Continued theology discussion... Not sure what to call this really....

[Kryst51]

OK, so here is to continue a conversation from the abortion thread. Here is what I posted:

Please see my post about sin that is in all the world, it is inherent in the world itself, not just people, and I do mean ALL people, we are born into it, we sin by the very fact that we do not perfectly follow God's law. EVERYONE will die because sin is present in the world, I don't mean that in a mean way, just that the aging process and every kind of death is there because sin is in the earth and on the earth. I am not picking on anyone, everything unjust in this world is a result of a fallen world that will one day be restored and redeemed... That is the history the Bible gives. God grieves just as much over the lives of these poor people as you and I and most of the world does, that is why He is not leaving us in this sin, but provides a way out of it, and a hope for a better future.

and here is Adam Caramon's response with some questions, that I will try to answer in this thread:

I think religion is a fascinating subject, and people's beliefs are often varied. So, I've a few questions for you, and you can feel free to answer them or not. I'm not trying to catch you in an "ah ha!" moment or anything, and you do seem like a nice person, so hopefully you'll answer these.

1. Do you notice the correlation at all between God's provided way out (i.e. worship him), and the fact that throughout history this act has been tied to an organization (i.e. church)? As a lover of history, I've studied many relgions both before and after Christianity, and I've always thought this was an obvious point that even religious people would have to see.
2. Is your faith tied to any facts? In other words, is there anything that could be discovered that would seriously make you question your faith? If so, give an example, and if not, do you see any correlation between mind control/brainwashing and organized religion?
3. Being as there are many religions in the world, and thousands throughout history that are no longer around, do you believe that all of those religions were wrong, and yours is the correct one?
4. And lastly, before Christianity was discovered (or introduced), all of the humans alive did not have the opportunity to be Christians, as it did not exist. Since these people did not worship God, what happened to them afterlife wise?

Edit: this continues the discussion from this thread.

 

[chergh]

Why are we born with sin???

 

[Alc]

Why are we born with sin???

Saves time

 

[georgedwilkinson]

Do you notice the correlation at all between God's provided way out (i.e. worship him), and the fact that throughout history this act has been tied to an organization (i.e. church)? As a lover of history, I've studied many relgions both before and after Christianity, and I've always thought this was an obvious point that even religious people would have to see.

As a Christian (not necessarily religious), I have seen the correlation. It is spelled out in the Bible. God established the church on earth to do his work. If it was corrupted, it was done by man (as predicted by Kryst51).

Is your faith tied to any facts? In other words, is there anything that could be discovered that would seriously make you question your faith? If so, give an example, and if not, do you see any correlation between mind control/brainwashing and organized religion?

I see the same correlation between mind control and religion as I do between mind control and the news. Or mind control and school. The thing that is controlled is the content being presented to the listener. The church has no particularly good reason to teach math or talk about the accident rate at the local traffic light. The content they present to the people is most likely going to be spiritual and Bible history.

I'm not really sure how this is related to my faith being tied to facts. I have a very open mind, which seems like a really important thing. Had the church (and by that, I mean the church leadership) had an open mind in the past, they would have seen the work of Copernicus to be supporting their view rather than refuting it. Then there would have been no need to give us all a black eye by being controlling. Of course, anyone at that time who had suggested that would have also been put in the dungeon.

Being as there are many religions in the world, and thousands throughout history that are no longer around, do you believe that all of those religions were wrong, and yours is the correct one?

It isn't my job to judge other religions. In fact, I work with many (Christian) religions as a music minister. I John chapter 4 spells out how to know if a group of people are teaching the right thing. And I believe God has a purpose for each and every sect. I don't know what that purpose might be but it could have something to do with God wanting each sect to do a slightly different work.

And lastly, before Christianity was discovered (or introduced), all of the humans alive did not have the opportunity to be Christians, as it did not exist. Since these people did not worship God, what happened to them afterlife wise?

