Are you an atheist? (2 Viewers)

[Galaxiom]

O ye of little faith! Remember where you are, the holy liquid will always taste of the faithfulls favourite and also be ice cold to tepid also according to taste.

Oh the glory. But will it be a a chardonnay too if that is my desire at the time?

 

[Brianwarnock]

I understand from the stories from the prophet JBB that it is a beer volcano, He makes no mention of wine of indeed that amber nectar Malt Whisky, perhaps we should pray.

 

[Dick7Access]

No it isn't history. There is no mention of Christ until Josephus "Antiquities of the Jews" in c 93 CE. He hadn't even been born when the the resurrection was supposed to have occurred.
If you are comfortable with that, I am comfortable with you, each to their own. I just down have enough faith to believe that we came from a big bang. If I am here someone had to create me. If someone created me and expected anything of he me, he had to tell me. If he told me he had to prove it. He came he died, He resurrected. If I ever get enough faith I will join you guys. Of course if you guys are right I will never know, will I?

 

[Rabbie]

No it isn't history. There is no mention of Christ until Josephus "Antiquities of the Jews" in c 93 CE. He hadn't even been born when the the resurrection was supposed to have occurred.
If you are comfortable with that, I am comfortable with you, each to their own. I just down have enough faith to believe that we came from a big bang. If I am here someone had to create me. If someone created me and expected anything of he me, he had to tell me. If he told me he had to prove it. He came he died, He resurrected. If I ever get enough faith I will join you guys. Of course if you guys are right I will never know, will I?

It just shows that if you tell the same lie often enough some people will believe it.

Especially if you punish people for not believing.

 

[Dick7Access]

It just shows that if you tell the same lie often enough some people will believe it.

Especially if you punish people for not believing.


I see no lies. I have not the time now to look up all the reference I studied that associate the resurrection with history, not just the Bible, nor the inclination, as I have no desire to convince anybody.

That is very interesting, as I have never punished anybody for not believing nor am I associated with anybody that would advocate punishing anybody. Everybody has to believe something. If some believe that there is no creator that is fine with me, have at it. My life is happy; I am fulfill helping who I can. If I am wrong I will never know, I will turn to dust. In one sense I almost envy the non-believer for such strong faith in the big bang.

 

[Rabbie]

It just shows that if you tell the same lie often enough some people will believe it.

Especially if you punish people for not believing.


I see no lies. I have not the time now to look up all the reference I studied that associate the resurrection with history, not just the Bible, nor the inclination, as I have no desire to convince anybody.

That is very interesting, as I have never punished anybody for not believing nor am I associated with anybody that would advocate punishing anybody. Everybody has to believe something. If some believe that there is no creator that is fine with me, have at it. My life is happy; I am fulfill helping who I can. If I am wrong I will never know, I will turn to dust. In one sense I almost envy the non-believer for such strong faith in the big bang.

I was not suggesting that you have punished anyone for not believing. I was in fact referring to organised religion over the centuries that has murdered many people solely for their refusal to accept some point of doctrine even where that doctrine is not even based on the bible.

 

[Lightwave]

Never really going to understand religion I've kind of stopped even trying.

Here's some Russian orthodox worshipping a chair that someone holy died in.

http://englishrussia.com/2012/07/05/worshipping-the-chair/

 

[Dick7Access]

I was not suggesting that you have punished anyone for not believing. I was in fact referring to organised religion over the centuries that has murdered many people solely for their refusal to accept some point of doctrine even where that doctrine is not even based on the bible.

How true that is!! That is something I despise, religion that wants to stifle, control, and yes even kill in the name of God.
When I am trying to help people, I first ask if they believe the Bible. If they don’t believe the Bible there is nothing I can do for them. I am most times not interested in trying to convince them that there is a God and that the Bible is the word of God. I am not mean or rude to them, but I can’t help them. I was on the road a lot preaching, until my wife had her leg amputated, and not at my home church much. They however have a program called “Reformers’ Unanimous”. They help people who have addictions turn their life around with principle from the Bible. We have so many that are living fruitful and productive lives that even if we/they believed the Bible was not of God, we/they would continue to use it. One time in the military I we were on maneuvers my tent mate taught young boys Sunday school. I then find out he claimed to be an atheist. I said then why are you teaching from the Bible? He said because even though there is no God, and even though the bible was written by man, its principles work. Now I am sure he like lots of Christians picked and choose what verses he used.

