Attack on Israel

If I'm reading that latest polling correctly - yes, Just over half the population supports Hamas to lead them.
I don't think Palestine should be turned to glass when almost half of the population do not wish Hamas to lead and represent them.

Just my opinion.

I'm a big fan of Peace.
 
I am also a big fan of peace. But let me challenge what you said for now.

If they do not support Hamas, it does not mean that they want peace. There are other terrorist groups in Palestine that receive significant support, such as Palestine Islamic Jihad and Lion's Den. So when the majority support Hamas, it does not mean that all the remainder do not support terrorism.

This source suggests that very recently 58% support a return to armed resistance. Or in other words, they want war. https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/951

It will be interesting to see what a new poll would say after a few weeks. Will support for terrorism go up or down?
 
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I'm a big fan of Peace.
  • The obvious question: How is peace established?
  • Hamas has stated that its goal is genocide of the Jews. That implies that the Jews have to fight back just to survive.
  • The UN is supposed to be an international organization promoting peace, yet it is virulently anti-Jewish. (The UN has shown itself to be impotent regarding peace in the Ukraine.)
  • Hamas controls the Palestinian "state", so how do those opposing Hamas terrorism stop Hamas?
  • Where are the Palestinian peaceniks rioting in the streets to stop Hamas? (Unbelievabley there are Jewish peaceniks trying to prevent Isael from defending itself.)
  • How many Islamic states have called for Hamas to cease and desist? (You can't demand that only one side stand-down (Israel) in the name of peace. Both sides have to cooperate.)
 
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SAVAGE'S EERIE PREDICTION ABOUT ISRAEL AND HAMAS

Above is one of Michael Savage's better podcasts. Contains a tremendous amount of historical context. The podcast is 50 minutes long.

A couple to takeaways from this podcast.
  • The "left" falsely claims that Israel is an apartheid state. A lie. It has been the Jews (Christians too) in Islamic countries who have been the victims of pogroms (apartheid). The Islamic states in the Middle East are rigged non-compromising theocracies. They are not interested in promoting diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) for non-believers.
  • The humanitarian aid that the Palestinians received from the UN, the US, and other humanitarian organization has been subverted to constructing tunnels, rockets, and other weapons to incite terrorism. Diverting aid to promoting terrorism has made the Palestinians in Gaza poor.
Poor Gaza, a short lament by Michael Savage. Click to read the full lament.
Poor Gaza, except with enough money to buy and launch 700 missiles with thousands more stockpiled for tomorrow, or the next day. (Each one is $45,000 USD so today’s war cost….$31,500,000USD) But poor Gaza, with no schools, and no new hospitals, but with resources to build advanced tunnels terror attack tunnel systems stretching miles deep into Israel. (Estimated cost: 150 million USD) Poor Gaza, kept from developing, from air travel, from running their own country as they wish.
 
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Clearly, you've never studied any history of the events. Try this one:
Yeah, nah. You bet, folks, this debate feels like it's going in circles. Steve, Jon, Doc, and the others, they all sound the same. They just keep saying the same things, even when someone questions them. "Palestine bad, Israel good"... it's like a broken record.
They only pay attention to what they want, and that's not very interesting, is it? So, go on, stick to your beliefs. I won't bother challenging them; it's a waste of time. How many years have you all been doing this, like 20 years? What was I even thinking 😆?
Good luck with your next debate. Let's hope it brings some new ideas that you actually want to talk about.

Peace. <---- Yup

PS: Jon, is there any way to "sage" posts like it's done on image boards? something to not bring the thread up on the list again?
 
Yeah, nah. You bet, folks, this debate feels like it's going in circles. Steve, Jon, Doc, and the others, they all sound the same. They just keep saying the same things, even when someone questions them. "Palestine bad, Israel good"... it's like a broken record.
They only pay attention to what they want, and that's not very interesting, is it? So, go on, stick to your beliefs. I won't bother challenging them; it's a waste of time.
Myself, Steve and Doc are pleased you don't do the same thing. We are learning so much from you! :D
 
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@Edgar_ EXACTLY how do you make peace with people whose constitution specifically says that they want you dead and there will be no peace until they drive you into the sea and occupy the territory they claim that you took from them?