Where did you get that people didn't worship God before Christianity? They worshiped God robustly! The entire Old Testament of the Bible tells the story of worship or God by the nations of Judah and Israel (and their forebears) and the wrong turns of man before Christianity. It also predicts Christianity.

As far as what happened to God worshipers before Christianity, there is a very small amount of evidence in the Bible of a place between Heaven and Hell (maybe called purgatory) which was kind of a holding area (in one story the same place may have been called "Abraham's Bosom"). Theologians disagree on whether that place is still being used for Christians or not. In the end times, the contents of Abraham's Bosom (purgatory?) will be judged based on the law that was available at the time of their death. My guess is that all people's souls in purgatory will be transferred to the new Heaven. But then, what do I know? The really smart guys who care about this stuff can't even agree.

 

[laxster]

For that matter, will we ever really know? I find that life is very much rooted in mystery, and the further that we dig, the more questions. And questions are a good thing! But we never can, nor ever will know all the secrets of the universe no matter how hard we try to unravel, otherwise we'd be... God... Because the more we unravel, the more questions there are.

All I can do is try to lead a good, upright, moral life and guide others around me to do the same.

 

[Rich]

All I can do is try to lead a good, upright, moral life and guide others around me to do the same.

You don't need to believe in gods to do that

 

[Alc]

For that matter, will we ever really know? I find that life is very much rooted in mystery, and the further that we dig, the more questions. And questions are a good thing! But we never can, nor ever will know all the secrets of the universe no matter how hard we try to unravel, otherwise we'd be... God... Because the more we unravel, the more questions there are.

If you believe that god created everything, then surely there is no mystery? If he did, he initially created everything from nothing, using a method we couldn't possibly fathom, even if he sat us down and explained it. Nor could you follow his reasons for doing so.

All I can do is try to lead a good, upright, moral life and guide others around me to do the same.

As Rich observed, you don't have to have any religious beliefs at all to do the same thing.

 

[laxster]

If you believe that god created everything, then surely there is no mystery? If he did, he initially created everything from nothing, using a method we couldn't possibly fathom, even if he sat us down and explained it. Nor could you follow his reasons for doing so.

How were these things created? What's the truth, and what's parable? What are the deeper meanings? Science helps to explain part of this. But even to the secular scientist, unraveling answers to questions only results in more questions.

As Rich observed, you don't have to have any religious beliefs at all to do the same thing.

Hmm, I don't recall saying nor implying anyone did. I do what I do, and surround myself amongst good people, regardless of their personal convictions in God.

I try to present my ideas to be as secular as possible. My belief in God doesn't interfere in the validity of anything I say.

 

[Kryst51]

1. Do you notice the correlation at all between God's provided way out (i.e. worship him), and the fact that throughout history this act has been tied to an organization (i.e. church)? As a lover of history, I've studied many relgions both before and after Christianity, and I've always thought this was an obvious point that even religious people would have to see.

I will be including and sometimes quoting scripture (ESV) in response to these questions, as to answer them without such is only stating my opinion, not the truth, which is not based on my opinion. It is never good to take scripture out of context; also, there should always be other scripture to help you understand what is going on (Interpreting scripture with scripture).

For anyone, who would like to read the scripture, you can find it at this link.

First, God created us with the purpose of loving and enjoying Him (My evidence for this will have to come later as I am not able to look up the references from work), sin did not change that, sin made that impossible. The Church, as the Bible uses the term is two-fold, it is a physical location (the church in Philippi, the church in Ephesus), but it is also the collective body of believers in Christ. We are called to fellowship with each other, and to work together to achieve God’s purpose. Here I will cite some scriptures that talk about what the Church actually is:

This is where Jesus was speaking to a woman at the well, if you want to read this start at the beginning of the chapter, it will give you more context of what is going on.

John 4:19-26

In this passage Jesus is talking with His disciples about who He is.
Matthew 16:13-20

All of Colossians chapter one talks about the church

Ephesians 4:1-16

 

[Adam Caramon]

I see the same correlation between mind control and religion as I do between mind control and the news.

