Are you an atheist? (3 Viewers)

[Mike375]

Mike, didn't we have this conversation about 1000 posts ago? Or am I imagining things?

It doesn't require a leap of faith to think something that is based on the odds is extremely likely.

To bring up Barry's point, if no one has ever come back from the dead, is it more likely that there is or isn't an afterlife? If god has never once popped up in all of human history, is it more likely that he exists or doesn't exist? You only need faith to make an assumption that is against the odds, i.e., there is an afterlife, or there is a god. You do not need faith to see that the odds are extremely long.

Think about it this way. If there were not a god, would we ever see him? The answer is an absolute no. Now what if there were a god, would we ever see him? The answer could be yes or no, right? So given the fact that we have never seen him, that indicates that the odds are in favor of possibility 1, there is no god. There is no "faith" involved in this type of evaluation, just simple common sense.

Alisa,

As an atheist you need to distinguish between people who are believers in a God (from whatever religion type) and people like myself who think some type of superbeing exists. Belief in a superbeing or superbeings is not necessarily religious based and hence an after life is not a required part of the equation.

If you can prove to me that there is no after life then that would not change my views on superbeings. If there was an after life then that would indicate to me that there are several levels of superbeings since the one that kicked off the universe would be unlikely to be fiddling about with humans.

 

[redneckgeek]

...maybe he was the messiah...

Can we not bring Barack Obama into the conversation

 

[Alc]

Can we not bring Barack Obama into the conversation

You'll have to explain that one?

 

[Alisa]

Alisa,

As an atheist you need to distinguish between people who are believers in a God (from whatever religion type) and people like myself who think some type of superbeing exists. Belief in a superbeing or superbeings is not necessarily religious based and hence an after life is not a required part of the equation.

If you can prove to me that there is no after life then that would not change my views on superbeings. If there was an after life then that would indicate to me that there are several levels of superbeings since the one that kicked off the universe would be unlikely to be fiddling about with humans.

What is the difference between god and a superbeing? I wasn't saying that believing an afterlife is related to believing in god, those were two separate examples of things that require faith to believe because there are such long odds of being true. If you would like to put superbeings in a third and separate category, I won't argue with you. The odds against there being a superbeing are just as long as the odds against there being a god.

I think I realize why you keep claiming why you need faith NOT to believe in a god or superbeing though. It is because you don't think it is a realistic possibility that the universe and the earth and life, etc, came about through some natural process with no divine intervention.

While I also think it is completely beyond my comprehension that all of this somehow happened, I also recognize the smallness of our brains and the weakness of our comprehension skills. It is completely conceivable to me that we either haven't figured it out yet, or that we never will figure it out. This is a perfectly realistic possibility for me, and is infinitely more likely to be the case than your case, which eliminates all complexity and mystery and says, well I can't understand how this happened without a designer, therefore, there was a designer.

 

[Alisa]

Can we not bring Barack Obama into the conversation

I think you've got your threads mixed up - the Obama thread is over in the politics forum. Have fun over there!

 

[Pauldohert]

To bring up Barry's point, if no one has ever come back from the dead, is it more likely that there is or isn't an afterlife? You only need faith to make an assumption that is against the odds, i.e., there is an afterlife, or there is a god. You do not need faith to see that the odds are extremely long.

I bet you have never seen anybody come back from being buried dead in the ground for 100 years either.

Presumably noone has ever been buried dead in the ground for 100 years then? Or its at least very unlikely?

 

[Alisa]

I bet you have never seen anybody come back from being buried dead in the ground for 100 years either.

Presumably noone has ever been buried dead in the ground for 100 years then? Or its at least very unlikely?

Yep, it is very unlikely, if not impossible, that someone could be buried dead for 100 years and come back alive.

 

[Alc]

I bet you have never seen anybody come back from being buried dead in the ground for 100 years either.

Presumably noone has ever been buried dead in the ground for 100 years then? Or its at least very unlikely?

I didn't see the connection here, either.

I'm not arguing that an afterlife exists or that people return from the dead (I don't believe in either), but I don't think that the two need to depend on each other. What if there were an afterlife, and it was just a one-way ticket?

 

[Pauldohert]

Yep, it is very unlikely, if not impossible, that someone could be buried dead for 100 years and come back alive.

That wasn't what I asked.

What if there were an afterlife, and it was just a one-way ticket?

Precisely - Alisa is happy to believe that being dead is a one way ticket, and belive that being dead is real. Why is she not having that an afterlife could be a oneway ticket and an afterlife real?
That noone has come back from either doesn't make them unreal.

 

[Alc]

Precisely - Alisa is happy to believe that being dead is a one way ticket, and belive that being dead is real. Why is she not having that an afterlife could be a oneway ticket and an afterlife real?
That noone has come back from either doesn't make them unreal.

Thanks, I thought I'd misunderstood.

I don't believe in an afterlife.
I don't believe in people coming back from the dead.
That doesn't mean that I don't believe in the one because I don't believe in the other.

 

[Alisa]

That wasn't what I asked.



