Time for a new Political Debate

[ColinEssex]

A much more accurate view would be to compare the US with Europe not Great Britain. So why don’t you guys take your tax money and fix the unemployment problem in France?

France???? you must be joking - I'm not sure the British would relish paying to solve the frogs unemployment problems. They're quite happy to burn our sheep and cause summer disruption with strikes - let the frogs sort out their own problems.

Or maybe you should fix what ever ails Turkey I’m sure you guys could straighten them out.

we could do, but unlike the US, we try not to just barge in and tell another country what they should believe in etc

It’s easy to condemn us from your place on a small mostly monogenetic island. We are spread out over a huge geographical area. And what ya’ll continue to misunderstand is; we are a nation of states.We do not have a central culture.

so whats the Prez there for then if you all do your own thing anyway?

I think most of the British guys that post on this site actually have no idea what life is like here.

Is it not the American dream then? a land of milk and honey or whatever the constitution says

Col

 

[The Stoat]

The problem with this discussion is you are trying to compare the US based on a paradigm that exists in Britain.

A much more accurate view would be to compare the US with Europe not Great Britain. So why don’t you guys take your tax money and fix the unemployment problem in France?

Or maybe you should fix what ever ails Turkey I’m sure you guys could straighten them out.

It’s easy to condemn us from your place on a small mostly monogenetic island. We are spread out over a huge geographical area. And what ya’ll continue to misunderstand is; we are a nation of states.

We do not have a central culture.


I think most of the British guys that post on this site actually have no idea what life is like here. You continuously try to lump us into a group. There is no group America. It’s an amalgamation of people from all over the world.

If you have such cultural diversity and no central culture then why don't you accept that people from these different cultures might not want to buy into your idea of the American dream - though i fail to see how you can have an American dream if there is no American culture. You condemn yourselves if you support an argument that says all immigrants are equal but some of us are more equal than others. So much for a political debate what's the point if the views of 1/3 of people are considered null and void. How do you expect to solve anything with that attitude? Perhaps you should stop talking about the success of your "country" and start with the success of your State if that is the way you feel about it? Maybe the success of your parent country what ever that might have been?

TS

 

[jsanders]

If you have such cultural diversity and no central culture then why don't you accept that people from these different cultures might not want to buy into your idea of the American dream - though i fail to see how you can have an American dream if there is no American culture. You condemn yourselves if you support an argument that says all immigrants are equal but some of us are more equal than others. So much for a political debate what's the point if the views of 1/3 of people are considered null and void. How do you expect to solve anything with that attitude? Perhaps you should stop talking about the success of your "country" and start with the success of your State if that is the way you feel about it? Maybe the success of your parent country what ever that might have been?

TS

It's not that the bottom 1/3 doesn't count; those are your words.

I said the bottom 1/3 is ignorant and poor.

What you guys completely fail to understand is they WANT to be that way. There is no need to help them. They want to get a hand out from Uncle Sam, take their food stamps to the local store and buy a 6 pack.

Why do you feel like I should solve their problems?

And by the way no one ask them to participate in the American Dream, but their participation is that they have the freedom to be ignorant.

Like I said you have absolutely no reference point here.

When you (Great Britain) spend all your money to solve Europe’s problems, then you will have a leg to stand on.

 

[ColinEssex]

When you (Great Britain) spend all your money to solve Europe’s problems, then you will have a leg to stand on.

Why would the UK want to solve Europes problems? Thats what the EU is there for not the UK.
The UK gets a healthy several billion pound rebate per year from the EU because of the French being paid so much via the common agricultural policy.

Now, the stupid French and the bloody Germans are up-in-arms about our rebate but casually forget its there because of their greedy farmers subsidies.

Col

 

[jsanders]

Why would the UK want to solve Europes problems? Thats what the EU is there for not the UK.
The UK gets a healthy several billion pound rebate per year from the EU because of the French being paid so much via the common agricultural policy.

Now, the stupid French and the bloody Germans are up-in-arms about our rebate but casually forget its there because of their greedy farmers subsidies.

Col

That answers the debate.

 

[ColinEssex]

That answers the debate.

What does? the fact that the British don't like being part of the EU?

Col

 

[jsanders]

Having defended all this.

I’m going to change horses, for a while.

The real problem in the U.S. today is one thing.

Corporate greed and power.

Most people here and I expect there as well have no idea of the extent of this power. It’s why the poor bastards at the bottom don’t have health insurance.

It’s the reason millions of American jobs are moving to China, which is going to create millions more, that don’t have insurance.

