Time for a new Political Debate

[jsanders]

I can't believe that my comment back at post16 has created such an amount of ire and hot air. It was not even an anti American statement, regular readers of the Watercooler will know that I am not anti American, but it was anti Jhotair, Kraj got close to understanding what I was about in his first post on the subject when talking of hyperbole and ostentation, me , I just call it arrogance.

Brian

I think it was just a bunch of ball busting to be honest with you.

We will work together to deal with what’s coming or we may perish together.

 

[MrsGorilla]

That's my point what kind of system allows that to continue? To what purpose? Who does it serve? It's craziness i tells ya

I agree and as I said, I don't have all the answers about how to fix it. Once again, I guess you don't have problems of this type over there?

I can't believe that my comment back at post16 has created such an amount of ire and hot air. It was not even an anti American statement, regular readers of the Watercooler will know that I am not anti American, but it was anti Jhotair, Kraj got close to understanding what I was about in his first post on the subject when talking of hyperbole and ostentation, me , I just call it arrogance.

I know you're not anti-American. One of our problems over here I suppose is that we are fiercely proud of what we have accomplished as a nation and even despite our widely varying cultures and customs even within our own borders we are able to present a united front to other nations. We enjoy freedoms here that other people around the world do not have and we want them to enjoy the same freedoms that we enjoy. As someone else mentioned earlier, sometimes other peoples don't want things to be that way, they may be perfectly happy to hand complete control of their lives over to a dictator. (Please, no jokes about GWB)

 

[Kraj]

I can't believe that my comment back at post16 has created such an amount of ire and hot air. It was not even an anti American statement, regular readers of the Watercooler will know that I am not anti American, but it was anti Jhotair, Kraj got close to understanding what I was about in his first post on the subject when talking of hyperbole and ostentation, me , I just call it arrogance.

Brian

I am also quite aware you're not anti-American. In fact, you're one of the only UKers I'm aware of who actively argues against (unwarranted) anti-American posts. Yes, it's quite a thin line between hyperbole and arrogance, but the former applies to the content of a person's message and the latter tends to be applied more to a person, so I tend to tread carefully with that word. Nevertheless, this nation could certainly use a lesson in humility.

 

[Rich]

What you guys completely fail to understand is they WANT to be that way. There is no need to help them. They want to get a hand out from Uncle Sam, take their food stamps to the local store and buy a 6 pack.

How do you know this, simply because 2thirds have made it doesn't mean the other third are lazy, what opportunities do they have, lets look at Texas, it's cheaper to send blacks to prison than school so that's what you do, equal opportunity for all, no I don't think so

the United States is more closely comparable to the continent of Europe/EU than an individual country.

No it isn't the US is made up of states as ONE country, the UK, which is where we post from, is made up of Four countries. They all make some of their own laws which aren't applicable in others, but the government of the UK take control of education and make sure that all are treated fairly.
As for the size comparison the UK is the most overcrowded island on the planet with very few natural resources, the US on the other hand has masses of room and a myriad of natural resources.
It would follow therefore by Joeys arguments that the UK should have far more social problems than the US, it doesn't, some yes, but not enough to have to keep a gun under the pillow.
As for the cultural diffences of nations the UK has the most diverse cultural population on the planet

What it does say is that we have the freedom to pursue the "American dream" as you call it. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is what the constitution says. Happiness is not guaranteed for every citizen, but we all have the same freedom to pursue it.

But every free and democratic country on the planet has that right, why was it necessary to put that in the constitution in the States?

 

[MrsGorilla]

How do you know this, simply because 2thirds have made it doesn't mean the other third are lazy, what opportunities do they have, lets look at Texas, it's cheaper to send blacks to prison than school so that's what you do, equal opportunity for all, no I don't think so

Who says it's cheaper? It actually costs quite a bit to clothe, house, and feed inmates for long periods of time than it would be to send them to school. Not to mention medical costs of inmates and all other costs I'm not thinking of. Blacks have the same opportunity to go to college as every other citizen in this country. More opportunity in some cases as there are many scholorships available for blacks only that aren't available to others. If blacks are in prison, then it is because they have broken the law, been caught and arrested, and tried and found guilty by a jury. Race has nothing to do with it, there are whites in prison as well. I'm not terribly sympathetic to those who say they didn't have the "opportunity" to attend college when I worked for 14 years and paid my own way through and did it. It wasn't easy for me either but life's all about choices. Yes, it's harder for some people and easier for others but that's the way it is. It isn't impossible for anyone.

