what ever else they can get their hands upon to harm another person.

 

[Brianwarnock]

Yep its just as easy to kill half a dozen people with a stick as an automatic handgun.

Brian

 

[Vassago]

But again, more often than not, murder is not a random act, but a thought out plan. If someone plans to kill someone, they will. If they don't do it themselves, they'll find someone who will.

But random crimes like home invasion or armed robbery are pretty rare. It's even more rare than these random crimes result in a murder. I think the most prevailant reason for this is you never know if the person you attempt to commit one of these crimes against is armed and protected as well. And while you may not want to kill anyone when you commit these crimes, I'm sure they would have far less of an issue shooting you in self-defense.