Precisely - Alisa is happy to believe that being dead is a one way ticket, and belive that being dead is real. Why is she not having that an afterlife could be a oneway ticket and an afterlife real?
That noone has come back from either doesn't make them unreal.

Ok, you must have missed the post where I just explained my reasoning, so I will repeat:
Lets assume for the sake of argument that there is not an afterlife: Would anyone ever come back if this were true? No. Now lets assume that there is an afterlife. Would anyone ever come back if this were true? Maybe. Now given that no-one has ever come back, the odds are in favor of the first possibility, not the second. Get it?

 

[Alc]

Ok, you must have missed the post where I just explained my reasoning, so I will repeat:
Lets assume for the sake of argument that there is not an afterlife: Would anyone ever come back if this were true? No. Now lets assume that there is an afterlife. Would anyone ever come back if this were true? Maybe. Now given that no-one has ever come back, the odds are in favor of the first possibility, not the second. Get it?

But you later said
"if no one has ever come back from the dead, is it more likely that there is or isn't an afterlife?"
What does coming back from the dead have to with whether or not there is an afterlife?

If you'd said
"if no one has ever seen anyone come back from the dead, is it more likely that there was a resurrection?"
that would have made more sense, wouldn't it?

 

[MammAfrica]

I (also) said I'm not going to post again, but....

Do you think ants know there are beings more intelligent than them, or do you think they think they are at the top of the chain?

 

[Mike375]

What is the difference between god and a superbeing?

God as in God would be regarded as the top dog in town and with a special relationship with humans. A god as in "god" is a non specific one or one of several but would also include a relationship with humans. So believers in God or god would normally be expected to believe in an after life and the various other things associated with different religions.

A superbeing is just that. Given the size of the universe I find it virtually impossible to believe that man is the highest form of life. As I have mentioned before our DNA and the chimps are supposed to be about 99% the same. However, the gap between us and the chimp is a million times greater than the chimp and the lizard. So what would life forms above us be like??

If you would like to put superbeings in a third and separate category, I won't argue with you. The odds against there being a superbeing are just as long as the odds against there being a god.

I think I realize why you keep claiming why you need faith NOT to believe in a god or superbeing though. It is because you don't think it is a realistic possibility that the universe and the earth and life, etc, came about through some natural process with no divine intervention.

For me the odds are better that this whole show was kicked of by a superbeing than some natural process. The top end of science in this field such as Hawking and Co are virtually saying the same thing when they say physics ceases to exist pre Big Bang.

While I also think it is completely beyond my comprehension that all of this somehow happened, I also recognize the smallness of our brains and the weakness of our comprehension skills. It is completely conceivable to me that we either haven't figured it out yet, or that we never will figure it out. This is a perfectly realistic possibility for me, and is infinitely more likely to be the case than your case, which eliminates all complexity and mystery and says, well I can't understand how this happened without a designer, therefore, there was a designer.

It is quite possible that there will be a branch of science that will provide the answer. Just imagine if in 1800 and alien arrived on earth and detonated a hydrogen bomb and shifted a mountain. There would be no science of the day that would even come close to what happened.

So I have considered things from your side of the debate. However, I have the feeling that science is already at the "core" and we won't see changes comparable to black blasting powder and a nuclear bomb.

As to your "complexity and mystery", from my viewing point a superbeing would top the charts for that one....what will he/she/it do next

 

[Alc]

I (also) said I'm not going to post again, but....

Do you think ants know there are beings more intelligent than them, or do you think they think they are at the top of the chain?

I don't believe ants have any concept of being at the top or bottom of a 'chain'. I think they operate mainly on instinct, with some rudimentary reasoning skills.

[Edit] After checking, the whole ant-to-human comparison was brought up by Mike375, way back in post #14.

 

[Pauldohert]

Ok, you must have missed the post where I just explained my reasoning, so I will repeat:
Lets assume for the sake of argument that there is not an afterlife: Would anyone ever come back if this were true? No. Now lets assume that there is an afterlife. Would anyone ever come back if this were true? Maybe. Now given that no-one has ever come back, the odds are in favor of the first possibility, not the second. Get it?

Lets assume there is an afterlife - where the return jouney to be mortal does not exist.

The fact that nooene has made the return journey tells you nothing at at about the probability of there being this afterlife.

I think your flawed logic leads you to the wrong conclusion.

 

[Alc]

Lets assume there is an afterlife - where the return jouney to be mortal does not exist.

The fact that nooene has made the return journey tells you nothing at at about the probability of there being an afterlife.

Doesn't it make the probability 50/50?

 

[Pauldohert]

Doesn't it make the probability 50/50?

If that was the probabilty before Alisa applied her idea, thats still the probabilty after she finished.

 

[Alc]

If that was the probabilty before Alisa applied her idea, thats still the probabilty after she finished.

Agreed.

Resurrection, however, must have much lower odds, bordering on the negligible (unless those coming back are already buried, so don't get seen).

 

[Mike375]

Doesn't it make the probability 50/50?

Actually, if there is an after life the odds are virtually 100% that no one is coming back because it is an after life......another place, another time etc.