Various organizations (like the news, good example) put messages out there to people, some biased to issues, and hope to control people's minds by spinning or twisting the news to support what they like or demonize what they don't like. So I agree with you there.

But the news doesn't claim that you might die an eternal death in a lake of fire for not believing & living the life they say you should. I guess that's what separates the two to me.

I'm not really sure how this is related to my faith being tied to facts.

The reason I asked this is that many people are religious through their faith. They might believe that everything happens for a reason, or that our fates are already set or some such. Some of this faith is derived from a religious tome (bible f/x). Other is from a priest or other religious person's words. So if parts of the bible could be proven wrong, would that make a religious person question their faith?

If so, I was just looking for an example. I know that some were claiming a while back to have found Jesus' home and by studying it they could prove he was married, had kids, etc. Basically he was a normal guy. If this could be proved to a person's satisfaction, would they then lose faith or change religion?

And on the opposite side of the issue, if someone said nothing could shake their faith, I was asking if they felt at all like that they see a link between brainwashing and that state of mind. Often times they might not be able to realise it in themself or their religion, but looking at a different religion with the same concept and see if it makes sense (or you see the connection).

It isn't my job to judge other religions. In fact, I work with many (Christian) religions as a music minister. I John chapter 4 spells out how to know if a group of people are teaching the right thing.

That's for the different sects of Christianity, which makes sense to a point. But what about the Olympian Gods, for example? In the past people worshiped Zeus and Hades and such. Were those gods all made up? Same with Odin and the norse gods. Or Ra and the Egyptian gods.

Where did you get that people didn't worship God before Christianity?

Well, Christianity is relatively 'new' considering how long people have been inhabiting the Earth. So in 3000 B.C.E., when Egyptians gods were around, and Christianity was not, what happened to those people? That's what I meant.


Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

 

[Fifty2One]

Monotheism was around when the Egyptians, Olympians, Norse, etcetera were worshipping what they believed were their gods. Christianity is new because God only delivered his only son to earth just over 2 thousand years ago.

Various organizations (like the news, good example) put messages out there to people, some biased to issues, and hope to control people's minds by spinning or twisting the news to support what they like or demonize what they don't like. So I agree with you there.

But the news doesn't claim that you might die an eternal death in a lake of fire for not believing & living the life they say you should. I guess that's what separates the two to me.



The reason I asked this is that many people are religious through their faith. They might believe that everything happens for a reason, or that our fates are already set or some such. Some of this faith is derived from a religious tome (bible f/x). Other is from a priest or other religious person's words. So if parts of the bible could be proven wrong, would that make a religious person question their faith?

If so, I was just looking for an example. I know that some were claiming a while back to have found Jesus' home and by studying it they could prove he was married, had kids, etc. Basically he was a normal guy. If this could be proved to a person's satisfaction, would they then lose faith or change religion?

And on the opposite side of the issue, if someone said nothing could shake their faith, I was asking if they felt at all like that they see a link between brainwashing and that state of mind. Often times they might not be able to realise it in themself or their religion, but looking at a different religion with the same concept and see if it makes sense (or you see the connection).



That's for the different sects of Christianity, which makes sense to a point. But what about the Olympian Gods, for example? In the past people worshiped Zeus and Hades and such. Were those gods all made up? Same with Odin and the norse gods. Or Ra and the Egyptian gods.



Well, Christianity is relatively 'new' considering how long people have been inhabiting the Earth. So in 3000 B.C.E., when Egyptians gods were around, and Christianity was not, what happened to those people? That's what I meant.


Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

 

[Adam Caramon]

Monotheism was around when the Egyptians, Olympians, Norse, etcetera were worshipping what they believed were their gods. Christianity is new because God only delivered his only son to earth just over 2 thousand years ago.