Also, if Islam is so "good" and Arabs are so "welcoming", why are they all refusing to take Palestinian refugees? Why after 75 years have they refused to let the original refugees or at least their descendents become citizens and integrate into their society? It's not like the refugees speak a different language, practice a different religion, or are even of a different ethnic group. They are all Arabs, at least in the immediately neighboring countries.

The Ottoman empire was occupied territory at the end of WWI. The Ottomans were allies of Germany and Germany lost the war. So, the territory the other side of the conflict occupied at the ceasefire was forfeit as frequently happens in war and the region called Palestine (there was NEVER a country by that name) was handed off to the Britts to manage. Then the rest of the Ottoman empire and the other allies of Germany had their territory divvied up into the countries we see today. The division was very poor and should probably have paid more attention to ethnic and religious lines. But they didn't and so countries like Iraq ended up with three separate groups each of which hated the other and had to try to make a cohesive country. They drove out the fourth faction (the Christians) in the 30's. That takes a "strong man" and it went downhill from there.

When the Palestinian Mandate ended after WWII, GB broke "Palestine" into two parts and handed them over to the Jews and the Muslims. That was the two-state solution everyone talks about and that would have lasted except that one of the parties of the two-state solution decided that the other party should have NOTHING. How do you get to peace with that as a baseline?

Israel is not pure in all this. They have done things they shouldn't but they aren't the ones with KILL THE JEWS as part of their constitution either. Mostly, they just react when they have to.

Also, I'm sure you still think that Israel bombed that hospital but they didn't and there's proof. The only question that remains is did Hamas bomb its own hospital intentionally????????????????
 
When you stick to facts, that tends to happen a lot.
You see, there was this fake news about beheaded babies, then there was that other about the footage of a hospital bombing, both propaganda, from both sides, both had no irrefutable evidence, it was just bs, that's war, all that hatred for either group caused by fake news, yet this thread is filled with recent articles, like that one about $45kUSD missiles being shot by Hamas, it looked interesting then it turns out the author did not cite where he got those numbers... cool, more fake news, believed, apparently. Keep them coming.

Yeh yeh, Israel's attacks are defense, P's attacks are terror. Israel babies are worth so much more than P's babies, yeh yeh. An ukranian bomb is freedom, kills for freedom, a russian bomb is crime, it kills for power, yeh yeh.

Oh, no, money has nothing to do in all of this, it's just evil, P's babies were born hating on jews, they were born and, in order to prove they're worth for Hamas, they had to asphyxiate their mom with their umbilical cord, look, I read it on this link, yeh yeh.

Israel is love, Israel is life.
 
We have noted already that the "beheaded babies" story was retracted. We have TV footage from multiple sources that shows the hospital's missile came from the direction of Gaza. It was probably a missile that went off course.

@Edgar_ - It is clear that you disagree with Israeli action. I have to ask this question:

When the persons who initiated the attack on you say that they will not relent, that they will continue their attack until you and yours are all dead, WHAT ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO DO? If you have no rational answer for that, you are refusing to understand the dilemma and your prejudices are clouding your judgment. If Hamas didn't have that statement in their charter, things would perhaps be different and we could discuss a more rational approach. But as long as Hamas takes the "all or none at all" approach to warfare against Israel, WHAT IS ISRAEL SUPPOSED TO DO? We are all awaiting your words of wisdom.
 
WHAT ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO DO
Well, clearly not genocide, but genocide is what's happening.

WHAT IS ISRAEL SUPPOSED TO DO
What can I even tell you? I give this topic only a few minutes a day. I can only tell you they should (have*) be(en*) looking for peace, but no, they're looking for annexation, massacre and ethnical cleansing. Supporting that is wrong. They could have done many things before this atrocity, they had the means for it, but they already had a map of the new middle east. By the way, Jon says he has learned nothing from me, well, he shouldn't learn s**t from me, I say something, if it grabs someone's attention, go check it out. Look at this (if you want):
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveb...hat-includes-west-bank-and-gaza-at-un-speech/

Look at the date, then look at the map.

Realistically speaking, I doubt they couldn't anticipate this, the rest of the world should be disqualifying it and a good chunk is, thankfully. Now, I can not tell you what Israel should do, but what can P do?

Facts. This is no fake news. What was Netanyahu even thinking? Oh yes, his 4th war agains P, what else?
 
Well, clearly not genocide, but genocide is what's happening.

