Are you an atheist?

[dan-cat]

With respect, that is not what you said, in fact you were implying that theists have to put the world to rights after atheists made a mess

Neither of you are getting it. I'm trying to explain it the best I can but it's just not happening.

The toybox was the belief in God. The matter of discussion, not the world.

It involves a little more empathy I guess to understand it.

Perhaps someone else can explain it better than I can...

 

[Rich]

Neither of you are getting it. I'm trying to explain it the best I can but it's just not happening.

The toybox was the belief in God. The matter of discussion, not the world.

It involves a little more empathy I guess to understand it.

Perhaps someone else can explain it better than I can...

OK. let me put this to you then, it was Atheists who had to pick up the pieces after the horrific events of two world wars, many of the theists having tossed aside theism during the horrors

 

[Alisa]

Neither of you are getting it. I'm trying to explain it the best I can but it's just not happening.

The toybox was the belief in God. The matter of discussion, not the world.

It involves a little more empathy I guess to understand it.

Perhaps someone else can explain it better than I can...

You are right, I am just not understanding the point. All I have grasped so far is that when an atheist questions a theist's belief in god, it somehow interferes with or damages their mindset, while the atheist suffers no ill effects. But I am just not getting where you are going with that.

 

[georgedwilkinson]

So we can dismiss the church as worthless for starters then?

Suits me. I'm surprised you hadn't already done that. But you'll do what you want regardless of my opinion, won't you?

 

[dan-cat]

But lots of things provide a sense of harmony. And that doesn't explain why they so vehemently defend their belief - if they would just admit, hey, I believe this because it makes me feel good, and you are right, god probably doesn't exist and there probably is some other explanation for the origin of the universe, then I would have nothing to argue about. But instead, many say, I believe this because it is true, because god really exists, and if you don't believe that god exists, you are going to hell (see previous posts on this thread). That is not about harmony.

When it comes to orthrodox Christianity, your best bet is to ask one about it and perhaps attempt to empathize.

From my perspective, it seems a bit absurd to believe that god really exists, yes.

You've repeated this many, many times.

As far as going home for tea untouched, you seem to be implying that this discussion is somehow bruising or injuring believers. If someone is so emotionally or mentally fragile that questioning their beliefs injures them, does that make it wrong to question their beliefs?

There is no wrong or right about it. The subject is intrinsically bound to the theist on a personal level, by definition. Your past couple of posts have tackled the supposed strength of character of theists to undermine the 'foundation' of belief. I don't really have the capacity to make it any clearer.

 

[Alisa]

When it comes to orthrodox Christianity, your best bet is to ask one about it and perhaps attempt to empathize.



You've repeated this many, many times.



There is no wrong or right about it. The subject is intrinsically bound to the theist on a personal level, by definition. Your past couple of posts have tackled the supposed strength of character of theists to undermine the 'foundation' of belief. I don't really have the capacity to make it any clearer.

You have definitely lost me now.

 

[dan-cat]

You are right, I am just not understanding the point. All I have grasped so far is that when an atheist questions a theist's belief in god, it somehow interferes with or damages their mindset, while the atheist suffers no ill effects. But I am just not getting where you are going with that.

I was trying to answer Alc's question about 'offense'.

 

[Alisa]

I was trying to answer Alc's question about 'offense'.

Yes I got that part. You seem to be saying that theists are so weak in their belief that when atheists question their belief they begin to doubt themselves, and that offends them.

 

[Alc]

I was trying to answer Alc's question about 'offense'.

..and he appreciates the effort, but admits to being a bit lost in the answer.

I'm still having trouble understanding how I could offend someone by suggesting that something they believe in doesn't exist.

I get that their beliefs are an integral part of them. Presumably, what I say doesn't change that? If not, where's the offence?

On the other hand, if what I say makes them question what they believe even slightly, there will be two possible outcomes
1) They 'convert' to atheism (or agnosticism). At worst, they lose the 'security' of knowing God exists.
2) They decide, after weighing up both sides, that they still believe in God, so their faith is stronger than ever.

If option 1 is true, I can see why they might be annoyed.
If option 2 is true, I think I deserve some thanks

Either way, where's the offensive behaviour on my part?

