FYI re the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment (3 Viewers)

[Pat Hartman]

While experts representing the wealthy may construct tax schemes of deep complexity, Rettig says they are good at doing so within the letter of the law.

That is what the tax code is intended to do. It provides deductions that are very complex and that only the wealthy benefit from. Trump has said this more than once. Taking advantage of the tax code is not criminal. The tax code itself may be criminal given how it gives particular people/industries advantages but you have no obligation to pay more tax than the code calls for.

The IRS automatically has fed to it

1. W2 info
2. K1 info
3. Stock transactions
4. Investment account holdings
5. the various 1099 versions

All of these things can be analyzed via computer and matched to tax returns. I'm pretty sure that the banks all report something to the IRS also so they know if you have 30 checking accounts at different banks and they may even know the balance.

So with some not too difficult programming, they can do all this cross matching for a single year and even year to year.

The killer for them is deductions. And small businesses are especially problematic. I've worked for more than one small business where I'm pretty sure that the owner was using the maintenance staff on his own property.

 

[Pat Hartman]

I stay out of trouble better when telling the truth.

Lies were always twice the punishment in our house. Once for the "crime" and again for the lie.

 

[Steve R.]

While experts representing the wealthy may construct tax schemes of deep complexity, Rettig says they are good at doing so within the letter of the law.

That is what the tax code is intended to do. It provides deductions that are very complex and that only the wealthy benefit from. Trump has said this more than once. Taking advantage of the tax code is not criminal. The tax code itself may be criminal given how it gives particular people/industries advantages but you have no obligation to pay more tax than the code calls for.

The IRS automatically has fed to it

1. W2 info
2. K1 info
3. Stock transactions
4. Investment account holdings
5. the various 1099 versions

All of these things can be analyzed via computer and matched to tax returns. I'm pretty sure that the banks all report something to the IRS also so they know if you have 30 checking accounts at different banks and they may even know the balance.

So with some not too difficult programming, they can do all this cross matching for a single year and even year to year.

The killer for them is deductions. And small businesses are especially problematic. I've worked for more than one small business where I'm pretty sure that the owner was using the maintenance staff on his own property.

The point of having a Byzantine tax code of "deep complexity" is to have an incomprehensible "law" where subjective manipulation is used to either prosecute if the person is disliked by the current political establishment or allowed to walk free if that person is liked by the current establishment. Computerization, by looking at all the data, then makes it "easy" to ferret out a "target" for alleged tax evasion.

 

[Pat Hartman]

The tax prep program I use provides audit guidelines by providing a list of various deductions that are frequently questioned and the range for other filers with my income. So, I know if the average of something is $3,000 and I try to deduct $25,000, then I'm probably going to have to prove the deduction in an audit. Staying within the range does not guarantee you won't be audited but it does guarantee that you won't be flagged as an outlier and therefore suspicious.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Yep, my automated code has warnings when there is a potential trap for audits. The last time it went off, turned out to be a typo on my part and once I un-reversed the digits, it was happy. I won't actually advertise it, but I've used HRB for over 10 years and never had a complaint except for the time that they left Louisiana out of their list of states from which I could get a State tax add-in. I know my state isn't THAT great, but come on, folks! We pay taxes too!

 

[RogerCooper]

If all politicians and really all of us had to meet the high standards of the mosaic law, there would never be any electable politicians or any good human beings out there. The point is, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Who among us is without sin?


If you like the prices of food and necessities during the trump years and see the difference currently, then you know who's policies screwed the economy up.

If you liked the cost of housing during the trump years and not as much now, then you know who's policies screwed the housing market up.

The worst part is that it's easy to damage the economy and steel from all of us by way of inflation. That hurts poor people the most and rich people the least. You would have to convince yourself that it's not happening by closing your eye's and dreaming good things happening if you are poor.

With all the trillions of dollars spent on policies that do no good for the country, we still don't have an effective way to stop illegal border crossings. Remember each new person that comes into the country and demands food and shelter is a huge drain on the tax payers. Poor American's can see what the illegals are getting financially, and the poorest are suffering because of it.