 

[Dick7Access]

Never really going to understand religion I've kind of stopped even trying.

Here's some Russian orthodox worshipping a chair that someone holy died in.

http://englishrussia.com/2012/07/05/worshipping-the-chair/

Weird huh!

 

[Adam Caramon]

That is very interesting, as I have never punished anybody for not believing nor am I associated with anybody that would advocate punishing anybody.

This is a good first step for any believer to take. In my experience, however, most believers, even when they tolerate non-believers or believers of another faith, they don't accept them.

For example, I have a co-worker who is basically a typical mom, 2 kids, husband, working for a better life, etc, etc. She is a Catholic, though like most religious people, knows very little about what's in the bible.

She and I had a discussion about politics at one point, and she stated that she could never vote for an atheist. She has been taught from a young age that being an atheist equates to having no morals. She actually joking refers to me as following Satan.

While this is good-natured joking between co-workers, it also speaks to a separation in her mind. Religious people on one side, and non-religious people on the other. In her mind, we're not the same. She is uncomfortable with her children learning about non-belief or those individuals that don't go to church.

It all revolves around control. She has been convinced that religion is a positive thing, and anyone who is religious and performs horrendous acts are just crazy. She doesn't see an association between the way the Roman Catholic Church operates and the fact that there are a large number of pedophiles in their ranks.

Logically, we can look and see that anytime you tell a large group of men that they can't have sex, there's going to be some issues. It just isn't natural.

But because she learned these things when she was young and impressionable, they are indelibly stuck in her mind. And anyone that tries to break through that barrier with statistics, facts, logic, etc will see her logical mind shut down and the religious defensive mechanism kick in.

Its like a deluded person that jumps through hoops to protect the delusions that their mind creates. They aren't doing it intentionally, it occurs from subliminal indoctrination that occurred many years past.

 

[Dick7Access]

Its like a deluded person that jumps through hoops to protect the delusions that their mind creates. They aren't doing it intentionally, it occurs from subliminal indoctrination that occurred many years past.


for some this is true. I don't include myself.

 

[Dick7Access]

I like what a preacher once said when asked if he was one of those narrow mind people that think that only the people in his religion are going to heaven. He answered and said I am even more narrow minded then that, I don’t even think all of our people are going to heaven.

 

[Galaxiom]

I can actually accept that some people cherish the idea of a creator behind all this. What ever floats your boat. A philosophical model doesn't have to be true to return good outcomes. An number of models that I use make some assumptions but I continue to use them for the benefit of my consciousness.

However I fail to comprehend the mentality that considers the Bible as a the work of an advanced consciousness. An objective read of it is a jaw-dropping experience for most of those who can get past the hypnotic drivel in Genesis and read Joshua where the true nature of this philosophy is bared naked. (I sincerely urge every reader, you must read Joshua. I could not put it down.)

Even this kind of bizarre thought I can accept as a person's choice but religion goes way too far when the lunatics attempt to take over the asylum and dictate public policy based on their arbitrary and profoundly subjective doctrine.

 

[Dick7Access]

Galaxiom,
What is religion?

 

[aziz rasul]

I believe it was earlier in this thread that you were explaining how the Arabic language has changed through the years.

I don’t remember saying that.

Guess there's a few more than 72?

Not sure that the different dominations would be categorised as sects though.

Sure, but what I interpret out of that and what you interpret are likely to be different. This is what I meant by saying that all scriptures can be interpreted in different ways. The language is ambiguous due to several factors.

But the context of the verse is that of the present type of mankind, that’s why I gave the other verses to show the difference. Also the Arabic uses the naas, representing us. Anyway, we can agree to disagree.

Its not always about honesty. People are a collection of their life experiences and their upbringings. We all have different perceptions. I would be willing to bet I could find Muslims that interpret parts of the Qur'an differently than you do. Who's right? You would say you are, and they would say they are.

How do we place an objective value on who's more likely correct? Do we look at the amount of formal education the person has in theology? Do we look at how many years experience the person has spent studying the religion, the holy books, etc?

Tell me how we OBJECTIVELY determine that, and I will find you evidence of someone who is "better" than you that disagrees with at least some of your interpretations.

But if the majority of Muslim scholars interpret a verse in one particular way then that is what most Muslims will mostly adhere to. Of course there will be differences of opinion about everything. You use your own intellect as well.

The majority of Muslim scholars say that usury is wrong in Islam, but I hear from a few ordinary Muslims it’s not. Who should I follow?