It’s the reason we have such a huge illegal immigration problem.

America’s international prestige has diminished because of GWB and Company, he give you guys something to focus on. But he’s not the real problem.

The real problem is globalization. And believe it or not you will eventually be affected by it as well.

 

[The Stoat]

Well I’ve been trying to tell you this for months. And you guys still don’t listen.
The bottom 1/3 of the US population doesn’t count. Their only desire is to stay ignorant and poor.

No they are your words.

I'm not suggesting that you should solve their problems. I'm suggesting that a system that creates people who feel that they have no role to play in the greater well being of a culture both from the perspective of working to improve themselves or by creating people who do not see that an economic underclass might be a major failing of that system shows that the system is both flawed and corrupt.

But as you say there is no system there is no culture and by that argument you can neither justify yourself nor condemn them against a set of principles that you clearly do not believe in. If there is no America then how can:

..American [be] the first to take off from a ship.

how can there be?

one American Eagle.

where did this name come from?

It's called Americas Cup after the first yacht that won it.

 

[Kraj]

My statistics were a tongue in cheek rebutal for the previous attempts to prove that America was a superior race by posting the number of Noble prizes awarded.

You misunderstood my intent; I thought I made it clear that I did not agree with jsanders' sentiment (ie., Americans are the best, etc.).

I simply showed that based on a certain criteria (granted, a rather arbitrary *but reasonable* one) America - as a nation - has been the single greatest contributor to scientific, mathematical and literary pursuits for the past century. While that's no reason to have an inflated sense of superiority, it is a reason to be proud as a citizen and expect a small degree of recognition and respect, just as almost every person in almost every country in the world has pride in their nation.

I also think jsanders made a very interesting point that is relevant to almost every discussion in this Watercooler: the United States is more closely comparable to the continent of Europe/EU than an individual country. When evaluating the social or political conditions in the U.S. and making points about what should/could be changed, our European friends often look at it from the perspective of what is done in their own country, when the more accurate comparisson would be to examine how the EU handles it. I'm sure you will see the challenges are much greater when attempting to serve the interests of people from 50 different countries and vast cultures than one country with limited cultural variation. I think it could go a long way in improving constructive communication.

 

[jsanders]

No they are your words.

I'm not suggesting that you should solve their problems. I'm suggesting that a system that creates people who feel that they have no role to play in the greater well being of a culture both from the perspective of working to improve themselves or by creating people who do not see that an economic underclass might be a major failing of that system shows that the system is both flawed and corrupt.

But as you say there is no system there is no culture and by that argument you can neither justify yourself nor condemn them against a set of principles that you clearly do not believe in. If there is no America then how can:




how can there be?



where did this name come from?

They dont count in the statistics.

 

[MrsGorilla]

Is it not the American dream then? a land of milk and honey or whatever the constitution says

I don't think that's mentioned anywhere in the constitution. What it does say is that we have the freedom to pursue the "American dream" as you call it. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is what the constitution says. Happiness is not guaranteed for every citizen, but we all have the same freedom to pursue it. The point that jsanders was trying to make with his comment about the bottom 1/3 of the population is that some people think it is too much work to try to better themselves and would rather just sit at home and collect a free check every month for doing nothing. Sometimes people are able to break free from that but when you have a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th generation welfare recipient it becomes harder because that is what they have learned from their parents and grandparents, etc. and it is the only way of life that they know.

 

[The Stoat]

I also think jsanders made a very interesting point that is relevant to almost every discussion in this Watercooler: the United States is more closely comparable to the continent of Europe/EU than an individual country. When evaluating the social or political conditions in the U.S. and making points about what should/could be changed, our European friends often look at it from the perspective of what is done in their own country, when the more accurate comparisson would be to examine how the EU handles it. I'm sure you will see the challenges are much greater when attempting to serve the interests of people from 50 different countries and vast cultures than one country with limited cultural variation. I think it could go a long way in improving constructive communication.

