Are you an atheist?

[MammAfrica]

I specifically tried not be aggressive. My first language is not English, so sometimes things come out in a way I did not mean it. But there is a line between having fun and displaying bad taste. It's like the discussion regarding the poling options. The words chosen was not the best, but I believe (was it Alice?) agreed that this was the case.

 

[Rabbie]

I specifically tried not be aggressive. My first language is not English, so sometimes things come out in a way I did not mean it. But there is a line between having fun and displaying bad taste. It's like the discussion regarding the poling options. The words chosen was not the best, but I believe (was it Alice?) agreed that this was the case.

I appreciate that English is not your first language but please do not be surprised if people interpret your belief that they will burn in Hell as aggressive. At the best it seems to be in bad taste.

 

[fire2ice]

You people are way too clever for me! I will not even try to respond to questions, let alone go into a fierce discussion on the why’s and how’s. I simply stated what I believe. I did not intent to take the "hell fire and brimstone" approach - sorry if it came out that way. I have no intention of inflicting my beliefs on anyone. I'm simply giving my honest opinion. I've been following this thread for a while now, and I see non-believers making fun of believers, not the other way around. Even the jokes are in bad taste.

I am not a Christian because I was brainwashed. I choose to be a Christian. I want to be a Christian. I am also not a Christian because I'm scared I'll go to hell if I'm not. I hardly ever talk about the hell. I raise my children to be Christians – not out of fear, but love. And please, I’m not saying love is restricted to Christians! I look around me and see many non-Christians. I see goodness, I see love, I see success, happiness, peace…etc. So, yes. I agree 100%. Many good people do not believe. Many bad ones do.

I once asked a Muslim friend of mine if she has experienced any miracles. And she said yes, she has. How do I explain it? I cannot. Who am I to say the Hindu, Muslim or Buddhist have the “wrong” religion?

The only single thing I will say with conviction about others is that I believe an atheist will go to hell. I also think many so-called “Christians” are going to hell.

Everything I said here will probably be pulled apart and I will probably be ridiculed. So be it. I believe. That is it. Simple. I believe. VIVA GOD, JESUS and THE HOLY SPIRIT!

It's funny. I've said much of the same thing and was argued half to death, not met with the same politeness that you've enjoyed. I didn’t even say they were going to hell and they treat you better. Go figure. That's why I don't participate in this thread any longer. However, I just wanted to throw some support your way as you will get very little here.

I think you are dead on in what you said (with the exception of the hell part… I think that people will be judged more on their acts than their faith and good people will not go to hell… but an atheist that sins will have a tougher time than a believer that sins… and let’s face it… we all sin). Although I'm not a Christian and do not have the belief in Jesus that you do, I definitely believe in God.

The whole time I tried to discuss my belief I merely said that I believe in God, not religion as they are two separate things. Then all I heard about is how bad religion is, but really didn't hear much about God except that he is a fantasy and that I needed to provide scientific proof (which we all know doesn’t exist… thus I was merely being told, through implication, that nothing I had to say had any validity and thus was meaningless).

The brimstone and hellfire approach to religion is the part that I truly do not like. I believe God is kind and loving. However, just like a parent, He will lay down the law and have consequences for disobedience.

My view on religion is that there IS one true God. However, I don't think any religion has gotten it 100% right. It's the same God that everyone prays to; however, they all have different interpretations of events in the world and the translation of the writings. If anyone is a Monty Python freak like me, you can understand my idea of why religion is so messed up by watching "The Life of Brian." It shows how a single event can cause separation. The dropping of the sandal created several different branches of religion, although there was only one event. Although the different cultures have a different idea of God, the cool thing is that they all have an idea of God.

Also, people like to question the bible (specifically the Old and New Testaments as I really don’t see anyone pointing out flaws in other religious writings) because of flaws in logic and such. I would like to point out that the bible, any religions writings, is the word of God written by man and later translated into our current understandings. The problem is that this is not a primary source. Although it contains the idea of God’s words, it doesn’t quite make as much sense as it would have if God wrote it Himself.

