Time for a new Political Debate

[mr_fish]

Its all about image, the image of the USA is fairly low, being the most hated nation in the world (since Bush took over) - how do US posters think this can be rectified? can it be rectified? do the USA people care about their image? or is it just a "sod it, we're the greatest and we don't give a toss about anyone"

These are the lyrics of a song I heard that gives a new spin on the situation: -

Here's an interesting bit of conspiracy theory for you...

George Bush is an Islamic fundamentalist, obviously
Trained by Al Qaeda in the heart of Texas to fight for the faithful army
He's now in the process of uniting the rest of the world against the good old U S of A
The land of the free will come crashing down if he has his way

It's the only explanation, old Bushy boy is an Islamic Fundamentalist
He's three quarters the way through his plan already and no-one's even noticed
That must be a damn-fine Al Qaeda training camp they've got down there in Texas (Yee ha!)
Getting him to pretend he's as thick as pig-shit was a stroke of pure bloody genius

Yeah, George Bush is an Islamic fundamentalist, obviously
Trained by Al Qaeda in the heart of Texas to fight for the faithful army
He's now in the process of uniting the rest of the world against the good old U S of A
The land of the free will come crashing down if he has his way, trust me

He's presided over and has been involved with one of the worst financial disasters of a generation
Every move he makes seems to be directly against the interests of his nation, haven't you noticed?
He's used the media to increase the social insulation of an already fairly bland population, since the McCarthy days
And now he's declared war on Islam just to increase the consternation

As far as I can see there's only one explanation
George Bush is an Islamic fundamentalist, obviously

These days on the street you hear all kind of interesting conspiracy theories cos no-one knows what the f**k's going on, we're all looking for explanations
The most interesting one I heard the other day was that the West was controlled by genuine democracies that actually represent the will of their populations
Only the one about the aliens, the anti-Christ and the Freemasons is more laughable. Ha ha ha ha.

I think my theory is much more plasible, let me tell you about it, it goes like this,
George Bush is an Islamic fundamentalist, obviously
It really is the only explanation I can see
For his truly anti-American foreign policy.

Now, at this point, I would ask you all to sing along with the chorus, normally. If it wasn't for the fact that there are cameras on the premises and the CIA might be requisitioning the tapes at any time. So I recommend that at under all circumstances, catchy though this numbers is, you do not sing along, you do not even smile. I recommend the most you do is tap your feet. But you do that at your own risk.

 

[FoFa]

That's a nonsensical argument, how many tankers have been used in this way in the States, you can't conceal a frigging tanker.
You guys still treat the country as if it were the wild west and you didn't answer my question about how you'd feel if one of your kids was blasted to bits by one of these pop guns

Just because it hasn't does not make it so. Just my point a wacko wanting to kill a lot of people has many means, not just guns. And for the most part if you want to kill a lot of people, guns are not the way to do it (unless you have an army). That is one reason behind the suicide bombers. They get a group of people with a bomb where with a gun they a get one or two usually.

I would feel terrible, but I know it is not the fault of some inanimate object none the less. I would like to see the person responsible burn in hell, not the vehicule they used.

and truthfully, I think it is a stupid question.

 

[FoFa]

that the first thing the police patrolman did after pulling someone over for speeding was to pull his gun out before approaching the driver.
Now the question is why did he do that? and what was he expecting to happen if "totin' a gun" is as rare as you make out it is.

I have never seen a cop pull a gun on an average traffic stop, even on black's Rich. How ever I bet you don't get the average traffic stop on TV either. If the car is stolen, or some other illegal vocation is involved, then that is a different story all together. And in that case yes, they could have a gun, or a knife, or a tire iron even.

 

[FoFa]

Its all about image, the image of the USA is fairly low, being the most hated nation in the world (since Bush took over) - how do US posters think this can be rectified? can it be rectified?

Do we care?
We have more nukes than you, NANEE NANEE BOO BOO

 

[jsanders]

And with that statement you finally damn yourself.

Please explane that to me.

 

[reclusivemonkey]

Obligatory GLC Reply

Guns don't kill people, rappers do. I've seen it on a documentary on BBC 2.

 

[Kraj]

Yowza! What a thread!

... I have to ask why would somebody be arrested for possession of Cocaine whether they intended to use it or not?

I'm confused too. What does cocaine possession have to do with this discussion?

Why not reach for a stun gun instead,

In this country, law enforcement are trained to draw their weapon only if, in their judgement, deadly force is necessary. A man with a bomb in an airport could kill hundreds of people in a matter of seconds. The priority is stopping that person and protecting the innocent people being threatened. The problem with stun guns is they are not always effective, have limited range, and if you miss you're screwed. A stun gun is not what you want to use when in a "it's him or me (or these 200 people)" situation.