Monotheism simply means the belief in 1 god, not a specific god. To what are you referring? Are you saying Christianity has always been around (in some form or another), even 10,000 BCE, 50,000 BCE, 1,000,000 B.C.E etc?

 

[georgedwilkinson]

According to Genesis, Christianity (or at least Christ) was promised when Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden (when God was cursing the serpent). Judaism was the method whereby Christ was be delivered to the earth. In fact, I consider myself a true Jew because I believe in the God of the Jews and I have accepted the promise that God made to the Jewish people (the Christ).

 

[Rabbie]

According to Genesis, Christianity (or at least Christ) was promised when Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden (when God was cursing the serpent). Judaism was the method whereby Christ was be delivered to the earth. In fact, I consider myself a true Jew because I believe in the God of the Jews and I have accepted the promise that God made to the Jewish people (the Christ).

Genesis is regarded as a myth by many mainstream christian theologians so I am not sure it is reliable

 

[Kryst51]

Genesis is regarded as a myth by many mainstream christian theologians so I am not sure it is reliable

That is not true, all the theologians I know believe in Genesis. Who specifically are you referring to? Actually, that would point to someone really not being a Christian.... just taking the name of Christian

 

[georgedwilkinson]

Genesis is regarded as a myth by many mainstream christian theologians so I am not sure it is reliable

Hmmmm. I think I know more mainstream Christian theologians who believe in Genesis than I do those who don't. I'm not sure that I've ever seen a reliable study done on this. I know that none of the theologians I know have ever taken part in such a poll. I do know that many Christians interpret different parts of the Bible differently.

I'm just curious as to how these mainstream christian theologians explain how the Jewish race came about, since that is what Genesis explains.

However, a group of people who don't believe in a certain part of the Bible doesn't invalidate my point. The point was that Christianity has been promised since Judaism began. Christ (AKA "the promised Messiah") is a major part of the Jewish belief system. Christians just believe that the Messiah has already come, according to Jewish writings.

 

[Rich]

First, God created us with the purpose of loving and enjoying Him

So we're just god's toys then and if we don't love him we're condemmed to eternel hell, sounds like Stalin, Hitler etc. took a leaf out of the good book

 

[chergh]

If Genesis is true how do christians explain dinosaurs?

 

[georgedwilkinson]

If Genesis is true how do christians explain dinosaurs?

I'm not sure of the relevance of the question. Genesis is a Jewish document that promises the Messiah (at the very least). I only mentioned Genesis because it does promise the Messiah (AKA Christ, as in "Christian"), proving that Judaism provided for Christianity near the beginning. It also covers quite a bit of the history of the Jewish people. There is no reason to believe that the history is inaccurate as it has been corroborated in the Muslim texts and via Muslim and Jewish oral and written tradition.

I assume the thing in question is the first couple of chapters (a very minor part of the book of Genesis, BTW) that discuss the creation.

Genesis doesn't mention dinosaurs. Genesis also doesn't mention a number of other creatures that we have visual evidence of in every day life (lemurs, for instance, or kangaroos). It really isn't relevant and there are more theories that try to explain Genesis' very small emphasis on the creation than there are people trying to explain it. I won't even attempt to expound on those here as you can do your own google search and find more than enough information to keep you busy for months.

The book of Job, also a Jewish text in the Old Testament, seems to discuss something that some people believe may be dinosaurs. I don't know if they are or not, nor do I care. Just for your information (not because I think it matters one way or another), Job is the oldest written book in the Bible, pre-dating Genesis. If you're REALLY interested in the topic you can read it yourself in Job chapters 40 & 41.

Christianity (indeed all Judaism based religions) can exist with or without Genesis as it is chiefly historical.

 

[oumahexi]

The part of Genesis I don't understand is:

God created Adam and Eve - the only humans on Earth
Eve got them banned from the garden of eden
Eve gave birth to two boys, Cane and Able
Cane killed Able and ran away
Cane went to live with another tribe...

So, where did the other tribe come from?