Time for a new Political Debate

[ColinEssex]

So in reality the Brits should be banned, or at least taxed 500%

Possibly, - incidentally there was a time when some English football clubs fans were banned from travelling to overseas games because of violent behaviour.

Plus, if you add all the different taxes we pay, I suspect your 500% is not far off. We are taxed on almost everything these days.

Col

 

[Mile-O]

Just the English. If the Scots were good enough to go to Germany they wouldn't have caused any trouble.

 

[ColinEssex]

Just the English. If the Scots were good enough to go to Germany they wouldn't have caused any trouble.

Sadly we'll never know

Col

 

[Kraj]

That's very nearly every threatening situation because there are so many guns in circulation.

But you have a gun culture and that is reflected in your entertainment industry.

Well, I can say that what goes on in Texas is not what goes on in Illinois. Gun ownership is much less prevalent in the northern states and therefore the gun culture is not the same.

All in all, however, I pretty much agree with you.

Your example is actually very accurate.

That's quite unfortunate since, if it wasn't, I may have gotten my point across.

As societies we sacrifice certain freedoms for the common good, we sacrificed gun ownership in favour of a reduced level of gun deaths and injuries. I simply suggest that this is one area where the sacrifice isn't actually that great, it's more to do with an unwillingness to lose a freedom and a strong pro-gun lobby.

I agree entirely. Unfortunately, I also think the culture of violence in this country is so ingrained that it will take a major trauma to correct it (much like an addict must hit rock bottom in order to recover). I don't believe changing gun laws or entertainment laws, etc., will work. I don't think government can force this change onto people. Perhaps that's just me being pessimistic.

Ok lets recap

1) There is no TV show in the USA that reflects American life - so what we see on TV (via US programmes) is not American life

2) Reality USA police shows are not reality (scripted and edited) - so the US police TV reality shows are not reality.

3) We've already established ages ago your TV news is biased to only showing good things (not dead soldiers coffins coming back from Iraq)

Therefore, anything that comes from the USA on TV or film (fiction or reality) is nowhere near the truth. Hmmm . . . . . . interesting.

Yep, that's pretty accurate, except that you've changed terminology. Truth and reality are very different concepts. A movie you see may portray a culture of violence in the U.S. That is true. The same movie might lead you to believe most police officers shoot criminals on a daily basis. That is not reality. Truth deals in concepts, reality deals in facts.

It's fair to discuss concepts about American social issues based on your perceived truth. But when you discuss real-life solutions, you need to deal with the facts.

I can only say, what a sad society it must be in the USA knowing that all you see on TV is made-up, censored, untrue, biased TV programmes. Presumably the newspapers are the same.

I agree with the sentiment, but newspapers (and news television programs) are not the same. Some influences are similar, yes, but newspapers and other news media do not exist for entertainment purposes. Some networks might choose to pander to a certain audience, but most real news networks at least attempt to maintain journalistic integrity. One of the social costs of capitalism, however, is that successfull businesses give consumers what they want, not necessarily what's good for them. We, as a society, have chosen our own shallowness.

Its sad really that you never get to see the real truth about whats going on in the world - that must be why Americans (people) are blissfully unaware of reality and go round chanting that the USA is the greatest nation etc.

I'm not intending this statement to be belligerent or provocative, but to be honest... in the couple years I've been in the Watercooler reading comments from you and some of the others from the UK about how you perceive the U.S., I've seen volumes worth of posts that I know are biased, inaccurate, or totally false. I have a hard time believing what you describe above is all that different in the UK. Sorry if you find that offensive.

Does your government tell you that Fahrenheit 9/11 is all lies?

No, because if they did all someone would have to do is produce a speck of proof to shred them to pieces. Instead they attack Michael Moore.

would that ever be shown on national network TV?

Not likely, but what purpose would it serve if it was? The majority of Bush supporters continue to do so despite his obvious incompetence and hypocrisy. Is that movie going to change their minds? The majority of people who don't supoprt Bush already can't stand him, so all that movie would do is throw another log on the fire. And the majority of people who really don't care still won't care.

 

[ColinEssex]

Its sad really that you never get to see the real truth about whats going on in the world - that must be why Americans (people) are blissfully unaware of reality and go round chanting that the USA is the greatest nation etc.

I have a hard time believing what you describe above is all that different in the UK. Sorry if you find that offensive.

Not at all offensive, but just to clarify - we in the UK don't go round chanting that the USA is the greatest nation - fact Not sure where you got that idea we did from

Your example is actually very accurate.

That's quite unfortunate since, if it wasn't, I may have gotten my point across.

I know the point you were making, but I find it almost spooky that you were so accurate with a "made up" example. (is "gotten" a real word used in the US? )

Col

 

[Rich]

we in the UK don't go round chanting that the USA is the greatest nation Col

Or that the UK is since Bliar took office

 

[Kraj]

I know the point you were making, but I find it almost spooky that you were so accurate with a "made up" example. (is "gotten" a real word used in the US? )

A quick Google yeilded an explaination from Dr. Grammar better than what I could have come up with:

Have got or have gotten?
According to Patricia O'Conner, author of Woe Is I, "At one time, everyone agreed that the verb get had two past participles: got and gotten.... It's true that the British stopped using have gotten about three hundred years ago, while we in the Colonies kept using both have got and have gotten. But the result is not that Americans speak improper English. The result is that we have retained a nuance of meaning that the Britons have lost.
When we say, Bruce has got three Armani suits, we mean he has them in his possession. It's another way of saying he has them.
When we say, Bruce has gotten three Armani suits, we mean he's acquired or obtained them.
It's a useful distinction...