I have never murdered or stolen or born false witness or committed adultery. Have you? It seems more like the bare minimum for rather than a high standard.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I have never murdered or stolen or born false witness or committed adultery. Have you? It seems more like the bare minimum for rather than a high standard.

Born false witness... that can be taken two ways, you know.

If it is generic, then I have to ask "Does it count when I bear false witness at the poker table?"

But if "bearing false witness" relates to witnessing some facet of religion, it puts a whole new spin on the question. I'm not quite enough of a Biblical scholar to know the EXACT translation and thus know the Biblical difference between "thou shalt not lie" and "thou shalt not falsely profess some knowledge of God or Jesus... (or Allah, I guess would be included.)"?

 

[Pat Hartman]

Excellent question Doc, It would be one for the Rabbis to discuss at length. People of the time didn't play poker or Bridge. There is a real art to convincing the opponents that you or your partner (in the case of Bridge) have/don't have particular assets.

 

[Steve R.]

What income group actually pays taxes? Let us not forget that in any given recent year ~ 47% of wage earners pay NO INCOME TAX. It's hard to give tax breaks to people who start out at zero. Duh!!!!!!!!!

There is another subtle aspect to who pays the taxes and even the concept of Biden's ludicrous "fair share". This thread has already discussed that a significant portion of the population ~47% pays no income tax, which makes the Biden claim that Trump's tax cut only benefited the rich, which simply makes the claim an issue of (misleading) optics. Moving onto the "new" subtle aspect is the issue of corporate tax rates.

The Biden administration is proposing to increase the corporate tax rate. Biden has also asserted that he would not increase the tax burden for those earning less than a certain amount. The subtle aspect is that increasing the corporate tax rate means that consumers will be paying more for products as the corporations embed those taxes into their pricing. The net effect is that Biden would be causing the consumer (irrespective of income) to pay more in taxes. Moreover, this tax would be regressive, hurting the poor more than the rich, a taxing policy the Democrats claim to oppose.

As a final side note, there is inflation. Biden asserts that he won't raise taxes for those earning above a certain amount. But, as a consequence of inflation caused by Biden's economic policies, wages will rise. Unless Biden makes his commitment adjusted for inflation, people will be paying more in taxes as their income rises.

 

[Pat Hartman]

The subtle aspect is that increasing the corporate tax rate means that consumers will be paying more for products as the corporations embed those taxes into their pricing.

Conversely though, when Trump reduced Corporate taxes, none of them jumped on the "let's lower our prices" bandwagon.

Biden has killed the middle class with inflation. The poor get subsidized. The rich get richer. As usual, the backbone of the country bears the weight of the bad economic policies. And Detroit has 40% of the population it had 50 years ago.

 

[Steve R.]

Conversely though, when Trump reduced Corporate taxes, none of them jumped on the "let's lower our prices" bandwagon.

Corporation are all about maximizing their profits.
That's were you hope capitalism really works. Corporations lowering their prices to out-compete their rivals.
Look at gas prices (for cars), they pretty much fluctuate in response to the price of oil. Ironically, it seems that many of the gas stations raise and lower their gas prices in unison!

 

[Mike Krailo]

But if "bearing false witness" relates to witnessing some facet of religion, it puts a whole new spin on the question. I'm not quite enough of a Biblical scholar to know the EXACT translation and thus know the Biblical difference between "thou shalt not lie" and "thou shalt not falsely profess some knowledge of God or Jesus... (or Allah, I guess would be included.)"?

Someone commits an obvious crime, doesn't matter what it is but usually it's something significant in nature and involves a court room or some system of justice. If you are a witness to said crime, then if you choose not to say anything about it because you don't want to get involved or because you don't want the person who committed the crime to come for you next, that's baring false witness. If you are questioned by those in the system of justice about what happened, trying to spin it any other way than what you witnessed is baring false witness. The effect of baring false witness affects the accused either positively or negatively so it can cause justice or make you complicit in covering up the crime. Unfortunately, anyone can be dragged into such a situation unwillingly and when the criminal is ruthless, you could fear for your life by becoming a snitch. There is truth about what happened, and there are false recollections about what happened. Think of all the people in a neighborhood who witness gang related crimes and simply refuse to tell the police what happened because they fear for their lives about the retribution that would ensue. Now think about the actual victim of the witnessed crime.

