Attack on Israel

[The_Doc_Man]

@Edgar_ - I will not continue this argument because it is clear that we have a basic failure to communicate. I don't like the way Israel treats the people of Gaza but I understand it because of the repeated attacks on Israel. This is a basic impasse situation where neither side is willing to stand down. I think you would have to agree that, absent BOTH sides willingness to step away from the battle and head for a negotiating table, there can be no end to this fighting.

If Israel wants security for its people and Gaza wants improved treatment for its people then the impediments to those goals have to be removed, and the impediments are spelled "Hamas." Do you at least agree that both of those goals are reasonable? And do you see that with Hamas still in the picture, the "security for Israel" is going to be difficult verging on impossible to manage?

 

[Steve R.]

All for supporting life and peace, repugning war and frowning upon asymmetric attacks.

Based on the quote above you should be condemning Hamas for attacking helpless villagers and music participants on a Jewish holiday.
Unbelievably, you don't condemn Hamas for this atrocity, instead in the quote below you assert that Israeli is somehow guilty of genocide for defending itself. As I have previously posited and you neglected to answer: "Who is going to punish Hamas?"
That is colossal application of relative moralism. (One side can commit brutal atrocities with impunity, but the other side has no right to defend itself and must also be condemned through a massive propaganda campaign.)

You don't know, nobody knows how many people have died on P. But by the evidence, clearly, it's a genocide or a much higher scale, coming from a country that encouraged the "first" (between quotes) attack.

That is a lie. Israel never encouraged the "first" attack. The Islamic states were primary instigators in their attempt to commit genocide of the Jews.

The Arab-Israeli War of 1948 broke out when five Arab nations invaded the territory in the former Palestinian mandate immediately following the announcement of the independence of the state of Israel on May 14, 1948. In 1947, and again on May 14, 1948, the United States had offered de facto recognition of the Israeli Provisional Government, but during the war, the United States maintained an arms embargo against all belligerents.

 

[Edgar_]

Steve, you are making this way too easy for me.

That is a lie. Israel never encouraged the "first" attack. The Islamic states were primary instigators in their attempt to commit genocide of the Jews.

The Arab-Israeli War of 1948 broke out when five Arab nations invaded the territory in the former Palestinian mandate immediately following the announcement of the independence of the state of Israel on May 14, 1948. In 1947, and again on May 14, 1948, the United States had offered de facto recognition of the Israeli Provisional Government, but during the war, the United States maintained an arms embargo against all belligerents.

If I use just your article as juice, go read it again, Palestinians were never asked about jack s**t on what their fate should be. The western expected them to just accept stuff. As if they were animals or something. In that same article, I see no regard for specifying "Palestinian people", instead, it is a "Palestinian issue". That should raise some eyebrows, it does for me anyway, because I view all humans equally.

 

[Edgar_]

You took Doc's quote out of context, he was responding to my IF statement about babies being beheaded, note I said if.

Uh, he basically said the news about the babies were probably right because a lot of articles were talking about it. I basically replied that it was most likely propaganda, considering the war times and implications. Your If statement, along with Doc's agreement caused my reply as a heads up, which ended up being accurate. I'm not predicting the future, it's just something that has been happening for quite a while.

So, if neither Doc or Jon, or Steve or you are learning anything from my posts, I'm condemned to remind you of my accuracy in this particular post.

 

[AccessBlaster]

Uh, he basically said the news about the babies were probably right because a lot of articles were talking about it. I basically replied that it was most likely propaganda, considering the war times and implications. Your If statement, along with Doc's agreement caused my reply as a heads up, which ended up being accurate. I'm not predicting the future, it's just something that has been happening for quite a while.

So, if neither Doc or Jon, or Steve or you are learning anything from my posts, I'm condemned to remind you of my accuracy in this particular post.

I'm only onboard with Israel with this particular event. Both side have done shady things in the past, but this recent attack seems unjustifiable at the moment.

I do distinguish between Hamas and Palestinian children.

 

[Steve R.]