 

[Rich]

Suits me. I'm surprised you hadn't already done that.

I did many years ago

But you'll do what you want regardless of my opinion, won't you

I'm always interested in what others have to say, even if it's wrong

 

[dan-cat]

Yes I got that part. You seem to be saying that theists are so weak in their belief that when atheists question their belief they begin to doubt themselves, and that offends them.

I never said any such thing. You're actually starting to read your own opinions of theists into my postings. It is the constant barrage of 'questioning' by atheists on a personal topic, to no constructive end, that eventually leads the theist to question the motives of the atheist.

 

[Alisa]

I never said any such thing. You're actually starting to read your own opinions of theists into my postings. It is the constant barrage of 'questioning' by atheists on a personal topic, to no constructive end, that eventually leads the theist to question the motives of the atheist.

Reality exists independent of our personal perspective. When I question someone's belief in god, it is because I do not see how their belief coincides with reality. To me, determining the truth is a constructive end.

 

[dan-cat]

..and he appreciates the effort, but admits to being a bit lost in the answer.

No Worries

I'm still having trouble understanding how I could offend someone by suggesting that something they believe in doesn't exist.

To be honest if that's all you're doing then there really hasn't been much offense taken has there?

I get that their beliefs are an integral part of them. Presumably, what I say doesn't change that? If not, where's the offence?

It depends on how you say it and for what reasons you're doing it.

If you're likening an integral part of them to a 'spaghetti monster' for no other reason than to make that integral part of them look absurd then well...

On the other hand, if what I say makes them question what they believe even slightly, there will be two possible outcomes
1) They 'convert' to atheism (or agnosticism). At worst, they lose the 'security' of knowing God exists.

Which is nothing to you but traumatic for them

2) They decide, after weighing up both sides, that they still believe in God, so their faith is stronger than ever.

No, they get exactly the same as they came in with. Their belief. Basically a hiding to nothing.

Either way, where's the offensive behaviour on my part?

There isn't really. I'm just trying to illustrate to you the scope of offense that can be taken due to misinterpretation, lack of understanding, the personal nature of the topic at hand. The theist really gets nothing from the deal. They just get to defend what they have or lose it from attacks which often question their reasoning, intelligence, strength of character etc etc etc...

 

[dan-cat]

To me, determining the truth is a constructive end.

Then why do you dwell on a topic that appears evidently obvious to you to not supply it

What you are actually doing is determining what is not, not what is.

 

[oumahexi]

What am I, a horse?

More like a beautiful unicorn LOL

 

[Alc]

If you're likening an integral part of them to a 'spaghetti monster' for no other reason than to make that integral part of them look absurd then well...

Like I said before, I can fully see the comparison between the SM and the Bible, but not with God himself (itself?).

Which is nothing to you but traumatic for them

I don't know about 'nothing'. If my arguments were so convincing that I was able to de-religion somebody, I'd feel pretty pleased with my powers of persuasion

 

[Alisa]

Then why do you dwell on a topic that appears evidently obvious to you to not supply it

What you are actually doing is determining what is not, not what is.

Are you asking why I am participating in this discussion? Why does anybody hang out here?

Or are you asking why I bother to discuss this topic when it is obvious that most people will never change their opinion? Because I don't care about changing anyones opinion, I just think it is an interesting subject.

 

[Rich]

If my arguments were so convincing that I was able to de-religion somebody, I'd feel pretty pleased with my powers of persuasion

My teacher managed it at school by simply instilling the object of questioning with logic

 

[Alisa]

If you're likening an integral part of them to a 'spaghetti monster' for no other reason than to make that integral part of them look absurd then well...

Nobody is likening an integral part of anybody to any kind of pasta. The point of the spaghetti monster analogy is that you could "say" that literally anything you can imagine exists up there in the sky, and there would be no way to prove it, just as there is no way to prove that god exists. I think most everyone has already agreed on that one point, at least.

 

[georgedwilkinson]

I did many years ago

Then I think we both know where each other come from. I respect that.

I'm always interested in what others have to say, even if it's wrong

You're funny! Even though you take a lot of heat from other "conservative like" posters, I like you. I've even "famed" you, even though we're on opposite sides frequently.

Now, back to work. No time to argue when everybody's already made up their minds.