It would follow therefore by Joeys arguments that the UK should have far more social problems than the US, it doesn't, some yes, but not enough to have to keep a gun under the pillow.

We don't have to keep guns under our pillows here either, but we do have the right to own guns. This has been thrashed to death.

But every free and democratic country on the planet has that right, why was it necessary to put that in the constitution in the States?

Because that is what we stand for and our forefathers wanted to ensure that future generations were guaranteed the same rights. I was really making a point about Col stating that our constitution said that America was supposed to be the land of milk and honey for everyone. That is in itself ridiculous. The right to search for happiness is what is guaranteed.

 

[FoFa]

But every free and democratic country on the planet has that right, why was it necessary to put that in the constitution in the States?

Because they all (well most anyway) came from Europe at the time and figured if it was not in writing, America would end up like another Europe and they didn't want that.

 

[Rich]

Who says it's cheaper? It actually costs quite a bit to clothe, house, and feed inmates for long periods of time than it would be to send them to school. Not to mention medical costs of inmates and all other costs I'm not thinking of. Blacks have the same opportunity to go to college as every other citizen in this country. More opportunity in some cases as there are many scholorships available for blacks only that aren't available to others. If blacks are in prison, then it is because they have broken the law, been caught and arrested, and tried and found guilty by a jury. Race has nothing to do with it, there are whites in prison as well. I'm not terribly sympathetic to those who say they didn't have the "opportunity" to attend college when I worked for 14 years and paid my own way through and did it. It wasn't easy for me either but life's all about choices. Yes, it's harder for some people and easier for others but that's the way it is. It isn't impossible for anyone.

If that's the case and every one is equal when do you think southern states will agree to the election of a Black president, or even a woman? As for whites also being held then why are the majority of those held in prisons in Texas Black? When was the last white man executed for murdering a black man? If there are more blacks in prison in Texas than in school then there must be something fundamentally flawed in the system surely? What's being done to break the cycle, other than to say it's their own fault, they're uneducable?

We don't have to keep guns under our pillows here either, but we do have the right to own guns.

but that's what we can't understand, when someone's gunned down or kids are massacred by nutters with guns you simply dismiss it as it not being your fault but that of the individual and your constitution guarantees the right to own a gun, but you're not that bothered about the right to life, except in the case of abortion. Is the right to life not guaranteed in the constitution. ?
I don't mean you personally by the way, but you as a nation

The right to search for happiness is what is guaranteed.

Does that include a guarantee of a happy marriage?

 

[Rich]

Because they all (well most anyway) came from Europe at the time and figured if it was not in writing, America would end up like another Europe and they didn't want that.

God, not again Joey? I might remind you that a large part of your country came from Africa and had no say in your constitution, any chance they'll get asked if they want to make one or two changes?

 

[MrsGorilla]

Because they all (well most anyway) came from Europe at the time and figured if it was not in writing, America would end up like another Europe and they didn't want that.

God, not again Joey? I might remind you that a large part of your country came from Africa and had no say in your constitution, any chance they'll get asked if they want to make one or two changes?

Joey?

 

[Kraj]

No it isn't the US is made up of states as ONE country, the UK, which is where we post from, is made up of Four countries.

I said Europe or European Union, not the UK. Nevertheless, this is an obvious difference, yes.

They all make some of their own laws which aren't applicable in others,

With all your bashing on American education, you'd think that after the 20th time this has been explained to you you'd get it: Each state that comprises the United States is sovereign and makes its own laws. What you just described is the exact same role the federal government takes in the U.S.