Palestinians were never asked about jack s**t on what their fate should be.

Playing word games. The Palestinians are a subset of the Arab nations that attacked Israel. Furthermore, the Palestinians have continued the genocide that the Arab nations failed to achieve. The Palestinians for 75 years have continued their crusade of antisemitism. You assert to want peace, yet you appear to support those who justify never-ending war based on a religious fanaticism of antisemitism.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

By the way, Doc, why did you choose the derogatory term "dogs" for this?

It's a common Southern colloquialism to say "I don't have a dog in this hunt." Had I used "horse" instead of "dog" would you have felt better? Then, though it was stated innocently, I will apologize for the accidental implication and will edit the message.

 

[Jon]

Based on this alone, you're confirming you only look at a consequence (singular), and disregard the causes (plural).

This is a classic example of jumping to conclusions, since you don't know what I look at. In fact, your comment is rather ironic because you say, "based on this alone" (i.e. ignore all the other evidence), yet you accuse others of only looking at one thing. Apart from hypocrisy, this is a further example of your lack of consideration of evidence.

Is baseless.

Yes, it is baseless, if you ignore all the evidence. As I said, you don't care about the evidence, only your ideology.

You're now associating the term "Nazi" with me, and you previously associated me with the following:

The Nazi's made up all sorts of reasons to justify attacking the Jews. You appear to be doing the same. I am not saying you are a Nazi, just that some of your views are similar to the Nazi's. In fact nowadays, you are more likely to be far left of the political spectrum if you support Palestine's posture.

All for supporting life and peace, repugning war and frowning upon asymmetric attacks.

If you are against asymmetric attacks, what if someone is about to nuke you. Would you nuke first as a pre-emptive strike? If yours lands first, that is asymmetric. Millions dead on the opposing side, none on yours.

All of this after ignoring I have previously stated several different causes for the most recent attack from P towards Israel.

Justifying attacks against the Jewish civilians, just like the Brownshirts in 1940's Germany. If you say the cause was Israeli occupation, you legitimise the killing of citizens in Israel. Your views align with Hamas, it appears, since you seem to support their doctrine of attacking all Jews, including civilians.

On Israel, 1k+ died, which then resulted in how many deaths on P?

And who caused those deaths when Hamas start it? They know what the Israelis will do in response, yet they chose to attack them. And since when has there been a rule during war that you have to balance the number of deaths? I think you want to send some cannon fodder if you overstep your asymmetric allowance. When the rockets keep coming from Palestine, do you have to wait for rmore Israelis to die before you strike back to maintain the quotas? This is your logic.

coming from a country that encouraged the "first" (between quotes) attack.

So Israel encouraged the slaughter of civilians from multiple countries and the capture of the elderly, disabled, babies. Since when have these people encouraged an attack on themselves? Do you believe babies encouraged an attack on themselves? They are not collateral damage that happens in all wars. Instead, they were deliberately murdered and taken as hostages.

I show you the knife with blood, the meat of the cow, the video of the butcher, the slaughterhouse, the mother of the cow living in the same slaughterhouse, the cook, the guy eating the meat and you still tell me carnivores don't exist. It's pointless.

What you fail to mention is that the Palestinians are the slaughterhouse and have forced the Israelis to start eating meat. You also fail to mention that you will ignore all evidence that paints the Palestinians in a bad light, such as starting yet another war, 25K rockets sent to Israel, targeting civilians, and the hospital atrocity.

 

[Pat Hartman]

I think you would have to agree that, absent BOTH sides willingness to step away from the battle and head for a negotiating table, there can be no end to this fighting.

Israel has taken multiple steps away. After every attack so far, (I've lost count - 7 actual wars and 8+ massive attacks over the course of the past 75 years), Israel has stepped away and tried for peace. The Palestinians WILL NOT STOP until they have killed every Jew and Israel is no more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In 1948, the British left them with a 2-state solution. They insisted that there was no room at the inn for the Jews. It was going to be all or nothing. That is their position and they're sticking to it!!!! They are egged on by the Arab neighbors of Israel who flatly refuse to take in any Palestinian refugees from Gaza. Ask yourself why?????? The countries that hold the 58+ refugee camps and refuse to allow the displaced Palestinians to assimilate contribute to the continuing problem.

