Are you an atheist?

[Galaxiom]

It is interesting that you should bring that up. Recently on a radio talk show the moderator brought up a survey that had been done on just that subject. Liberals like restaurants better than had menus like Wendy’s that you picked No.1, or No.2 so that they did have to make any choices, and the conservatives like subway better where you have to choose yourself what to put on the bread and even had to pick your own bread. Liberals like the government to pick what insurance they have to have, what, what size soft drink to buy, what vegetables you should eat. conservatives doesn’t want government getting into their personal choices.

Did you know that seven out of ten claims are simly made up from nothing.

Conservatives prefer phone-in surveys where they can count on loud-mouth rednecks to take the time to give their opinion. Consequently the results usually agree with their prejudices.

Liberals know that such surveys are completley worthless.

 

[ChrisO]

With regard to the religious interpretation of the omnipotent being, the writings of mankind are not right or wrong, they are irrelevant.
To quote them, both fore and against, is also irrelevant.

We may perceive the omnipotent being.
We may remove ourselves from the city lights, lie on our back and look into the clear night sky.
Our perception of it can only be enhanced by our knowledge of it.

It is the universe for as far as all may perceive.

 

[Dick7Access]

Did you know that seven out of ten claims are simly made up from nothing.

Conservatives prefer phone-in surveys where they can count on loud-mouth rednecks to take the time to give their opinion. Consequently the results usually agree with their prejudices.

Liberals know that such surveys are completley worthless.

That’s good, I like that. I had a professor in college that his favorite saying covered that point well. It depends whose ox is being gored!!

 

[ChrisO]

The behaviour of people ultimately becomes unpalatable to most.

Circa 1970, B. F. Skinner wrote a book “Beyond Freedom and Dignity”

To me, that book came down to this…
Behavioural psychologist came from three backgrounds:-
Those that believed all behaviour was inherited.
Those that believed all behaviour was environmental.
Those that believed all behaviour was a combination of both.

Nowhere in the above three is there any other source of behaviour.
We all become the total of the product of external influences.
Nowhere in the human mind is there a place to call our own.

Nowhere in the human mind is there a place that is devoid of external influences which, by its very nature of being isolated from external events, becomes a totally self ordering system.

It can become even more unpalatable than that.
If there was an internal place to call our own, somewhere in our mind that was totally isolated from external events but ordering itself, then that place would violate the second law of thermodynamics.

No trivia here please, after more than forty years I’m still undecided.

Chris.

 

[RainLover]

We are the Sum Total of all our previous thoughts.

 

[rodmc]

We are the Sum Total of all our previous thoughts.

is there a query for that then?

 

[bigalpha]

I don't see why there HAS to be a God (or other all-powerful force).

 

[Alc]

I don't see why there HAS to be a God (or other all-powerful force).

I agree, but if you could in some way prove or disprove that statement, there would end the discussion.

As I see it, until such time as someone can suggest a plausible reason for God (whichever one) having created everything, I'll be unable to believe everything was deliberately created.

I was cornered by a Christian on a bus, many years ago, who started in with the old, flawed 'you find a watch on a beach argument' and when I said the difference between the watch and universe as a whole was that the watchmaker had purpose in mind when he created it, the best he could come up with was the old fallback along the lines of it not being for us to understand why God does things. Sorry, not good enough.

Blind faith and twisting the evidence to match what I want to think doesn't swing it for me, or I'd believe in all sorts of things for which there are no proof (I'd genuinely love to think that dragons, as depicted in stories, were real, but based on everything I know, I don't see how they can be).

 

[bigalpha]

Even if you came up with some 'proof' that God didn't exist - I don't think the very religious folks would accept it. Since God can work miracles; since God has been and always will be; since we can't understand God; since God can do magic, there's no reason that the religious can't simply say "God wanted us to think he doesn't exist".

 

[Alc]

Exactly. There's little to actually be gained in trying to debate the existence or otherwise of God, as there's no proof to satisy one side of the argument and no way that a lack of proof will be taken as satisfactory by the other.