As for the size comparison the UK is the most overcrowded island on the planet

Island nations with a higher population density than the United Kingdom:
Singapore
Malta
Maldives
Bahrain
Barbados
Mauritius
Tuvalu
Japan (they also have twice the population of the UK)
Marshall Islands
Comoros
Sri Lanka
Phillipines
Haiti
Saint Lucia
Grenada
Jamaica

It would follow therefore by Joeys arguments that the UK should have far more social problems than the US, it doesn't,

Where, exactly, did anyone assert that population density and availability of natural resources determines social problems?

some yes, but not enough to have to keep a gun under the pillow.

Again, I find it amazing that you choose to believe Hollywood over real-life experiences. A very small number of American posters have stated they own a gun, and to the best of my knowledge not one of them keep it for protection purposes. Why do you refuse to give up your illusion that the entirety of America is populated by cowboys? I can understand you ignoring me, Ken, FoFa, jsanders, cheuschober... we're all a bunch of arrogant ignoramuses. But Cindy? You won't even listen to her?

As for the cultural diffences of nations the UK has the most diverse cultural population on the planet

This is the exact same kind of sweeping generalization and hyperbole that you claim Americans are guilty of. Not to mention that it is an absurd claim since it is extraordinarily difficult to measure cultural diversity.

But every free and democratic country on the planet has that right, why was it necessary to put that in the constitution in the States?

Ask George III.

 

[Rich]

Joey?

Just a collective name or the lager

 

[FoFa]

If that's the case and every one is equal when do you think southern states will agree to the election of a Black president, or even a woman?

Humm, I have not seen a primary where the split was along the Mason-Dixon line. So just for total utter curiosity,, what are you basing that on?

 

[MrsGorilla]

If that's the case and every one is equal when do you think southern states will agree to the election of a Black president, or even a woman? As for whites also being held then why are the majority of those held in prisons in Texas Black? When was the last white man executed for murdering a black man? If there are more blacks in prison in Texas than in school then there must be something fundamentally flawed in the system surely? What's being done to break the cycle, other than to say it's their own fault, they're uneducable?

I don't know the answers to all of those questions and I'm not saying that more can't be done to reach out to those who are disadvantaged, I'm just saying that if someone makes the choice to do something with their life then they can. Making the decision is half the battle. Well, not quite half maybe.

but that's what we can't understand, when someone's gunned down or kids are massacred by nutters with guns you simply dismiss it as it not being your fault but that of the individual and your constitution guarantees the right to own a gun, but you're not that bothered about the right to life, except in the case of abortion. Is the right to life not guaranteed in the constitution. ?
I don't mean you personally by the way, but you as a nation

Yes, the right to life is guaranteed in the constitution. It's not a perfect system but a lot has been done in recent years to try to keep criminals and other "nutters" from buying guns. As I've said before, I'm unconvinced that a gun ban would do anything except keep guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens. The criminals certainly aren't going to turn theirs in.

Does that include a guarantee of a happy marriage?

Judging by the divorce rate, apparently not. Although maybe that's just part of the "search for happiness".

 

[MrsGorilla]

Just a collective name or the lager

I'd wager on the latter.

 

[Rich]

I said Europe or European Union, not the UK. Nevertheless, this is an obvious difference, yes.


With all your bashing on American education, you'd think that after the 20th time this has been explained to you you'd get it: Each state that comprises the United States is sovereign and makes its own laws. What you just described is the exact same role the federal government takes in the U.S.

.

Then your government isn't doing it's job, is it?

Island nations with a higher population density than the United Kingdom:
Singapore
Malta
Maldives
Bahrain
Barbados
Mauritius
Tuvalu
Japan
Marshall Islands
Comoros
Sri Lanka
Phillipines
Haiti
Saint Lucia
Grenada
Jamaica

I should have said Countries and one the most

Where, exactly, did jsanders assert that population density and availability of natural resources determines social problems?

I didn't say he did

It’s easy to condemn us from your place on a small mostly monogenetic island. We are spread out over a huge geographical area. And what ya’ll continue to misunderstand is; we are a nation of states.

We do not have a central culture.

Again, I find it amazing that you choose to believe Hollywood over real-life experiences. A very small number of American posters have stated they own a gun, and to the best of my knowledge not one of them keep it for protection purposes. Why do you refuse to give up your illusion that the entirety of America is populated by cowboys?