The same applies to other religions where most adherents follow their scholars based on majority opinion.

However one does not require a doctrine to have respect for one's parents. My children are entirely without religion and hold their parents in the highest regard. They do not comply with orders to do so from me or a holy book at pain of great suffering promised by a deity.

You were very vehement against the Qur’an. I have demonstrated that you at least accept that verse so your initial views of the Qur’an had to be wrong as I knew they would be.

The revelation of the Scripture is from Allah, the Mighty, the Wise. 39:1

Do we find verses in the Qur'an imploring the devotee to treat their children with same respect they give they would have for their parents?

Do you have any Qur’anic verses to the contrary?

The Qur'an clearly is extremely prejudiced against women. Again without religion the relationship between me and my wife is one of equals just as it is between my children and their partners. Our children also show great respect to their children who also adopt the position of respecting both parents and grandparents. A far healthier condition for all and not a religious doctrine in sight.

This is from someone who initially clearly rejected the entire Qur’an but now agrees with a verse in the Qur’an. If you have any Qur’anic verses in mind, then quote them. Here’s some verses for you.

Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has Faith, verily, to him will We give a new Life, a life that is good and pure and We will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions.
Qur’an – Surah an-Nahl (The Bee) 16:97 See also 40:40.

For Muslim men and women, - for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allaah's praise, - for them has Allaah prepared forgiveness and great reward.
Qur’an - Surah al-Ahzaab (The Clans) 33:35

This is the position adopted by every dictator in history.

OK, then prove me wrong from the verse I gave. Just making the statement you make above is just vague and is no point of argument.

I didn’t become a Christian until years later.

Did Jesus (peace be upon him) declare that he was the begotten son of God or that we should worship him? Just kinda curious that’s all. I know the answer to these questions, just interested as a Christian what you think?

Does not the resurrection prove His existence?

Jesus (peace be upon him) wasn’t crucified in the first place. So how could he be resurrected?

54. And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allaah too planned, and the best of planners is Allaah.
55. Behold! Allaah said: “O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
56. “As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help.”
57. “As to those who believe and work righteousness, Allaah will pay them (in full) their reward; but Allaah loveth not those who do wrong.”
Qur’an - Surah al-`Imraan (The Family of `Imraan) 3:54-7 See also 3:90.

157. That they said (in boast), “We killed Messiah Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allaah”; - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not: -
158. Nay, Allaah raised him up unto Himself; and Allaah is Exalted in Power, Wise; -
Qur’an - Surah an-Nisaa’ (The Women) 4:157-158

Correct me if I’m wrong, but did Jesus (peace be upon him) have any marks of crucifiction after the supposed crucifiction?

Moreover there is absolutely no contemporary evidence that Christ even existed at all. Quite remarkable that nobody thought his accomplishments were worth mentioning.

What rubbish.

Mohammed responded by creating a new religion

Again you are spouting nonsense.

But those who believe in Allaah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of them, unto them Allaah will give their wages; and Allaah was ever Forgiving, Merciful.
Qur’an - Surah an-Nisaa’ (The Women) 4:152

“I am most close to Jesus, son of Mary, among the whole of mankind in this worldly life and the next life. They said: Allaah's Messenger how is it? Thereupon he said: Prophets are brothers in faith, having different mothers. Their religion is, however, one and there is no Apostle between us (between I and Jesus Christ).”
A saying of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) - Sahih Muslim Book 30, Number 5836

 

[Rabbie]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but did Jesus (peace be upon him) have any marks of crucifiction after the supposed crucifiction?

In the "Acts of the Apostles" Thomas queries whether the resurrected Jesus has any signs of the crucifiction. After seeing and touching the wounds he is convinced it is the crucified and resurrected Jesus

 

[aziz rasul]