On top of that, the translation from then to now loses much (just the same as our Constitution). For example, the bible talks about the difficulty a rich man would have in entering Heaven. People read the text as saying it is impossible for a rich man to go to heaven based on the writing. However, what the bible says is that it would be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven. Sounds impossible right? In our current understanding it would be. In the time of the writing it would not have been. An eye of the needle is the name for the doorway made specifically for camels to walk through town (the high archways). The difficulty that the bible refers to is that camels hate to duck their heads. Thus, you have to prod and pull them through. With the rich man, it is difficult for some to bow their heads and humble themselves.

As I said, we do the same mangling with our Constitution. There is a separation in politics as there is in religion because of this. When we started, we were all Americans. However, through the interpretation of the Constitution, there are now a multitude of political beliefs (yes, they are not facts…and it is odd that some people hold the Constitution and the words of our founding fathers higher than that of God). Our problem is that we have no idea of what our founding fathers actually intended with their words and we translate meaning in the Constitution just as we do the bible.

For instance, lots of people march out the “separation of church and state” as keeping religion and prayer far away from anything about the government. But this is an interpretation of those that do not like religion or do not like a specific religion. The fact of the matter is that this country was founded by Christians and they did not want us to shun religion. In their time, there was a lot of theocracy. Religion was part of politics in that it actually controlled the government (at least to some extent). Our founding fathers wanted to prevent this. The separation of church and state was intended to keep the churches from having political control, not keeping prayer out of school (please note that prayer was part of school back in our founding fathers’ time). Our Constitution states that we should have freedom OF religion, not FROM religion.

Another example is the right to bear arms. Some people see this as a right to stockpile a deadly arsenal. Some see it as our right to have the ability to overthrow our own government. However, the right to bear arms has another statement that further defines this right and that is the right to form a militia. We have the right to bear arms in order to form a militia in the defense of our cities and our country. Remember, back then transportation issues meant that remote areas could not be reached for weeks, not mere hours. The ability to mobilize an army to protect certain areas of our widespread country was logistically impossible. Therefore, each city needed to be able to protect itself. Thus, this right was born.

Of course, there will be all kinds of flaming telling me how wrong I am in my political beliefs and the interpretation of the Constitution. Also, lots of people have waged war (or committed acts of terrorism because of these political belief differences). That only proves my point. Political beliefs…religious beliefs. They are all the same. I would like for someone to scientifically prove to me the true meaning of the Constitution and the ideals our founding fathers had. Ah….no scientific proof for that either.

So to conclude, before I go back into the darkness, anyone posting their beliefs in this thread is as correct as they want to be. Everyone has their own interpretation of life. The only thing I asked from the beginning was some respect and human decency. My opinion is different from others’. I respect that yours are different than mine. In fact, some believers will tell me I’m wrong as well. It’s all just a mixed stew of opinion.

The reason that the atheists have so many posts to this thread (other than blabber back and forth to each other for non-related chit-chat) is that they all attack any idea set forth by anyone with a differing opinion. Then they chase away those that would otherwise wish to have a meaningful discussion. Perhaps later someone like myself will poke my head in, only to find it bitten off. Then we leave and you wait for the next victim.

The reason we leave isn’t because you give a better argument or that we get out posted or that as MammAfrica said that you are way too clever, it’s that we get tired of our beliefs being belittled and constantly being told we are “wrong” when we state a belief. The reason we leave is that there is a lack of common courtesy. Although some of you don’t see anything wrong with saying that the bible is a fairy tale and that God is a mythical, magical creature, it is a very disrespectful thing to those that do believe. If you don’t believe, that is fine. If you think that God is not real, fine. However, using these terms is offensive to others. It’s okay for you to get up in arms about the semantics of the definition of atheist, but then you have no problem using such inflammatory words. This is why people don’t like being part of this discussion.

You may have over 2,000 posts on this thread, but most of them are from a small handful of people. It’s like you enjoy hearing yourselves talk instead of enjoy the discussion. The only reason I even check in on this thread is to hope that there are some people posting here with the voice of reason. Therefore, I applaud you MammAfrica for putting your head on the chopping block for these people. They may tear down any idea you have, but at least you had the courage to put it out there.

*poof*

 

[Alisa]

It's funny. I've said much of the same thing and was argued half to death, not met with the same politeness that you've enjoyed.