Statistics

This is the exact same kind of sweeping generalization and hyperbole that you claim Americans are guilty of.

just fighting fire with fire



Oddly enough it was an American who made the claim here first, I doubt he's read thishttp://www.ncrel.org/sdrs/areas/issues/educatrs/leadrshp/le0bow.htm

Ask George III.

' can't, he's dead

 

[Rich]

Humm, I have not seen a primary where the split was along the Mason-Dixon line. So just for total utter curiosity,, what are you basing that on?

Impression gained from interviews given by American liberals, are there any figures available to change that opinion?

 

[Rich]

I don't know the answers to all of those questions and I'm not saying that more can't be done to reach out to those who are disadvantaged, I'm just saying that if someone makes the choice to do something with their life then they can. Making the decision is half the battle. Well, not quite half maybe.

I agree there's no easy answer, I just wonder if more couldn't be done especially by central government

Yes, the right to life is guaranteed in the constitution. It's not a perfect system but a lot has been done in recent years to try to keep criminals and other "nutters" from buying guns. As I've said before, I'm unconvinced that a gun ban would do anything except keep guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens. The criminals certainly aren't going to turn theirs in.

But it would surely make the job of law enforcement easier if the number of guns in circulation was drastically reduced

Although maybe that's just part of the "search for happiness".

You're lucky if you can find and keep it for any length of time

 

[Kraj]

Then your government isn't doing it's job, is it?

What do you mean?

I should have said Countries and one the most

Is there a difference between countries and nations I'm unware of? Each entrant in the list is an independant nation.

I didn't say he did

Then what arguments were you referring to? You said, "it would follow by Joeys arguments" that the UK should have more social problems than the U.S. because there is greater population density and less natural resources. So what are you referring to?

Statistics

Care to provide any?

just fighting fire with fire

That's a nice way of describing hypocrisy.

' can't, he's dead

Well, then try reading the Declaration of Independence. It describes quite nicely all the reasons why colonial Americans were not free to pursue happiness under his "democratic" rule.

But it would surely make the job of law enforcement easier if the number of guns in circulation was drastically reduced

I agree. But the vast majority of criminals obtain their guns illegally, so removing the legal right to own a gun won't help much. What we need are tougher penalties for criminals who use guns (although considering the overcrowded prison system, it's not much of a solution) but most importantly we need to stop illegal gun trafficing. And that's a huge challenge.

 

[Rich]

What do you mean?

.

Well if freedom and justice for all is written into the constitution then isn't it your governments job to enforce it?

Is there a difference between countries and nations I'm unware of? Each entrant in the list is an independant nation.

I corrected the previous post by adding "one of the", I guess you missed it

Then what arguments were you referring to? You said, "it would follow by Joeys arguments" that the UK should have more social problems than the U.S. because there is greater population density and less natural resources. So what are you referring to?

jj said that the US doesn't have a central culture, neither do we, both have central government though.

It’s easy to condemn us from your place on a small mostly monogenetic island. We are spread out over a huge geographical area.

OK so let's look at it from another angle, so is Canada, what point was jj trying to make?

Care to provide any?

FACT: Comparison of U.S. gun homicides to other industrialized countries:
In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns murdered:


373 people in Germany
151 people in Canada
57 people in Australia
19 people in Japan
54 people in England and Wales, and
11,789 people in the United States
(*Please note that these 1998 numbers account only for HOMICIDES, and do not include suicides, which comprise and even greater number of gun deaths, or unintentional shootings).

That's a nice way of describing hypocrisy.

Why is the phrase when in Rome do as the Romans still ringing in my ears?

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences

What sheer hypocrisy, your current government doesn't even give suspects the benefit of a trial

What we need are tougher penalties for criminals who use guns

But you already have some of the toughest penalties for gun crime and it isn't working, the only thing that will change it is a change in attitude toward gun ownership and their use

 

[pono1]

...can anyone explain to me the shape of the State of Colorado? Or more precisely how it came to be a great big square

I am relatively certain that an early American explorer and map-maker (named Rhombus) who was fond of square dancing and in love with an Indian squaw named Parallelogram-hantas originally surveyed the area.

Regards,
Tim