You keep referring to a map. We're 200+ posts into this thread. I'm not going to try to figure out which one you are referring to since there have been several. If it is the one where the Palestinians lose territory over time - SO WHAT. Every time they lose a war, they lose territory when Israel wins. DUH!! And yet they keep doing the same thing over and over and over and over again.

 

[AccessBlaster]

Hamas training videos, posted months ago, foreshadowed assault on Israel​

In another video, from May, body camera footage shows combatants moving through rooms shooting at targets. Another, from December, shows Hamas fighters storming a makeshift town and taking hostages dressed as Israeli soldiers. On the walls of the mock compound, the words "we will free all our prisoners" are scrawled in Arabic and Hebrew.

The sleek, high-definition videos, complete with drone shots, appear almost interchangeable with the real-world videos of the carnage Hamas fighters unleashed on southern Israel on Oct. 7, after they breached the militarized borders of the besieged Gaza Strip with tools, construction equipment and even paragliders. They ambushed soldiers at checkpoints and murdered civilians in farming communities, or kibbutzim, taking more than 100 others hostage.

The mere existence of these Hamas propaganda videos, some of which have been online for several months, will fuel increasingly urgent questions over how, despite the Jewish state's U.S.-backed, world-class intelligence agencies, Hamas, in the words of an Israeli military spokesperson, "surprised us."

It is hard to imagine that Israel's intelligence services, which have spent years infiltrating the terror groups in the region, were unaware of the videos, photos and news coverage about the training maneuvres. The French news agency AFP published photos of Hamas exercises in September, and Israeli media covered them extensively.

Apparently not a surprise

CBS article here

 

[Edgar_]

Apparently not a surprise

Another accurate prediction. A very sad one, I must say. I'm not surprised about this not being a surprise. I have been writing in this thread about that since my second intervention, posts 44, 107 and there might be others where I mention it is HARD TO BELIEVE Israel didn't know about this attack.

I'm waiting for your verdict...
@Jon
@Pat Hartman
@Steve R.
And others

So, in spite of your disqualifications and words colored in red, name calling and all, my advice to you all, if you're in denial about Israel having quite a lot of fingers pointing at them, is stop waiting for news and look at the data. You're all data analysts, after all, you should do that much before trying to associate pacifists to Nazis.

This is spooky, I also predicted ethnical cleansing, I hope this comes to a stop soon

Don't ask me how, that I don't know, but it's tough to expect good news with the way the current economic system is headed. Let's wait and see how the Chinese-Russian trading partnership works out, as they're shifting away from using the US dollar and focusing on trading with other countries using local currencies. This change might make things a bit better.

 

[Edgar_]

After reading the article, I have another suspicion. Is it possible that Hamas has some intimate connections with Israel? Are the people on P well-informed enough to resist false promises made by Hamas, given that similar situations have occurred in other countries?

It's intriguing that the people on P would vote for a group whose actions might lead to their own detriment.

Before jumping to conclusions, let's engage in a thoughtful discussion. I've presented arguments here and have made accurate predictions in the past posts. Please consider your positions carefully, and we can wait for more evidence to confirm or refute these suspicions. That, of course, is only if you wish to consider it.

 

[Edgar_]

Israel has taken multiple steps away. After every attack so far, (I've lost count - 7 actual wars and 8+ massive attacks over the course of the past 75 years), Israel has stepped away and tried for peace. The Palestinians WILL NOT STOP until they have killed every Jew and Israel is no more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In 1948, the British left them with a 2-state solution. They insisted that there was no room at the inn for the Jews. It was going to be all or nothing. That is their position and they're sticking to it!!!! They are egged on by the Arab neighbors of Israel who flatly refuse to take in any Palestinian refugees from Gaza. Ask yourself why?????? The countries that hold the 58+ refugee camps and refuse to allow the displaced Palestinians to assimilate contribute to the continuing problem.