You sure have a hell of a lot to say for someone who is not participating in the discussion. Is it disrespectful to tell someone who believes in ghosts, fairies, aliens, the tooth fairy, or santa that it is "just a fantasy"? That is an honest question, not a rhetorical one. I have posed this question before, but you never answer it, instead choosing to pitch a fit about how I am insulting you with my question. When I make the comparison, it is to illuminate a point, the only way I know how. The point is that for some reason questioning someone's belief in god is "off limits" and "disrespectful" in a way that questioning someone's belief in literally anything else is not. Why is that?

You are fond of getting very self righteous about how we have all insulted and belittled you on this thread, but I don't see a single comment I have made that personally insulted you. All I have done is question your belief in god, which, according to you, is a personal insult. If you feel that your belief is beyond question, meaning that you are unwilling to entertain a discussion about whether or not god exists, that is no great loss to me.

 

[Brianwarnock]

Fire2Ice

You ask for reasoned debate and courtesy , you complain that you are treated differently to Mamafrica. Consider these quotes from your first post and you might stop complaining.

I find it funny that atheists believe in not believing so much that they feel the need to spread the gospel of their disbelief to others. For some reason it is important to them to convince others to not believe. Why? Did someone steal your cookie?

It's funny that a good portion of atheists probably believe in the existence of aliens or ghosts. None of that has ever been proven. Many atheists are probably conspiracy theorists, but none of that has ever been proven. How do they know these theories are true...they just do.

If you come on all guns blazing expect to get a bit of flak back.

Brian

 

[Alisa]

You people are way too clever for me! I will not even try to respond to questions, let alone go into a fierce discussion on the why’s and how’s. I simply stated what I believe. I did not intent to take the "hell fire and brimstone" approach - sorry if it came out that way. I have no intention of inflicting my beliefs on anyone. I'm simply giving my honest opinion. I've been following this thread for a while now, and I see non-believers making fun of believers, not the other way around. Even the jokes are in bad taste.

I am not a Christian because I was brainwashed. I choose to be a Christian. I want to be a Christian. I am also not a Christian because I'm scared I'll go to hell if I'm not. I hardly ever talk about the hell. I raise my children to be Christians – not out of fear, but love. And please, I’m not saying love is restricted to Christians! I look around me and see many non-Christians. I see goodness, I see love, I see success, happiness, peace…etc. So, yes. I agree 100%. Many good people do not believe. Many bad ones do.

I once asked a Muslim friend of mine if she has experienced any miracles. And she said yes, she has. How do I explain it? I cannot. Who am I to say the Hindu, Muslim or Buddhist have the “wrong” religion?

The only single thing I will say with conviction about others is that I believe an atheist will go to hell. I also think many so-called “Christians” are going to hell.

Everything I said here will probably be pulled apart and I will probably be ridiculed. So be it. I believe. That is it. Simple. I believe. VIVA GOD, JESUS and THE HOLY SPIRIT!

You say you do not intend to take the fire and brimstone approach, and then repeat your claim that atheists will go to hell. How is that not fire and brimstone?

You say that you are a Christian because you choose to be one, but if your parents told you that atheists go to hell while christians go to heaven when you were a child, I sincerely doubt there was much choice in the matter, just as I doubt that your children have any choice in the matter. Would you allow your children to pick a different religion or no religion at all? My guess is no, in which case, you are "inflicting your beliefs" upon your children. I personally find that much more offensive than any beliefs you may wish to inflict upon me.

 

[oumahexi]

Also, people like to question the bible (specifically the Old and New Testaments as I really don’t see anyone pointing out flaws in other religious writings) because of flaws in logic and such. I would like to point out that the bible, any religions writings, is the word of God written by man and later translated into our current understandings. The problem is that this is not a primary source. Although it contains the idea of God’s words, it doesn’t quite make as much sense as it would have if God wrote it Himself

Someone once gave me a book called Oaspe, as I was interested in UFO's http://users.sdccu.net/alahoy/oaspe.htm this truly takes the "religion" idea to extremes. The reason I site this writing is that it is, in my opinion, a prime example of how rediculous newer "religions" are becoming and possibly points toward why it is usually the older ones that people bother to discuss. Also, you do find that, generally, if a holy war is going to be fought, it will be the older religions that are at the front of it.

You don't hear of the Jehovah Witnesses or Latter Day Saints, or even the Scientologists declaring war on each other! Theirs is a quest for peace.