 

[The Stoat]

I agree entirely. Unfortunately, I also think the culture of violence in this country is so ingrained that it will take a major trauma to correct it (much like an addict must hit rock bottom in order to recover). I don't believe changing gun laws or entertainment laws, etc., will work. I don't think government can force this change onto people. Perhaps that's just me being pessimistic.

That's interesting because the trigger - no pun intended - for the gun restrictions we now have in the UK was a massacre at a school in Scotland.

http://century.guardian.co.uk/1990-1999/Story/0,6051,112749,00.html

You've had similar experiences in the US with the massacre at Columbine most prominent among them. What in your opinion would consitute a major trauma?

 

[jsanders]

Easy.

You've eluded to the idea that Black Americans are a burden on your society in previous discussions and this confirms what you think about them. Your argument that your society is somehow a functioning group of immigrant peoples is damned by your statement that this immigrant group are no more than a collection of whiners. It's clear to most people that they have suffered and still suffer from predjudice. A predjudice which you clearly displayed in your comment by your gross generalization and belief that you can tell someone's ethnicity by the words they write. Before you state all the lego-political moves to introduce equality and the enshrined rights that Black people now have I would point out that they would be entirely unnecessary if people just treated each other humanly in the first place.

TS

No TS,
You’re the one that wants to make this a black thing.

This generational dependence is everywhere in the Good Ol’ USA. Some of the lazy bastards climb up, some don’t.

The only thing here about race is in your mind.

All Americans (and a whole lot of illegal immigrants) have the capacity to move up. Going back to my original statement better here than anywhere else.

You just want to say the big bad Americans treat their black citizens badly.

I do know this if you’re taught as a child that you have no hope, it hard to find it on your own. Many ignorant people teach their children that lesson.

 

[The Stoat]

No TS,
You’re the one that wants to make this a black thing.

This generational dependence is everywhere in the Good Ol’ USA. Some of the lazy bastards climb up, some don’t.

The only thing here about race is in your mind.

All Americans (and a whole lot of illegal immigrants) have the capacity to move up. Going back to my original statement better here than anywhere else.

You just want to say the big bad Americans treat their black citizens badly.

I do know this if you’re taught as a child that you have no hope, it hard to find it on your own. Many ignorant people teach their children that lesson.

I'm only going by what you said. I wouldn't attempt to conclude from someones posting whether they are black, white, green or orange. Perhaps you can explain what you actually meant by ;

Just as a matter of interest how do you know who is black and who isn't?

Well have any Americans on this board whined about inequality?.

I don't think that it is unfair to say it's a racial stereotype.

TS

 

[Kraj]

What in your opinion would consitute a major trauma?

I honestly don't know, but apparently it has to be something worse than Columbine.

 

[Rich]

better here than anywhere else.

What is ?

 

[jsanders]

I don't think that it is unfair to say it's a racial stereotype.

TS

What makes you say I'm a racist.

Hint:
Claming people want to be ignorant and poor is a classist statement not racist.

 

[Brianwarnock]

What makes you say I'm a racist.

Hint:
Claming people want to be ignorant and poor is a classist statement not racist.

Try rereading posts 217 and 218

Brian

 

[jsanders]

Try rereading posts 217 and 218

Brian

That was in response to an erroneous statement TS posted earlier (I cant find the post) about him thinking that the majority of the people I described as generally ignorant where black; that being the reason I could dismiss them.

What argument do you use against that accusation?

And I don’t mean that rhetorically, I truly want an answer.

 

[Brianwarnock]

Originally Posted by The Stoat
Just as a matter of interest how do you know who is black and who isn't?

your response
Well have any Americans on this board whined about inequality?

If you cannot see that this is racist then I can't help you.

Brian

 

[jsanders]

Originally Posted by The Stoat
Just as a matter of interest how do you know who is black and who isn't?

your response
Well have any Americans on this board whined about inequality?

If you cannot see that this is racist then I can't help you.

Brian

The point Brian, which obviously you’re missing, is that people that succeed don’t complain about inequality.

I have actually raised this question among my black friends (about half of my friends are black). Whereas they do concede that inequality exist in the system, they’re more inclined to put self actualization higher on the list.

 

[Brianwarnock]

Joe it is you who is missing the point, your response to the The Stoat implied, inadvertently or not, that if anybody had whined about inequality they would have been Black, obviously I was not the only one to interpret your post that way, the onus is on you to communicate what you mean correctly.

Brian

 

[ColinEssex]

I'm with Brian on this one - your comment does lead the reader to think that only black Americans whine about inequality

and people that succeed do complain about inequality because often its the higher profile successful person that can make changes happen - like Bob Geldof complaining about Africa's inequality, Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther-King, Charities like Oxfam, Medicine Sans Frontier the list is endless.

The problem is making those who actually can change things listen to the people and not go off on a hair brained scheme for no possible use to the world.

Col

 

[jsanders]

I'm with Brian on this one - your comment does lead the reader to think that only black Americans whine about inequality

and people that succeed do complain about inequality because often its the higher profile successful person that can make changes happen - like Bob Geldof complaining about Africa's inequality, Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther-King, Charities like Oxfam, Medicine Sans Frontier the list is endless.

The problem is making those who actually can change things listen to the people and not go off on a hair brained scheme for no possible use to the world.

Col

This was definitely a communication problem. Every one that knows me believes me to be one of the least racist people they know.

That includes black folks, white folks, and every thing in between.

If you’re going to quote me here is the quote.

Generational ignorance is the biggest enemy of poor Americans.

It knows no race, ethnicity, or culture.