The Qur'an

[Isaac]

Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land – it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one – it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors

So why did the Palestinian people knowingly vote for a terrorist organization (Hamas) to lead them in 2006, while saying out of the other sides of their mouths that they are 'innocent'. Does that make them guilty for everything that has happened recently?

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Aziz, as is your right to choose, you follow Islam. I actually have zero point zero percent doubt that by your standards, you are a good and devout Muslim.

The problem as I see it is that you have drunk the poisoned grape Kool-Aid for so long that you cannot taste its bitterness. Modern society suggests that ALL people are equal regardless of religion, national origin, gender, or gender preference. Some people have more trouble than others in accepting that we are all HUMAN first and then pick your points of diversion second.

Islam does not appear to accept this more enlightened and more modern viewpoint. Though I am an atheist, I try to show no ill will to others who have not chosen as I did. But that choice does not include that I have to agree with these other choices. In that vein, I must simply say, "Have a good day and let us learn to live with our apparently intractable differences." I feel that in 180+ posts there is no progress. I see no point in trying to convince you. However, may I respectfully offer you a suggestion?

YouTube has a content provider named Sam Shamoun who is FAR more literate in the Qur'an than I am. His commentary - complete with specific chapter and verse references - provides insights that I cannot provide, since I did not grow up in an Islamic environment. Mr. Shamoun seems quite scholarly and might enlighten you as to more intimate criticisms of Islamic views. Search for "Sam Shamoun" and listen to a couple of his postings.

 

[Isaac]

Oooh - let me pile on here - may I suggest one too? Usama Dakdok, who broadcasts on VCY America. He was a devout Muslim and a well educated one, who is now no longer Muslim. He converted to Christianity at age 11, but went on to study and holds a degree in Islamic Law from a university.

He tells many truths about Islam that do not make it to the modern west. I've listened to several of his broadcasts and he quotes from the Koran quite a bit

 

[conception_native_0123]

Where is Allah now?

watch what ya say there richard! that's just like saying "where is jesus now?", ya know. =)

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Adam, that's the same as asking where is Zeus now? Or where is Ahura-Mazda now? Or where is Odin now? (Actually, according to Marvel, he was last seen in one of the Scandinavian countries.)

 

[Isaac]

Zeus is probably pooping in the backyard. He's my neighbor's dog!

 

[conception_native_0123]

Odin?

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Odin?

Obviously, Adam, you aren't up on other mythological pantheons. Odin (also sometimes written as Wotan and Woden) is the All-Father of Norse legend, the father of Thor and Baldur, husband of Frigga (also written as Freyya). Odin One-eye is often depicted as a majestic and richly-robed bearded man with staff in one hand, a raven on one shoulder, and a patch over one eye. He sacrificed the other eye to a magic raven in order to gain perfect sight (god-level sight) in the other eye. But then again, don't ALL religions depict their "leader of the gods" as majestic and ornately dressed for the period in which those legends were created?

We get our name for the middle day of the week, Wednesday, from a corrupted spelling of "Woden's Day" and get Friday from "Friyya's Day." Then, Thor is in the middle of those two for "Thor's Day." Look up "origin of day names" to see the other sources.

 

[conception_native_0123]

I didn't know any of that richard. thank you for educating me. although I don't know if I'll ever use it!

 

[The_Doc_Man]

My wife uses that sort of information all the time... when she's doing crossword puzzles. Ya never know when you'll need that information.

 

[CJ_London]

although I don't know if I'll ever use it!

Might help you understand the marvel universe

 

[The_Doc_Man]

It also leads to some interesting cross-cultural concepts based on differences in mythology. It shows how many beliefs are more intertwined that we might have first imagined. It ALSO suggests that our ideas about afterlife are part of many cultures.

If we say "It will be a cold day in Hell before X happens." - in Norse mythology, Hell already IS frozen. EVERY day is cold because Hel (with one L) is in a corner of the realm called Frostheim. It is where you go if you died a quiet death rather than a warrior's death. We get the name "Hell" from Hela, the Norse goddess of death, who rules over that region. If you died the noble death of an heroic warrior, you went to Valhalla where you had the company of other heroes in a boisterous feasting hall with unending food and fermented beverages, and the camaraderie of others who chose a noble death.

If you look at Islamic deaths, those who died the death of a hero went to a garden-like place of feasting, but you also got 72 virgins to tend to your needs and, IF I recall the myth correctly (which is not a guarantee), the virgins miraculously regained their virginity after they tended to you. To be fair, not all beliefs go this way, and the description could be interpreted as 72 angelic attendants. The name of this place, jannet 'adn, translates to Garden of Eden. (Yes, THAT Garden of Eden!) Their Hell is Jahannam, which is oddly similar to the Greek Gehenna, which in turn is probably derived from Hebrew ge Hinnom ("valley of Hinnom"), a place where bloody pagan sacrifices occurred, as noted in the history of the area.