By the way, I dispute your theory that UFO's and ghosts are not proven. I think you'll find many more people have seen both than have ever seen God. Who's to say that, as Erik Von Danakin said in the seventies, God isn't an astronaught? Or that spiritualists, phsycics etc don't actually communicate with angels, spirit guides etc?

Finally, if your faith is strong, why do you worry about what other people think or say about it? A truely spiritual being does not believe in God, they know that it exists, and if that is true for you, why should you worry if other people don't agree?

 

[Alc]

By the way, I dispute your theory that UFO's and ghosts are not proven. I think you'll find many more people have seen both than have ever seen God.

While I'd disagree with at least 95% of what he/she has said - in spite of the reasonable way he/she says it - I think the existence of ghosts is far from having been proven. Plenty of people claim to have seen various things but that's hardly concrete evidence. Personally, I'd rate ghosts alongside God and goblins - good for stories, but too far fetched to be real.

UFOs, on the other hand, are - by definition - Unidentified. Anyone who's ever seen anything in the sky and couldn't say with 100% certainty what it was can perfectly reasonably claim to have seen a UFO. Does that mean it was an alien spaceship? No. Just means it they don't know what it was.

 

[Rabbie]

Fire2Ice

You complain that people don't treat you with respect. You don't make it easy for yourself when you come out with statements like

It's funny that a good portion of atheists probably believe in the existence of aliens or ghosts. None of that has ever been proven. Many atheists are probably conspiracy theorists, but none of that has ever been proven. How do they know these theories are true...they just do.

without any evidence to back them up. As an atheist who doesn't believe in Ghosts I find your attitude arrogant and disrespectful.

On Aliens I have an open mind. In a universe with so many galaxies each containing extremely large numbers of suns and planets it seems a little unlikely that life has only evolved on one. So far we have seen no evidence for extra-terrestial life but in the future who knows. I do not think that aliens prove or disprove the existence of God/gods because if you believe in God suely he could have created life on other distant planets so I am struggling to see the relevance of Aliens to this debate.

 

[Rich]

You don't hear of the Jehovah Witnesses or Latter Day Saints, or even the Scientologists declaring war on each other! Theirs is a quest for peace.

No but there's gonna be one hell of a scrap outside the pearly gates, because according to their own belief there isn't enough room for all the Jehovas' , let alone anybody else

 

[Rabbie]

No but there's gonna be one hell of a scrap outside the pearly gates, because according to their own belief there isn't enough room for all the Jehovas' , let alone anybody else

I have read that there are only 144000 places in Heaven. Kind of tough competition.
Of course if you believe in an All-knowing God He already knows who is going to get in so I guess it doesnt matter what you do. It's all been predetermined.

I am just glad I don't need to worry about the afterlife. It seems there's going to be a lot of disappointed religious people when the 144000 are told of their selection

 

[Mike375]

Of course if you believe in an All-knowing God He already knows who is going to get in so I guess it doesnt matter what you do. It's all been predetermined.

That is the one question that stops all people with the "conversion story".

If someone asked God 3000 years ago was I going to Heaven or Hell then he knows the answer. If I can change things then he did not know the answer.

 

[ShaneMan]

Is it disrespectful to tell someone who believes in ghosts, fairies, aliens, the tooth fairy, or santa that it is "just a fantasy"? That is an honest question, not a rhetorical one.

Since no one answered this question, Alisa, then I will take a shot at it. I don't know what the right word would be, disrespectful may be taking it to far, but I would think it would be at the very least, inconsiderate. If someone truly believes in one or all of the things you've listed, then why should it be so important to me to point out that they are "just a fantasy"? For me personally, I would rather keep my opinions to myself, find a subject that we could agree on and if they decided to approach the subject themselves and ask my opinion on it, I would hope from there that we could agree to disagree, agreeably.

 

[ShaneMan]

I have read that there are only 144000 places in Heaven. Kind of tough competition.
Of course if you believe in an All-knowing God He already knows who is going to get in so I guess it doesnt matter what you do. It's all been predetermined.