Doesn't the arts and entertainment industry reflect a country's culture?

Yes, it does. The key word here is "culture". The entertainment industry does not reflect reality.

Remind me again who forced Alabama to allow equal education, the State of Alabama or National government with a leader who had the balls to tackle the problem.

According to you, Americans don't get an education at all, so the point is moot isn't it?

Actually quite forgot about that one. You do hold a grudge (so to speak).

Not at all. That was the only thing I could think of when you refered to "Kraj's" site of bad information, but I guess it was just a poke at me.

You have spent alot of time explaining that the USA is nowhere near "Dirty Harry" or any fictional TV show, so "Dallas" and "The Waltons" bear no resemblence to reality? - is there any TV show that reflects actual American life?

No, that's what we've been trying to tell you. Television is for entertainment. You don't see actual American life on TV because actual Americans are already experiencing actual American life and it is not entertaining.

Fair enough, but in a reality TV "fly-on-the-wall" police show - I was merely making the point that the first thing the police patrolman did after pulling someone over for speeding was to pull his gun out before approaching the driver.

Now the question is why did he do that? and what was he expecting to happen if "totin' a gun" is as rare as you make out it is.

Without seeing the show, I can't offer more than educated guesses. But I can say that I've seen the show "Cops" plenty and even on that show (which is edited to maximize the action) it's rare for the police to draw their weapon.

how do US posters think this can be rectified? can it be rectified? do the USA people care about their image? or is it just a "sod it, we're the greatest and we don't give a toss about anyone"

Based on the election results, I'd say just a smidge over half the country doesn't give a toss while the other half would like to see changes made. I'm not entirely sure how the situation can be rectified, but a start would be getting Bush and his cronies out of power. Beyond that, I don't know. Irregardless of who's in the White House, the United States is always going to put it's own interests first (as I think any nation ultimately should). As long as we're the economically and militarily strongest nation in the world, we're going to be doing things people don't like.

Personally I give credit to the US in that when the India/Pakistan earthquake happened recently, the US military were in there airlifting and dropping supplies within a day or so - that was bloody impressive stuff in terribly remote areas. (Kraj, note thats a compliment to the USA )

Compliment noted Maybe we're finally getting a clue. But it's probably more like we had all this stuff lying around from previous disasters and a use for it just happened to come up.

I think this is where you're missing the point. Firstly. You cannot legislate for someones future intention to use something in a criminal manner. No laws will protect you from someone who has a gun and intends to use it to kill.

I agree. But this point is basically legal philosophy and the same logic could be used to argue the opposite position. If you cannot legislate intent, then how can it be right to take guns away from those whose intentions are legal?

Secondly. Most things in life serve a purpose. A motor vehicle may be used in a criminal manner but it also allows freedom to travel. In the form of an ambulance or a fire appliance to save lives. A gun has only 2 functions as i see it, target practice or killing. Neither of which would be a loss to a modern western society.

I agree. Frankly, I hate guns, but just because I hate something doesn't mean everyone else has to. I hate cigarettes too. Cigarettes have no redeeming value and cause physical and social harm. But I don't believe cigarettes should be outlawed, and apparently neither does the UK.

How can you remove firearms from the general public if they are used as a matter of course by criminals? [...] You need a de-escalation policy and i can't honestly see how that is going to happen. I think you've unintentionally created a situation that has left you desensitized to the violence with no way out.

Again, I agree. I think it's telling, though, that you note there is no way out of the situation. I don't think that's entirely true, but I think that simplistic solutions will not work. ("Historical Mindedness is ... suspicion of simplistic responses to human problems.")

We had a policewoman killed a few weeks back in an armed incident - with non-uk citizens - and the whole country was aware of it. It was headline news for nearly a week. Could you say the same for the death of a police man/woman? That's a genuine question.

Finally! An easy answer: not a chance.

 

[jsanders]

Kraj,
How come you always leave me out of you quotes? I’m hurt you know.

 

[Kraj]

Kraj,
How come you always leave me out of you quotes? I’m hurt you know.

Is that better?

I seem to have lost an entire chunk of my response and I thought it was important so I'm adding it here.

What I can't seem to get across to people here, is that this is the way people perceive life to be in the USA and it seems to be getting worse.
Whilst I believe Kraj /Ken /Cindy /TessB etc when they say its not the norm -what you have to do is look at the image that the USA portrays to the rest of the world.

People that have never been to the USA can only judge on what they see - rightly or wrongly - its easy for a US poster to dismiss it as totally wrong.