You keep referring to a map. We're 200+ posts into this thread. I'm not going to try to figure out which one you are referring to since there have been several. If it is the one where the Palestinians lose territory over time - SO WHAT. Every time they lose a war, they lose territory when Israel wins. DUH!! And yet they keep doing the same thing over and over and over and over again.

I have posted a new suspicion, could it be that Hamas is related to Israel? I mean, think about it, using religion as excuse, they keep engaging in un-winnable wars where Israel kept gaining territory. As if they were some decerebrates. I know, I know, Pat, you think it's because they want their virgins, but I invite you to reconsider.

By the way, I have posted two maps. One to refer to the territory Israel has gained since its arrival and another map to show this conflict is but one of several conflicts in the same region.

Multiple pieces are moving in that area, that could shed some lights on why neighboring countries are hesitant to accept refugees. Those in positions of power are not watching this lousy thread to make their decisions, they're looking at the entire picture, taking into account factors you might not currently consider. Remember they're in front of entire countries, so don't expect them to make decisions based on what you think they should do.

@Jon Idem

 

[Pat Hartman]

Knowing there would be another attack against UNARMED Israeli citizens is like knowing the sun will rise tomorrow.

The red was because you don't seem to understand these points which are what will always prevent peace no matter how many times Israel comes to the table because Israel is always alone.

I also predicted ethnical cleansing,

Ethnic cleansing is what the Muslims and Nazis do to the Christians and Jews. It is not what Israel does to Hamas and Hezbollah. The ethnicity of Hamas members is irrelevant. Are you a Muslim? You could certainty be considered a member or at least supporter of Hamas.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

The fact that I reply at all indicates that I can try for a dialog. Whether it can ever be meaningful is a different question. I will be as clear as I can without being brutal or insulting.

We have presented arguments and logic suggesting that regardless of any lead-in causes, when Hamas performed the most recent attack earlier this month, they inflicted a sizable number of casualties and offered a major threat to the apparent security of the Israeli homeland. It DOES NOT MATTER whether we agree that the current nation of Israel should be considered the Israeli homeland. It matters that you understand that THE ISRAELI PEOPLE think of it as their homeland. To be honest, neither your opinion nor mine make a drop of difference in what they think.

With respect to the Jewish people, 80 years ago they saw the result of systemic hatred as it terrorized and destroyed literally MILLIONS of their people. Then, it was the Nazi regime. Now the hatred and attacks come from an Islamic regime. I do not accuse Islam of being like the Nazis in any way EXCEPT that they both hated and attacked Jews. Do you HONESTLY think that the distinction of who is shooting makes a difference to those who are facing yet another threat to their safety - in a land THEY believe to be their home?

The next step in this chain is that if you are attacked on what you believe to be your homeland, and the attackers have publicly avowed that they want you dead, your choices are to (1) flee someplace else, (2) surrender (and probably die, given the Hamas stance on Israel), or (3) defend yourself to the level necessary to assure the security of your people. In the past, Israel has shown NO inclination for options 1 or 2 and I can't blame them for choosing option 3. But each time such a threat arose in the past, they also ceased firing when the immediate threat was neutralized. Do you have any reason to believe this time to be different? You say you are good at making predictions. Care to offer one regarding when (and under what conditions) a cease fire might occur?

@Edgar_ - This is as respectful a response as I can give you. Unless you happen to be a United Nations official, you and I are sideline spectators. Our opinions won't affect the conflict. Neither of us is that powerful or that important. So open your mind to the questions I ask in light of the fact that from a practical sense, our opinions are spectator opinions with no particular monetary or strategic value. We are fans cheering from the sidelines, not matter how strongly we feel about our side. So in that perspective, do you have any comments you care to make?

 

[Edgar_]

I have the moral authority to tell you, Pat, that I condemn the attack perpetrated by Hamas on innocent Israeli citizens and I condemn the retaliation even more, because of a series of circumstances that I have posted about. I'm disappointed that you fail to see that I have considered your points about religion and evilness as the reasons for this conflict, and you have not considered even a little bit of what I have stated multiple times, using hard data, that those may very likely not be the actual reasons.