The problem with that approach is the EU doesn't function like the US. You might as well argue that Africa is a comparison or any Continent with a broad political aim but the fact is in order for the comparision to be affective the structures need to be the same. Europe can't agree to a single constitution on how to handle trade and political situations. Two of the most pro-european nations rejected it as they felt it would dilute their sovereignty and culture. We still have a mulitude of currencies we have 41 official languages and over 220 "unofficial" ones. We have a principle agreement for a European army but in reality it's no more than a subset of NATO. The EU has no tax raising powers and it's money is gained by donation - and that is often one way traffic. We don't have an elected president. We don't really like each other that much most of the time - politically speaking. We are 25 sovereign nations that have joined a club whose original intention was to reduce the likelyhood of a European war and free up restrictive trade practices. It's snowballed since then but we have nothing like the consensus that the US has on domestic or foreign policy and certainly if there was a vote tommorrow on whether England should remain part of it i wouldn't be at all surprised if we voted to leave. Most of us, i think it's fair to say, don't see ourselves as European culturally or politically. No matter what anyone has said so far all the Americans i know and have met would consider themselves American first and say Californian second or perhaps Italian American or African American. The best way i can put this is if the Stars and Stripes was lying in the middle of a road how long would it remain there? If the Eu flag was left lying around it wouldn't stand a chance. I'd certainly wipe my bum on it. Or perhaps another way. If we had presidential elections and there was 1 candidate from each country and each country had one vote. We'd have a 25 way tie. You can't say that about the US.


I'm not suggesting that running a large country or group of states is a cake walk but your structures allow this to happen. You have a system in place that allows the states to function as a coherent whole when required. And you present a single face to the rest of the world that is nothing like the EU as this recent middle-eastern conflict has proven.

When non-US people here the word America they think of a country. That's not through ignorance that is what is projected by the US. The might of America, the power of America, the American ideal, the American way, the American dream. People haven't emigrated to America because of the Idaho dream or the Kentucky Ideal.

no-one has the right to say you should not be proud of your achievements but if one accepts those achievements as American then one must accept their is an America and that it has a culture and that culture has created what it sees around itself.

TS

 

[The Stoat]

The point that jsanders was trying to make with his comment about the bottom 1/3 of the population is that some people think it is too much work to try to better themselves and would rather just sit at home and collect a free check every month for doing nothing. Sometimes people are able to break free from that but when you have a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th generation welfare recipient it becomes harder because that is what they have learned from their parents and grandparents, etc. and it is the only way of life that they know.

That's my point what kind of system allows that to continue? To what purpose? Who does it serve? It's craziness i tells ya

 

[jsanders]

That's my point what kind of system allows that to continue? To what purpose? Who does it serve? It's craziness i tells ya

If there is a unified culture in America it would be Rugged Individualism.

 

[Kraj]

The problem with that approach is the EU doesn't function like the US. [...]

All good and valid points. On the other hand, I could list just as many points that differentiate the United States from other individual countries, so I think using the EU perspective still has value. Obviously, the EU is not an exact comparrison but everything you list almost exactly describes the early U.S. under the Articles of Confederation, which I find very interesting.

If there is a unified culture in America it would be Rugged Individualism.

I can't say I agree. That may have been true 100 or even 50 years ago, but today I think you'd have to drop the "Rugged".

 

[FoFa]

The problem with that approach is the EU doesn't function like the US. You might as well argue that Africa is a comparison or any Continent with a broad political aim but the fact is in order for the comparision to be affective the structures need to be the same. Europe can't agree to a single constitution on how to handle trade and political situations.

So basically neither can be used as a comparison, as pretty much we have been trying to say for quite a long time......
And we do have squables inter-state, it is just we have Big Daddy looking out so it can't grow into a squirmish instead. And certain states think they are better (but what does New York and California know anyway ).

 

[The Stoat]

Ok looking at it from a different approach can anyone explain to me the shape of the State of Colorado? Or more precisely how it came to be a great big square

 

[jsanders]

All good and valid points. On the other hand, I could list just as many points that differentiate the United States from other individual countries, so I think using the EU perspective still has value. Obviously, the EU is not an exact comparrison but everything you list almost exactly describes the early U.S. under the Articles of Confederation, which I find very interesting.


I can't say I agree. That may have been true 100 or even 50 years ago, but today I think you'd have to drop the "Rugged".

I'm from Texas, remember?
Kicken ass and taken names.

 

[jsanders]

Of Course I don’t think Americans are better than anyone else.

We are everyone else.

But there is something to be said about genetic and cultural diversity. It’s just that it’s a sword, which unfortunately cuts in both directions.

 

[Brianwarnock]

I can't believe somebody,anybody, would write that.

Brian

I can't believe that my comment back at post16 has created such an amount of ire and hot air. It was not even an anti American statement, regular readers of the Watercooler will know that I am not anti American, but it was anti Jhotair, Kraj got close to understanding what I was about in his first post on the subject when talking of hyperbole and ostentation, me , I just call it arrogance.

Brian