But that is not a rational answer to the question. When your opponent says "Death to all Israelis" and continues to act like they mean it, does Israel NOT have the right to defend themselves against the actions of Hamas and ELIMINATE their enemy? War is a messy business and - particularly when many people in Gaza aid and abet Hamas in the goal of eliminating Israel - it is going to get messier.

"Clearly not genocide" is something that only a side-lines observer can say.
 
But that is not a rational answer to the question. When your opponent says "Death to all Israelis" and continues to act like they mean it, does Israel NOT have the right to defend themselves against the actions of Hamas and ELIMINATE their enemy? War is a messy business and - particularly when many people in Gaza aid and abet Hamas in the goal of eliminating Israel - it is going to get messier.

"Clearly not genocide" is something that only a side-lines observer can say.
And that map has nothing to do with this, right?
 
When your opponent says "Death to all Israelis" and continues to act like they mean it, does Israel NOT have the right to defend themselves against the actions of Hamas and ELIMINATE their enemy?
It seems that the genocide of Jews is written into the Hamas constitution. Funny how those who support terrorism flip the script, turn a blind eye, justify and promote the actions of Hamas, who are the tip of the spear for the Palestinian civilians, the majority of which seek war against Israel, according to the most recent polling.

@Edgar_ You say look at the map, I say look at the bodies. You say, no irrefutable evidence about the hospital bombing, I say, no contrary evidence from the Hamas side, multiple videos from different angles of rocket barrage adjacent to and towards the hospital at 6.59pm with hospital explosion at 6:59pm, small crater in car park. But you know all this already, yet it is never enough evidence if it points to Palestinians killing their own people en mass. Why? Because evidence doesn't mean anything to you.

When you support those who want to exterminate the Jews, like the Nazi's did, you will justify anything to yourself, just like Hamas justifies seeking out and murdering hundreds of civilians to vent their anger. You will hide behind statements such as the "genocide of Palestinians". And if it was the Israelis who hit the hospital, you would use that to support your genocide claims and moral outrage. But if the Palestinians hit the hospital, you would go silent. I wonder why. (We all know why: further evidence of Palestinians recklessly endangering the lives of Palestinians, which kinda goes against the false narrative of the innocent Palestinians.)
 
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And that map has nothing to do with this, right?

Maps mean nothing. It is the actions of people inside the boundaries. Maps never killed anyone. People do that.

Do you want me to say that Israel may have been strict in their treatment of the people of Gaza? Sure they have. BUT FOR A REASON. How many rocket barrages in the past few decades does it take for you to identify that Hamas is out to kill Israeli people? If the people of Gaza would just recognize that they are better off without invoking continual provocation of Israel, things might actually quiet down and get better over time. But no, that's not what has happened so far.

You bemoan our continued repetition of this concept - that Hamas started this particular round of fighting and they are therefore responsible for the deaths pursuant to this particular round of fighting. Even the deaths of Gaza residents have to be on their shoulders.

Do you have any appreciation for the concept of cause and effect? We return to this point over and over because it is our reason for siding with Israel. You don't like repetition, but the cause is now a matter of history and we can't go back in time to change it. So do you want us to ignore history? Oh, wait: Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. How many more times will this happen?
 
You say look at the map, I say look at the bodies
Based on this alone, you're confirming you only look at a consequence (singular), and disregard the causes (plural). The hospital bombing, as I mentioned, was P's propaganda, as you can see here:
then there was that other about the footage of a hospital bombing, both propaganda
So this:
evidence doesn't mean anything to you.
Is baseless.

As well as this:
When you support those who want to exterminate the Jews, like the Nazi's did, you will justify anything to yourself, just like Hamas justifies seeking out and murdering hundreds of civilians to vent their anger
You're now associating the term "Nazi" with me, and you previously associated me with the following:
The extremists believe the same as you, hence the recent murders in the UK, France (stabbed teacher), and Swedish football fans. Also in Egypt where a police officer shot two Israeli tourists. They justify their actions by suggesting the West together with Israel are responsible and are therefore justifiable targets. The Nazi's would also agree with you, since they had a pathological hatred of Jews, wherever they may reside.