Lying on the other hand is very general in nature and may not affect the outcome of a criminal trial or judgement of a serious crime, but be something less obvious. It could be just general deception to get something from another person or make yourself look better than you actually are by recalling stories about your past history and bragging about fictitious things that you did. It's kind of like baring false witness against yourself. That's exactly what it is. Lying is baring false witness against yourself.

White lies: A stupid example that comes to mind is calling a stroke on yourself in golf when no one else but you sees that you caused the ball to move prior to taking your actual stroke. You take the stroke on the card because it happened and YOU seen it happened. That simple example can be applied to just about anything you can think of in normal life. Being true to yourself is a very powerful thing. In contrast, lying to one's self is a very self destructive thing that leads to bad things happening in your life but could be viewed as something insignificant in order to justify it to yourself (white lies). Interestingly, the commandments do not differentiate this type of lie. But elsewhere in the bible it does.

Proverbs 12:22: “The Lord detests lying lips, but he delights in people who are trustworthy.” (NIV)

As far as referring to specific religious rules, that's obviously only for those that have chosen to follow those particular rules in question based on their religion. The highest religious authority is God himself.

 

[Pat Hartman]

it seems that many of the gas stations raise and lower their gas prices in unison!

AND, they are always fast on the uptic but slow to lower, although, they are better at lowering than they used to be.

I think of white lies as those we tell to spare the feelings of others. How do you like my new haircut? You hate the style but reply something non-committal like, it emphasizes the natural wave in your bangs. It takes a very brave friend to tell the truth in situations like this and just remind your friend that it will grow out or she can wear a hat in the meantime.

Lying to yourself is very destructive and lying to others can be also. Jill, lying to Joe about how well he did answering questions was horrifying. She was basically petting the head of her dog who just happens to be our current President. If there is any of Joe left, he knew he didn't perform very well. His wife lying to him rather than taking him away and asking him to retire due to ill health was simply elder abuse and says a lot about her personal quest for power. Joe is the gravy train for the Biden crime family and all the hangers on.

Joe has been lying since he entered politics a century ago. He is the epitome of the joke "How do you know a politician is lying? His mouth is moving." Joe repeatedly, and stupidly tells lies that are easily exposed and which have been many times over the years but he never seems to stop. He has repeated them so often that he probably thinks they are true. How many times has he lied about being "top of his class" and getting "three degrees", etc.

Trump on the other hand, while still being a braggart (seems to go with the territory) is more likely to inflate the truth rather than just make up bald faced lies. Of course, when the left disagrees with his opinions, they berate him mercilessly and call him a liar. COVID being like a bad flu wasn't a lie he made up, he was repeating what the experts were telling him. The problem was the political winds were changing and the experts who were saying things like that to Trump were getting cancelled right and left so they couldn't corroborate that Trump was repeating what they had told him rather than just making something up. Now we know that Trump's initial attempts to quell the fears of the public were right. His experts were right it was the left and their Tools at the FDA and CDC who blew COVID all out of proportion and ruined lives and businesses and hurt children permanently all in an attempt to undermine Trump and prevent him from getting reelected. If I were a conspiracy freak, I would say that the Dems unleashed the COVID virus specifically so they could take advantage of the chaos it would cause to steal the election from Trump. But the truth of COVID and who actually lied is coming out in dribs and drabs.

 

[ColinEssex]

If one 'inflates the truth', isn't the 'inflated' part a lie?
Col

 

[Mike Krailo]

If one 'inflates the truth', isn't the 'inflated' part a lie?
Col

Yes, good observation. That mostly falls under the white lie category, but a lie none the less. If you understand where trump came from, queens new york, you would undersrand how normal it is to exagerate and inflate the truth. Can you imagine telling the truth like jim carry in liar liar? That's not going to go over well.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Part of the problem with "inflating the truth" is that it is a time-honored tradition in many cultures to inflate one's boasts or to exaggerate one's tall tales. (Where do you think we GET the term "tall tales" in the first place?) Think of "fish stories" told by fisherman regarding "the one that got away." Think of the stories of knights of the Round Table and the giants, ogres, and dragons they dispatched. Think of gunslingers in the USA Old West and their stories of all the folks THEY killed in gun battles.