In Greek mythology, we don't go to Hell, we are condemned to the pits of Tartarus, which is volcanic. There, we go to Hades. Recognize that name? Hades isn't a place, though. There, you go to the Devil. Hades is the name of the ruler of Tartarus, the final "resting" place of lost souls who perpetually grieve the things they have lost - presumably because they valued material things over love. The area is actually called Gehenna (see above.) If you were a good person, you might go to Elysian Fields, a perpetual and idyllic garden - much like the image of the"Garden of Eden." The REALLY good people got a corner of that area as a staging place for their return to a new life (reincarnation).

If you look at early Hebrew ideas about death, go no farther than Ecclesiastes 9:5 (and a few more verses) to find that early Jewish beliefs were that ALL deaths are final and absolute. No awareness, no sorrow, no pain, no joy, ... NOTHING. It wasn't until later that the "fiery Hell" and "idyllic Heaven" became commonplace, probably after the Jews had contact with Greek culture and liked their idea of an afterlife.

 

[Galaxiom]

If you died the noble death of an heroic warrior, you went to Valhalla where you had the company of other heroes in a boisterous feasting hall with unending food and fermented beverages, and the camaraderie of others who chose a noble death.

I like the sound of that one.

 

[aziz rasul]

So why did the Palestinian people...

So why does the Bible advocate the killing of innocent children, which has allowed Israel, IDF, KKK, Crusaders, etc. to do just that?

Psalm 137:8-9
O daughter of Babylon, doomed to be destroyed, blessed shall he be who repays you with what you have done to us! Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!

Hosea 13:16
Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword; their little ones shall be dashed in pieces,
and their pregnant women ripped open.

1 Samuel 15:3
Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”

Joshua 6:21
Then they devoted all in the city to destruction, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and donkeys, with the edge of the sword.

2 Kings 2:23-24
He went up from there to Bethel, and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, “Go up, you baldhead!
Go up, you baldhead!” And he turned around, and when he saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. And two she-bears came out of the woods and tore
forty-two of the boys.

Exodus 21:15 ESV / 325 helpful votes
“Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death.

But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and KILL them in front of me.'"
Luke 19:27

Do you think that I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division!
Luke 12:51

15. “Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to DEATH.
17. And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to DEATH.
20. And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
21. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall NOT BE PUNISHED: for he is his money.
Exodus 21:15, 17, 20-21

For God COMMANDED, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely DIE.’
Matthew 15:4

 

[Isaac]

So why does the Bible advocate the killing of innocent children

Because back in that day, killing everyone in a given (town, village etc) was the surest and sometimes only way to guarantee your safety.

Fortunately, Jesus came and paid the price for our sins, this relieving us from the burden of living under the harshness of the law, and freeing us up to no longer be slaves to sin - either in this life, or the life to come.

 

[aziz rasul]

The_Doc_Man, as is your right to choose, you don't follow Islam. I actually have zero point zero percent doubt that by your standards, you are a good DISBELIEVER.

The problem as I see it is that you have drunk the poisoned chalice of Kufr for so long that you cannot taste its bitterness. Islam teaches us that only those who are SUBMITTERS to the ONE TRUE God will ultimately enter Paradise. The rest of the humans will be thrown into HELL, irrrspective of their FALSE religion or no religion, national origin, gender, or gender preference. Some people have more trouble than others in accepting that we were ALL born as Muslims and then pick their way to DISBELIEF and KUFR.

Islam is just to all humans as we are given free will to choose the path we wish. God guides those who wish to be guided and leaves the rest to go astray as that is what they desire. Disbelief does not appear to recognise this enlightened and correct viewpoint.

Many atheists show ill will towards the Muslims just because they are Muslims. I, and many other Muslims I have known, have suffered this personally all my life, in many different scenarios. As a Muslim, I sense it by a simple look or gesture unnoticed by others. This situation has remained for almost 70 years and I don't see it ever changing. I always treat non Muslims that I meet fairly as my religion teaches me to.

“O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allaah, even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives. Whether one is rich or poor, Allah is more worthy of both.”
Qur'an 4:135

“O you who believe, be upright for God, and be bearers of witness with justice!”
Qur'an 5:8

“God commands justice and fair dealing…”
Qur'an 16:90

“Indeed, Allaah commands you to render trusts to whom they are due and when you judge between people to judge with justice. Excellent is that which Allaah instructs you. Indeed, Allaah is ever Hearing and Seeing.”
Qur'an 4:58

In the preceeding posts, I have propogated Islam as I have to do, irrespective of whether the people accept or not. It is God, that enters Islam to those who are truthful and sincere.

May I respectfully offer you a suggestion? YouTube has many videos by people who come to Speakers Corner in London like Mansur, Adnan Rashid, Hashim, Ali Dawah, etc. who are more eloquent than me.

 

[aziz rasul]

Because back in that day, killing everyone in a given (town, village etc) was the surest and sometimes only way to guarantee your safety.

So why is it still happening now?

Fortunately, Jesus came and paid the price for our sins, ...

So why does the Bible say otherwise?