It does not matter how much you increase the font of your post, or how red you want to make it look, I don't view this conflict from an isolated single-factor stand point, you appear to be blinded by a supremacist belief which is just plain wrong by today's standards.

 

[Pat Hartman]

I have the moral authority to tell you, Pat, that I condemn the attack perpetrated by Hamas on innocent Israeli citizens and I condemn the retaliation even more, because of a series of circumstances that I have posted about. I'm disappointed that you fail to see that I have considered your points about religion and evilness as the reasons for this conflict, and you have not considered even a little bit of what I have stated multiple times, using hard data, that those may very likely not be the actual reasons.

I'm not sure why you think your position is moral but mine is not. Personally, I think war is ugly and people should stop immediately. They aren't going to do that, are they, no matter what I say? That leaves us with reality and the reality is - Hamas insists that the only good Jew is a dead Jew which is exactly the position of the Nazis. Can we agree on that "hard data" or do you not believe that Hamas means what it wrote in its charter? The charter for Hamas insists on killing all the Jews and removing them from Israel. The Jews have no such charter. The Jews are willing to come to the table and have come to the table, no fewer than 15 times in the past 75 years. But alas, no lasting agreement can ever be reached when the Muslim position starts with - the Jews don't get to live here. Only WE get to live here and we are going to kill all the Jews. You see, that is where you lose me (and the others) Edgar. That position is totally immoral and you are arguing that it is moral.

Plus, you keep conveniently forgetting that in 1948 there was a two-state solution and it was the Palestinians who refused that deal. They were not willing to share. They wanted the whole pie and the Jews should have no part of it at all. This is all history. I don't know why you cannot acknowledge that the Jews didn't break the original two-state solution deal. The Muslims did and they have been breaking every peace agreement signed for the past 75 years.

So, I guess our view of what is moral is quite different. I believe it is moral to fight for your own life and the lives of your family and countrymen. I do not believe it is moral to murder and ra** and take unarmed civilians prisoner. Your counter to this is - but Israel bombed a hospital - no they didn't. Hamas or one of the other terrorist cells bombed the hospital. What we don't know is whether they did it on purpose to try to put the blame on Israel or if it was an accident. Israel bombs apartment buildings - yes they do but only after telling the residents to evacuate. And you know what Hamas does - it tells the residents to stay put. Why? Is that moral to force them to remain in the line of fire? Did the criminals of Hamas give any of the unarmed civilians "fair warning" before the heinous attack on Oct 7th?

The "hard data is" - there was a two-state solution in 1948. Every time the Muslims tried to take Israel's part away from the Jews, the Jews won the war and ended up taking more of the Palestinian's share from them. Wars have consequences. Winners get to keep the territory that they won during the fight. The losers don't. Otherwise, the Germans would be controlling all of Europe by now. Wonder how the French and others would feel about your position that the losers get to pick the territory they want to keep

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I have the moral authority to tell you, Pat, that I condemn the attack perpetrated by Hamas on innocent Israeli citizens and I condemn the retaliation even more, because of a series of circumstances that I have posted about.

You instantly voided your moral authority when you condemned retaliation because it was NOT retaliation. It was an action to DEFEND the Israeli people from a CONTINUING attack - and based on various news articles I have been following, that attack continues to this day.

You HAVE no moral authority to say Israel cannot defend itself against lethal attacks. And we have the moral authority to remind you of words that exist in ALL modern and many ancient religions. The modern form of these words is "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." There are older versions, but the "hip" version is "What goes around comes around." Well, Hamas did unto others and now you are bothered that Israel is doing unto them. Oh, BOO HOO.

I suspect you must be from an Islamic family and thus have been indoctrinated against Israel from youth. It would explain your inability to see that there IS another side to this story. That inability will prevent this discussion from getting anywhere.