To me, it seems to be a case of muslim against non-muslim. When Hamas targeted and then murdered those civilians, they had no idea if they were Israeli's, Americans, Jews, Christians or whatever. They just had bloodlust and wanted to vent their anger by killing other innocent people, and then shouting "God is great!"
All for supporting life and peace, repugning war and frowning upon asymmetric attacks.

All of this after ignoring I have previously stated several different causes for the most recent attack from P towards Israel.

On Israel, 1k+ died, which then resulted in how many deaths on P? Hint: You don't know, nobody knows how many people have died on P. But by the evidence, clearly, it's a genocide or a much higher scale, coming from a country that encouraged the "first" (between quotes) attack.

You've written so much about the words written by Hamas where they say they want to kill jews, and then you (those opposing me) think this
Maps mean nothing.
It's laughable at this point.

Doc, now with you,
Maps mean nothing. It is the actions of people inside the boundaries. Maps never killed anyone. People do that.
You know what?

It's pointless. I don't even know why I write this.

I show you the knife with blood, the meat of the cow, the video of the butcher, the slaughterhouse, the mother of the cow living in the same slaughterhouse, the cook, the guy eating the meat and you still tell me carnivores don't exist. It's pointless.:p

See ya.
 
you still tell me carnivores don't exist.

Oh, but you are wrong, because I absolutely know that carnivores DO exist. I simply believe you have misidentified which side is the carnivore.

I understand that living conditions in Gaza are deplorable. I had a long discussion with a friend who was born in Algeria and went through some of the nastiness that France visited upon his people. Even after all that was done, he SWEARS (by Allah, pbuh) that the Hamas fighters have condemned themselves to a fiery Hell for attacking innocents. He doesn't like Israel, but even he, a devout Muslim, sees that Hamas went over the line this time. @Edgar_ - it is simple. The Quran identifies things you must not do, and the slaughter of women, children, and innocents are among the top of that list. Doesn't matter what the Christians think because the two horses in this particular race are Jews and Muslims.

EDITED to remove an inadvertently derogatory term - TDM

And you have shown nothing that we didn't know about before. I've said it before and I'll say it again because to my viewpoint, it is YOU who is not paying attention. When you harbor terrorists in your area and don't make them leave, or when you don't turn them in, or when you don't leave the area and let them face their own form of Hell on Earth, then you are complicit in the depredation when those terrorists attack innocent people.
 
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Doc, this is you 11 days ago:
Cannot rationally disagree. I've seen news articles supporting reports of both of those actions having really happened.

This first article comes from Fox News, which some people revile, but its what I've got:


The headlines on the NY Times (on the Web) for Oct. 10th, 2023, also suggest various atrocities. However, they are on a pay system so if you want to read an article, it might not be free.


This is me 11 days ago:
As if making up stories to justify atrocities had not been done before.
As if most news networks weren't manipulated by a few people with shady interests.

ANY claim, of any nature during war, if it's not backed by irrefutable evidence, it should be considered propaganda, I repeat, specially during war. Who is reporting all these things? Israel? then be suspicious. Don't believe everything you read just because it's on the internet. Or just because it comes from your favorite news reporter. Justifying mass murder is wrong and nobody here has enough evidence about what is going on and the reasons for it.

I've seen these narratives, who knows how many times. I can't believe people swallow it like this. I mean, wow, do you guys really believe everything you read on the internet?

This is you 10 days after
We have noted already that the "beheaded babies" story was retracted. We have TV footage from multiple sources that shows the hospital's missile came from the direction of Gaza. It was probably a missile that went off course.

@Edgar_ - It is clear that you disagree with Israeli action. I have to ask this question:

When the persons who initiated the attack on you say that they will not relent, that they will continue their attack until you and yours are all dead, WHAT ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO DO? If you have no rational answer for that, you are refusing to understand the dilemma and your prejudices are clouding your judgment. If Hamas didn't have that statement in their charter, things would perhaps be different and we could discuss a more rational approach. But as long as Hamas takes the "all or none at all" approach to warfare against Israel, WHAT IS ISRAEL SUPPOSED TO DO? We are all awaiting your words of wisdom.

This is you today
And you have shown nothing that we didn't know about before. I've said it before and I'll say it again because to my viewpoint, it is YOU who is not paying attention

My reply to you writes itself.
 
@Edgar_ You took Doc's quote out of context, he was responding to my IF statement about babies being beheaded, note I said if.
 

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