Some of the modern movie depictions of those stories have one thing represented correctly on the big screen. The movies, showing many dozens and approaching hundreds of rounds fired (while hitting no one), shows that the movie is also depicting the story's exaggeration. If that many rounds had actually been fired, the desperadoes would have needed a horse-drawn wagon to hold their ammunition. Not to mention that they would need to rob banks just to pay for the bullets they used.

It's all about pure bravado and extreme self-aggrandizement - but a common part of the culture to brag about one's feats and to inflate the dangers one has faced. Exaggeration and story escalation and inflating the truth are common to Mankind. It's all this modern technology - with its ability to do rapid fact-checking - that is going to aggravate the best story tellers.

 

[Mike Krailo]

Part of the problem with "inflating the truth" is that it is a time-honored tradition in many cultures to inflate one's boasts or to exaggerate one's tall tales. (Where do you think we GET the term "tall tales" in the first place?) Think of "fish stories" told by fisherman regarding "the one that got away." Think of the stories of knights of the Round Table and the giants, ogres, and dragons they dispatched. Think of gunslingers in the USA Old West and their stories of all the folks THEY killed in gun battles.

This just harms the person telling the lie in most cases. However, in situations where the exaggerations affect other people in some negative way, that's when it crosses the line. It all goes back to "do unto others as you would have done unto you". If you enjoy being lied to by your friends, then have at it.

Taking your fish exaggeration to the next level, the guy is in a fishing contest competing against other people for largest fish caught and there are a long list of rules for making sure there is no cheating. There is a monetary prize for the winner. Now this all goes off of weight of the fish, and the guy decides to essentially lie about the weight of the fish that he claims is the winning fish of the competition. It is later determined that the fish is full of lead weights to cause the fish to abnormally be heavier than fish similarly sized. He is then disqualified from the contest. This now crosses the threshold a little into affecting the other people in the contest. So it all depends on the context, but even so, this is more harming himself because now his reputation is damaged because now he is a cheater. See how that works?

Telling a story as if it were true absolutely and fully accurate and it actually isn't, is a lie to one's self. Baring false witness against yourself only changes the perception that others have of you, but doesn't really do much damage to others especially if you enjoy listening to tall tales and are aware that there is an element of exaggeration in there based on the culture.

 

[ColinEssex]

Some of the modern movie depictions of those stories have one thing represented correctly on the big screen. The movies, showing many dozens and approaching hundreds of rounds fired (while hitting no one), shows that the movie is also depicting the story's exaggeration.

Don't forget that a 'six shooter' (I think it's a Colt45) can fire 30 or 40 rounds without reloading.
Col

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Don't forget that a 'six shooter' (I think it's a Colt45) can fire 30 or 40 rounds without reloading.
Col

Exactly - a perfect example of movie "magic" and if such a gun actually existed, we wouldn't need all those extended ammo clips.

Though to be honest, there was one series of movies where ammo limits played into the story... the "Dirty Harry" movies with Clint Eastwood. Once, against the serial killer "Scorpio" he asked the perp if he remembered whether he had shot six rounds or only five. Followed by the line, "Well, do you feel lucky, punk? Do you?" And the punk felt lucky but his feeling was in error, shortly after which he wasn't feeling anything. Then again, in another movie after a bank shootout, he bluffed a guy going for a shotgun with a similar dialog sequence, but this time the shotgun guy WASN'T feeling lucky so he didn't go for the gun. And afterwards, Harry revealed that his gun was empty.

 

[Pat Hartman]

However, in situations where the exaggerations affect other people in some negative way, that's when it crosses the line.

Do you mean like, if you take the vaccine you can't catch covid? How about, you MUST take the vaccine to protect ME? == Biden's words and the action he pushed was firing people who refused to take the emergency use ONLY "vaccine" because they knew they were not in a danger class and that it was safer for them to catch COVID and develop natural immunity. Now, they are pushing this vaccine on infants and there have been no actual long term trials.

Whereas Trump told us that COVID was like a bad flu. For three solid years we have been told that was a lie and here we are in 2024 and it turns out that Trump was actually telling us the truth.