Colin, I think you've made it perfectly clear how you and other folks around the world perceive life in the U.S. And I agree that the image the United States projects is very important and valid to discuss. I also agree that conclusions based on your perceptions are perfectly valid, since that is the information you have available.

Where I and the others you mentioned have issue is your tendancy to reject new information based on real-life experience in favor of your perceptions based on the media. Perhaps if I provide a reverse example my point will be more clear:

I start watching BBC every day and I see story upon story of how prevalent yobbish behavior is in Essex. Whenenver I see a story that mentions Essex, it's always about yobs. After a while, I come to hold the opinion that Essex is mostly populated by yobs because that's how it's being portrayed in the news. I then post such a comment online, and you inform me that yobs are a relatively small group of troublemakers who are becoming a large problem and are simply given a lot of time on the news. Which source is more reliable? Wouldn't it be frustrating if I dismissed your assertions and insisted that Essex is, in fact, full of yobs?

 

[Rich]

In this country, law enforcement are trained to draw their weapon only if, in their judgement, deadly force is necessary.

That's very nearly every threatening situation because there are so many guns in circulation.
It's an automatic reaction by the cops over there, we had a cop over here from Texas who's now returning home because every time he feels threatened he wants to reach for a gun. It's a gun loving society that's created this as an automatic reaction.

Yes, it does. The key word here is "culture". The entertainment industry does not reflect reality.

But you have a gun culture and that is reflected in your entertainment industry.

According to you, Americans don't get an education at all, so the point is moot isn't it?

I've never said all Americans aren't educated, but then I've never said all Americans are armed to the teeth.

 

[Bat17]

I hate cigarettes too. Cigarettes have no redeeming value and cause physical and social harm. But I don't believe cigarettes should be outlawed, and apparently neither does the UK.

But we do have a 500% tax rate on them and a garuntee that the tax level increases will excede the inflation increase ever year, maybe the same tax on Guns/Ammo would reduce the sales abit

Peter

 

[ColinEssex]

I start watching BBC every day and I see story upon story of how prevalent yobbish behavior is in Essex. Whenenver I see a story that mentions Essex, it's always about yobs. After a while, I come to hold the opinion that Essex is mostly populated by yobs because that's how it's being portrayed in the news. I then post such a comment online, and you inform me that yobs are a relatively small group of troublemakers who are becoming a large problem and are simply given a lot of time on the news. Which source is more reliable? Wouldn't it be frustrating if I dismissed your assertions and insisted that Essex is, in fact, full of yobs?

Your example is actually very accurate. There are loads of yobs in Essex. If you watch any UK police reality show you will see that its very true. Likewise if you read any Essex paper on a monday, it refers to the fights and arrests over the weekend.

In Essex we have a very strong yobbish culture fuelled by excess drink, particularly on a friday and saturday night. This is called "binge drinking" and affects many town centres nationwide at night.

There are many people who avoid the town centres at night due to this yobbish binge drinking behaviour, fighting, attacking passers by, antisocial behaviour etc etc. The place is swarming with police trying to keep order.

I have been in our town centre at 2am and its heaving with young people drunk and people fighting after turning out of the clubs, there are as many people in the town centre at 2am as there is during a normal shopping day. Sadly, the majority (both male and female) are very drunk. I've actually seen young girls (and lads) pass out in the street with too much drink. It is a really big problem in the UK.

In order to curb this binge drinking, the government has now extended the drinking hours.

Note: "Binge drinking" is where a people try to drink as much as possible in an evening before the pubs / clubs close. Hence the drinking hours extension. But when they're drinking neat vodka and tequila with one swallow, they soon become uncontrollable - and in many cases, violent.

The police usually arrest them and put them in the slammer overnight and release them next day.

Col

 

[The Stoat]

Please explane that to me.

Easy.

You've eluded to the idea that Black Americans are a burden on your society in previous discussions and this confirms what you think about them. Your argument that your society is somehow a functioning group of immigrant peoples is damned by your statement that this immigrant group are no more than a collection of whiners. It's clear to most people that they have suffered and still suffer from predjudice. A predjudice which you clearly displayed in your comment by your gross generalization and belief that you can tell someone's ethnicity by the words they write. Before you state all the lego-political moves to introduce equality and the enshrined rights that Black people now have I would point out that they would be entirely unnecessary if people just treated each other humanly in the first place.

TS

 

[The Stoat]

I agree. But this point is basically legal philosophy and the same logic could be used to argue the opposite position. If you cannot legislate intent, then how can it be right to take guns away from those whose intentions are legal?