I am just glad I don't need to worry about the afterlife. It seems there's going to be a lot of disappointed religious people when the 144000 are told of their selection

Rabbie, don't really know that you are that interested in knowing but 144,000 is mentioned in prophecy in the New Testament but not in the way that this is being referenced and does not have anything to do with a number count of who goes to heaven.

 

[oumahexi]

While I'd disagree with at least 95% of what he/she has said - in spite of the reasonable way he/she says it - I think the existence of ghosts is far from having been proven. Plenty of people claim to have seen various things but that's hardly concrete evidence. Personally, I'd rate ghosts alongside God and goblins - good for stories, but too far fetched to be real.

Most people do disagree with the existence of ghosts. And I would totally agree that they should be placed alongside God and goblins, their existence has not yet been proven. However, it is a phenomenon that is so often encountered that many reputable universities now have a department dedicated to the study of it. Unlike the existence of God, they actually do have "hot spots" that they can visit and the measurement of electromagnetic fields in many of these spots does reveal a large fluctuation in energy that coincides with a sighting.

My interest is not, however, in the existence of the actual, nor the factual, but in how certain beliefs can directly affect the mind and how we both see and perceive the world around us. I find it interesting that certain psychics can actually penetrate something, whether it's the subconscious mind of their "client" or "the otherside" I am not sure. I have, myself, experienced times when I have been talking to someone and felt compelled to tell them something that I could not possibly have known. While I have been asked to work as a psychic on many occasions I refuse to for three reasons, firstly I don't know exactly where this information comes from or when it will come, and secondly, the vast majority of the psychics I have met in the past tend to clutch at straws and generalise when they don't get anything. Thirdly, I cannot put this phenomenon into a category, it could be that I'm just good at reading body language or sublime messages others put out.

UFOs, on the other hand, are - by definition - Unidentified. Anyone who's ever seen anything in the sky and couldn't say with 100% certainty what it was can perfectly reasonably claim to have seen a UFO. Does that mean it was an alien spaceship? No. Just means it they don't know what it was.

By the very definition, unidentified, they must then exist. Even if it's the 6.30 BA from Edinburgh to London, if you look up and see it and can't identify it...


Seriously though, I find it very difficult to believe that a universe the size of ours can possibly house only one planet that is capable of sustaining life as we know it. Not to mention life as we don't know it. And that's just the universe. There is a whole lot out there that we don't know about, as yet. I don't discount the ability to pass from one plane of existence to another. Actually, I don't discount very much, because I just don't know. I will keep on looking for answers though and if I ever find them, I'll let you know.

One thing I try not to do is to take everything I read literally without first passing it through my own thought processes to see if it is acceptable to my own level of intellegence. This includes everything from any bible to Alestair Crowley, any written account is merely the interpretation of another human.

 

[Rabbie]

Rabbie, don't really know that you are that interested in knowing but 144,000 is mentioned in prophecy in the New Testament but not in the way that this is being referenced and does not have anything to do with a number count of who goes to heaven.

I think I got the number 144000 from some Jehovah's Witness material I saw many years ago. It was being used as a count of those going to heaven. But then some religious sects are good at misquoting scripture when it suits them. From my perspective it is irrelevant as I don't think there is an after life.

By the very definition, unidentified, they must then exist. Even if it's the 6.30 BA from Edinburgh to London, if you look up and see it and can't identify it...

But I am sure that Air Traffic Control know exactly what it is.

 

[oumahexi]

But I am sure that Air Traffic Control know exactly what it is.

Ah, but can you be sure the air trafic controllers aren't aliens too

The thing is that some people will report something like that because they don't understand why the 6.30 has changed it's flight path...

 

[dan-cat]

They are the way they are because of the way in which and the materials out of which our universe formed.

Errrm no.

Materials are subject to natural laws they don't define them.

 

[Alc]

Materials are subject to natural laws...

Not exclusively, if we allow the God viewpoint.

If He created everything out of nothing, then wouldn't all material - at least once - have been totally exempt from natural laws.

If that was the case at the point of creation, who's to say it couldn't apply now?

 

[dan-cat]

Not exclusively, if we allow the God viewpoint.

If He created everything out of nothing, then wouldn't all material - at least once - have been totally exempt from natural laws.

If that was the case at the point of creation, who's to say it couldn't apply now?

Why couldn't the natural laws be created first and all material thereafter be subjected to them?