Prophets of Allaah, as Mentioned in the Qur’an

Adam (first prophet of Islam)
Idris (Enoch)
Nuh (Noah)
Hud (Heber - great great grandson of Nuh)
Salih (Shelah)
Ibrahim (Abraham)
[Received the Souhouf (the Scrolls) in Hebrew]
Isma’il (Ishmael – eldest son of Ibrahim)
Is’haq (Isaac – youngest son of Ibrahim)
Lut (Lot – nephew of Ibrahim)
Ya’qub (Jacob – son of Is’haq)
Yusuf (Joseph – second youngest son of Ya’qub)
Shu’aib (Jethro)
Ayub (Job)
Musa (Moses)
[Received the Taurat (the Torah or the Law) & the Ten Commandments both in Hebrew]
Harun (Aaron – elder brother of Musa)
Dhu’l-kifl (Ezekiel)
Dawud (David)
[Received the Zabur (the Psalms) in Hebrew]
Suliman (Solomon – son of Dawud)
Ilias (Elias)
Al-Yasa (Elisha)
Yunus (Jonah)
Zakariyah (Zechariah)
Yahya (John – son of Zakariyah)
Isa (Jesus – son of Mary)
[Received the Injil, in Aramaic]
Muhammad (the Seal of the Prophets)
[Received the Qur’an, in Arabic]
(Peace and Allaah’s blessings be upon them all)

 

[aziz rasul]

Frequency of Prophets names in the Qur’an

Musa – 138
Ibrahim - 75
Yusuf – 36
Lut - 27
Adam, Isa, Nuh – 25
Suliman – 22
Harun – 20
Dawud, Is’haq – 17
Ya’qub – 16
Shu’aib – 11
Salih – 10
Hud, Isma’il, Zakariyah – 7
Yahya – 5
Ayub, Yunus, Muhammad – 4
Al-Yasa, Idris, Dhu’l-kifl – 2
Ilias - 1
(Peace and Allaah’s blessings be upon them all)

The prophets marked in red received scripture. Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is mentioned by name, in the Qur’an, four times i.e. 3:144, 33.40, 47:2 and 48:29. He is referred to by his title as a prophet more than 270 times. Chapter 47 in the Qur’an itself is named Muhammad. Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is also addressed by God directly in the Qur’an by the word qul (Say). God is instructing his Messenger to give the message to the people, in particular to unbelievers, as God does not address the unbelievers directly.

 

[Adam Caramon]

Not sure that the different dominations would be categorised as sects though.

Could you list the 72 sects of Christianity then?

But if the majority of Muslim scholars interpret a verse in one particular way then that is what most Muslims will mostly adhere to. Of course there will be differences of opinion about everything. You use your own intellect as well.

You continually miss the point. Of course, there is going to be differences in interpretations. That's human nature. Much like it is human nature to try to control other humans (which is the purpose of religion).

If you believe you must follow the Qur'an, then if there is a difference in interpretation, then some Muslims are not following the Qur'an 100%. Does your god give partial credit for following most of the Qur'an, or for giving it your best effort?

If there is even 1 error in your interpretation of the Qur'an, then you're not a "good" Muslim, as you're not following the supposedly inerrant dictates of your god.

Therefore, as you seem to agree that there is difference between what educated, intelligent Muslims agree on in regards to the Muslim, how can you think that you have the 100% correct interpretation?

Remember, you said:

It’s not a case of if. I am right.

Logically, these two positions do not connect.

 

[aziz rasul]

Could you list the 72 sects of Christianity then?

No as the hadith in which Muhammad (peace be upon him) tells us this, did not mention the deviant sects.

You continually miss the point. Of course, there is going to be differences in interpretations.

Isn’t that what I said when I made the comment ‘Of course there will be differences of opinion about everything. You use your own intellect as well.’

Much like it is human nature to try to control other humans (which is the purpose of religion).

God has given us free will in Islam.

There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allaah hath grasped a firm handhold, which will never break. Allaah is Hearer, Knower.
Qur’an - Surah al-Baqara (The Heifer) 2:256

If you believe you must follow the Qur'an, then if there is a difference in interpretation, then some Muslims are not following the Qur'an 100%. Does your god give partial credit for following most of the Qur'an, or for giving it your best effort?

If there is even 1 error in your interpretation of the Qur'an, then you're not a "good" Muslim, as you're not following the supposedly inerrant dictates of your god.

Therefore, as you seem to agree that there is difference between what educated, intelligent Muslims agree on in regards to the Muslim, how can you think that you have the 100% correct interpretation?

Judgement by God on the Day of Judgement will be based on intentions, so if someone interprets a verse unintentionally and carries it out, then he is not liable for punishment. Conversely if a Muslim interprets a verse incorrectly knowing that the interpretation is wrong, then they will be judged accordingly.

Logically, these two positions do not connect.

I think your mixing two different things. When I say I’m right, I’m simply saying that I have absolute faith in Allaah and in His Prophet (peace be upon him) of Islam. Praise be to Allaah, the Creator.