You could argue it from a philosophical point of view but that belies the reality. We do legislate for things that are deemed in the common good and limit the freedoms of people to do as they might please. For example speed limits, not everyone who has a car will intend to drive recklessly quickly, true? The obvious reality is we weigh up the rights of the individuals against each other and the group. If we are brutal there are economic reasons for the sale of guns but they also have cost in terms of healthcare, loss of earnings of victims - not just talking dead people obviously - and their families. And there are obviously human costs. The US appears to have weighed these economic costs and decided that they and the 17,000 lives a year that are lost do not outweigh the benefits of keeping the commerical arms industry in business. As societies we sacrifice certain freedoms for the common good, we sacrificed gun ownership in favour of a reduced level of gun deaths and injuries. I simply suggest that this is one area where the sacrifice isn't actually that great, it's more to do with an unwillingness to lose a freedom and a strong pro-gun lobby.

TS

 

[ColinEssex]

I guess you guys in the UK haven't gotten the memo yet: reality shows aren't reality. They're edited, they're scripted, and they're produced.

You have spent alot of time explaining that the USA is nowhere near "Dirty Harry" or any fictional TV show, so "Dallas" and "The Waltons" bear no resemblence to reality? - is there any TV show that reflects actual American life?

No, that's what we've been trying to tell you. Television is for entertainment. You don't see actual American life on TV because actual Americans are already experiencing actual American life and it is not entertaining.

Ok lets recap

1) There is no TV show in the USA that reflects American life - so what we see on TV (via US programmes) is not American life

2) Reality USA police shows are not reality (scripted and edited) - so the US police TV reality shows are not reality.

3) We've already established ages ago your TV news is biased to only showing good things (not dead soldiers coffins coming back from Iraq)

Therefore, anything that comes from the USA on TV or film (fiction or reality) is nowhere near the truth. Hmmm . . . . . . interesting.

I can only say, what a sad society it must be in the USA knowing that all you see on TV is made-up, censored, untrue, biased TV programmes. Presumably the newspapers are the same.

Its sad really that you never get to see the real truth about whats going on in the world - that must be why Americans (people) are blissfully unaware of reality and go round chanting that the USA is the greatest nation etc.

Does your government tell you that Fahrenheit 9/11 is all lies? would that ever be shown on national network TV?

Col

 

[Rich]

Ok lets recap

Does your government tell you that Fahrenheit 9/11 is all lies? would that ever be shown on national network TV?

Col

mmmm, let's see, who was that guy that was immediately censored by the networks for stating on air that Bush hated blacks, whilst at the same time posting Bush's lies with regular monotony

 

[FoFa]

In Essex we have a very strong yobbish culture fuelled by excess drink, particularly on a friday and saturday night. This is called "binge drinking" and affects many town centres nationwide at night.

Sounds like alcohol should be banned, or at least taxed 500% to limit this unsocial behavoir!

 

[FoFa]

You've eluded to the idea that Black Americans are a burden on your society in previous discussions and this confirms what you think about them. Your argument that your society is somehow a functioning group of immigrant peoples is damned by your statement that this immigrant group are no more than a collection of whiners. It's clear to most people that they have suffered and still suffer from predjudice.

Or maybe you are jumping to conculsions. OK I can't speak for jsanders, but there is a subculture (not just blacks mind you, all races) that would rather be at the lowers levels of the income ladder and not work and just collect a check from the government. Without starting a debate on who's fault that is, it seems the black portion of this subculture is shown more on TV than the others. I can't say if there are actually more blacks in this subculture or not, because even if they had statistics on this, I would think they would not be accurate because not all people come out in the open to be counted so to say. I can not say there is not any predjudice either, that would be an idiots statement. There is predjudice everywhere there are people. But what I can say is that the American culture is broadened and enriched by people from all over.

 

[ColinEssex]

Sounds like alcohol should be banned, or at least taxed 500% to limit this unsocial behavoir!

Alcohol is banned for persons under 18 and is heavily taxed.

I don't know how youngsters can afford it night after night.

This unsociable behaviour is a British thing, it doesn't happen in Europe (except where the British go - like Ibiza, or Greece) Thats why there will be trouble at next years world cup finals in Germany, the English will be fuelled up wanting to fight the Germans.

Col

ps - World Cup is the soccer tournament where all countries are allowed to enter - not like the USA's World Series where only the USA play

 

[FoFa]

This unsociable behaviour is a British thing, it doesn't happen in Europe (except where the British go - like Ibiza, or Greece) Thats why there will be trouble at next years world cup finals in Germany, the English will be fuelled up wanting to fight the Germans.

So in reality the Brits should be banned, or at least taxed 500%