 

[Edgar_]

they also ceased firing when the immediate threat was neutralized. Do you have any reason to believe this time to be different? You say you are good at making predictions. Care to offer one regarding when (and under what conditions) a cease fire might occur?

I do not think a cease fire equals a cease violence. Previously in this thread, I posted a tutorial on how to get news from before the 10/7 conflict, the headlines seem to indicate Israel was deliberately limiting the supply of basic services to Palestinian citizens, pretty sure that's not the only form of violence the Palestinians had to face. The conflict will continue until Palestine benefits from an economic change because, I insist, it's an economic problem, not a religion problem.

I think war is ugly and people should stop immediately

I'm glad you've changed to that from

I say turn Gaza to glass

And

roll over and wait to be killed

We may not make a difference with this thread, but we can vote against pro-war candidates and help others understand they should too.

As for your point about Israel wanting peace since 1948, did the Palestinians agree to have Israel next to them in the first place, wasn't that an imposition of their "colonizer"? Because you only talk about the supremacist view that if you win a war you keep the territory, but that, in detriment to your argument about religions being causes for the conflict, points more to economic reasons rather than religious reasons. So, if Palestine has not agreed to anything, it most likely is because of economic reasons too.

Now the hospital bombing, ahhh, speed reading huh? or maybe not reading at all? I posted this several posts ago:

You see, there was this fake news about beheaded babies, then there was that other about the footage of a hospital bombing, both propaganda, from both sides,

Contrary to you, I'm not affected by propaganda. Even if all Arab nations are enraged about the hospital bombing, I remained skeptic. And you still think I'm an Arab or something, WTH?

I already told you I'm humanist, I like peace.

If Hamas is telling their countrymen to stay put, I'm skeptic that they're on the side of their people, considering previous posts that I don't want to repeat, you can read them, they are up there ↑↑↑↑ why would they side with Israeli? economic reasons again, why not? I'll wait for more info about this.

I suspect you must be from an Islamic family and thus have been indoctrinated against Israel from youth. It would explain your inability to see that there IS another side to this story. That inability will prevent this discussion from getting anywhere.

The only thing preventing the discussion getting anywhere is the collective idea from my detractors that economic reasons are somehow out of the question and the only thing that matters is some text written on a charter by Hamas. And look, I'm questioning Hamas' legitimate constitution. And you should know by now that I'm not convinced by your simplistic views on the conflict, which, so far, boils down to:

Hamas attacked Israel, therefore Palestine should die.
Religion confirms Palestine should die because Hamas says Israel must not exist in some charter.
Since Hamas was elected by the (very well informed) population of Palestine, Israel must not attack Hamas only, but the entire Palestine.
Look, Hamas hides stuff inside Palestinian houses, therefore Palestine dies, nothing else matters, not even if Palestinians had a home where Israel now (somehow) thinks the attack should be directed.
Oh look, Israel is such a pigeon of peace, look, they will tell (the media that they notify) Palestinians, so any casualties are people who didn't get the memo somehow, that doesn't matter either, as well as how Israel knows there is armament in civilian houses, Palestine must die anyway.

That's your argument to justify defensive attacks filled with peaceful bloody deaths, by the thousands. And not a single mention of the economic system. Go figure the type of debaters I have here.

 

[ebs17]

One of the serious problems is that Hamas has not only taken hostages in Israel, but they have taken their own Palestinian people hostage. They use their own civilian populations as human shields.
Rockets against Israel are fired from residential areas and houses, people are driven onto the roofs of these houses so that the Israeli plane pilot does not drop a bomb in retaliation.
Hamas has taken into account and desired a high number of victims among its own population because this war cannot be won by Hamas militarily, but rather this war affects the world through images and media. What are 1,400 dead Israelis in two days when there are 50 dead Palestinians every day for maybe 4 months? What will newspapers and TV channels report on?

@Edgar_
What would be your reaction if someone came into your home and murdered your parents and took your children hostage because they were your family?
Because this someone has a family of their own and hides behind them, do you say it's peace and all is well?
So that someone can continue their work later?