20 The person who sins shall die. A child shall not suffer for the iniquity of a parent nor a parent suffer for the iniquity of a child; the righteousness of the righteous shall be their own, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be their own.
21 But if the wicked turn away from all their sins that they have committed and keep all my statutes and do what is lawful and right, they shall surely live; they shall not die.
22 None of the transgressions that they have committed shall be remembered against them, for the righteousness that they have done they shall live.
Ezekiel 18:20-22

14 Again, though I say to the wicked, “You shall surely die,” yet if they turn from their sin and do what is lawful and right—
15 if the wicked restore the pledge, give back what they have taken by robbery, and walk in the statutes of life, committing no iniquity—they shall surely live; they shall not die.
16 None of the sins that they have committed shall be remembered against them; they have done what is lawful and right; they shall surely live.
Ezekiel 33:14-16

 

[The_Doc_Man]

So why is it still happening now?

Because Islam is too full of hate to stop killing those who publicly disagree with them and thus triggers further armed conflicts.

In an earlier post, I pointed out that I didn't care for the Bible's admonitions that were fairly to seriously violent, either. Religion sometimes makes people do some extremely egregious things. I figured you would bring that up - but all it does is reinforce my overall position that religion too often spurs people to do improperly aggressive things to innocent people. So...

The problem as I see it is that you have drunk the poisoned chalice of Kufr for so long that you cannot taste its bitterness.

Sorry to disappoint you, but kufr (=disbelief) actually isn't bitter at all. It is simple. And it makes it possible for me to analyze things without worrying about what would Jesus do or what would Muhammad do or what would Buddha do. Or Odin or Zeus or Ahura Mazda or Dagon... none of them need enter into the discussion. I don't have religion to warp my sense of simple morality. "Do no needless harm." That lets me protect myself when needed but otherwise guides me to let well enough alone most of the time.

All I have to worry about is what people would do, and we have recently seen what "peaceful" Islam would do. Kill children and women and the elderly. And bombard commercial shipping. I am aware of the Islamic guidelines that forbid killing children, women, and the elderly - but it happens anyway because there are exceptions when those women, children, and elderly people are ... by Islamic standards ... infidels. You wave your hands, say "Infidels", and start shooting. We've seen it recently.

I suppose now you will tell me that the conflict has resulted in actions that no true Muslim would perform. We have seen the "no true Christian" argument often enough that if you pull out "no true Muslim" in response, we will be able to just laugh it off.

 

[aziz rasul]

Because Islam is too full of hate to stop killing those who publicly disagree with them and thus triggers further armed conflicts.

Why no mention of the killing by non Muslims, which is the majority? You see how you as a disbeliever show no fairness despite what you say. This shows the hypocrisy. You don't believe any justice. This reinforces the predictive behaviour of disbelievers like you.

Sorry to disappoint you, but kufr (=disbelief) actually isn't bitter at all.

It is as far as Islam is concerned. That is why kaafirs will end up in HELL.

71. And those who DISBELIEVED will be driven to HELL in groups until, when they reach it, its gates are opened and its keepers will say, "Did there not come to you messengers from yourselves, reciting to you the verses of your Lord and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say, "Yes, but the word of PUNISHMENT has come into effect upon the DISBELIEVERS.
72. [To them] it will be said, "Enter the gates of HELL to abide ETERNALLY therein, and WRETCHED is the residence of the ARROGANT."
Qur'an 39:71-72

46. The FIRE, they are exposed to it morning and evening. And the Day the Hour appears [it will be said], "Make the people of Pharaoh enter the severest punishment."
49. And those in the FIRE will say to the keepers of HELL, "Supplicate your Lord to lighten for us a day from the PUNISHMENT."
50. They will say, "Did there not come to you your messengers with clear proofs?" They will say, "Yes." They will reply, "Then supplicate [yourselves], but the supplication of the DISBELIEVERS is not except in error."
70. Those who DENY the Book and that with which We sent Our messengers - they are going to know,
71. When the SHACKLES are around their NECKS and the chains; they will be dragged
72. In BOILING water; then in the FIRE they will be filled [with FLAME].
Qur'an 40:46, 49-50, 70-72

All I have to worry about is what people would do ...

You need to worry about what the angels of punishment will do and we have recently seen what "hateful" jews\zionists\christians are prepared to do. Kill children and women and the elderly and the mentally retarded... etc.

.. infidels ...

Infidels is not an Islamic word but a word invented by christians to refer to non christians. Get you facts right. Christians used the term infidel to describe those perceived as the enemies of Christianity. The western media introduced this word to denote non-Muslims. This word does not appear in the Qur'an. The word to denote disbelievers is Kaafir i.e. those who know the truth but cover it up within themselves and to others. That is why Kaafirs will spend eternity in HELL as they knew the truth and rejected it. Good luck with that. You won't be "laughing" there. LOOL.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Kaafir i.e. those who know the truth but cover it up within themselves

As opposed to those of us who know the truth?

There is no Allah or any other supernatural deity and EVERY death is final. You do, in fact, go with your gods, since they don't exist either. But there is no pain or joy, no awareness. You cease to exist when your brain can no longer sustain its internal electrical operations. The light goes out.

If you look at Ecclesiastes 9:5 and a few more verses behind it, that is all you need to know. No avenging, angry, authoritarian figure looks over your shoulder. There is no need to give in to the paranoia engendered by all of this "God" or "Allah" "watches over you and will judge you for your deeds." Ain't gonna happen.