 

[bigalpha]

Exactly. There's little to actually be gained in trying to debate the existence or otherwise of God, as there's no proof to satisy one side of the argument and no way that a lack of proof will be taken as satisfactory by the other.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

 

[Adam Caramon]

Exactly. There's little to actually be gained in trying to debate the existence or otherwise of God, as there's no proof to satisy one side of the argument and no way that a lack of proof will be taken as satisfactory by the other.

Generally I agree. However, there are some people that are not totally committed to their religion. They may have doubts based on scientific discoveries, or the lack of observable miracles, using common sense, etc. I'd like to think debates like these would engage them to further research and seek answers.

In addition, for those people living in fiercely religious areas, these debates may provide a level of sanity for them.

I truly believe that the more of a spotlight that is shined on religion around the world, the more it will recede to live in the shadows. These discussions/debates enhance that spotlight.

Who knows how many hundreds (perhaps thousands) of people have read parts of this very thread which got their mind in gear. And this is only 1 site not even dedicated to religion.

 

[Alc]

I meant the debate here, as it just goes round in circles, but I hadn't thought of your last point. I've been sent here by Google for many unrelated topics.

 

[aziz rasul]

You really are incredibly arrogant. I didn't say I accepted the verse about respecting parents or anything else in the Qur'an. Indeed I don't accept that one should automatically respect one's parents. I know of several parents who are completely unworthy of respect.

Whether one or both of them attain old age in thy life, say not to them a word of contempt, nor repel them, but address them in terms of honour. Qur’an - Surah al-Isra (The Night Journey) 17:23 See also 2:83.

If you agree with the principle of respecting parents, then you cannot reject the Qur'an completely if there is a verse which you indirectly agree with. And of course there will be other verses that I am sure you will agree with indirectly. Australia have laws that are enshrined in the Qur'an, Australia like all countries around the world are agreed that there are certain principles of sharia that man should follow.

Oh and your charge regarding my arrogance. There were many arrogant people during the time of the last Prophet (peace be upon him) and even before then as there are now. They also rejected God and His Scriptures.

Or should say, when it seeth the doom: Oh, that I had but a second chance that I might be among the righteous!

(But now the answer will be): Nay, for My revelations came unto thee, but thou didst deny them and wast scornful and wast among the disbelievers. Sura 39 Verse 58

It is said (unto them): Enter ye the gates of hell to dwell therein. Thus hapless is the journey's end of the scorners. Sura 39 Verse 72

Do you have any verses that tell us to respect children? Seems like a significant ommission from a book that is supposed to tell us what is important.

They consult thee concerning women. Say: Allah giveth you decree concerning them, and the Scripture which hath been recited unto you giveth decree), concerning female orphans and those unto whom ye give not that which is ordained for them though ye desire to marry them, and (concerning) the weak among children, and that ye should deal justly with orphans. Whatever good ye do, lo! Allah is ever
Aware of it. 4.127

Slay not your children, fearing a fall to poverty, We shall provide for them and for you. Lo! the slaying of them is great sin. 17.031

You can quote all the rubbish you like but the undeniable fact remains that the Qur'an is profoundly prejudiced against women.

That's just a statement. No evidence to give I see.
Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has Faith, verily, to him will We give a new Life, a life that is good and pure and We will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions.
Qur’an – Surah an-Nahl (The Bee) 16:97 See also 40:40.

For Muslim men and women, - for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allaah's praise, - for them has Allaah prepared forgiveness and great reward.
Qur’an - Surah al-Ahzaab (The Clans) 33:35

Go ahead and provide evidence for your claim then. Simply name the contemporary book/s that mention Christ. The onus is on you to back your claim since obviously it is not possible to provide absolute evidence that no such texts exist while it should be easy for you to defend your claim by naming them.

I know what you will provide. It will be more quotes from the Qur'an becuase you are completely deluded. Obviously the Qur'an is not such evidence since it was not written until many centuries later.

You bet I'm going to quote the Qur'an much as you hate it. I just love quoting from the Qur'an.

And who doth greater wrong than he who telleth a lie against Allah, and denieth the truth when it reacheth him ? Will not the home of disbelievers be in hell?

And whoso bringeth the truth and believeth therein - Such are the dutiful.

They shall have what they will of their Lord's bounty. That is the reward of the good:

That Allah will remit from them the worst of what they did, and will pay them for reward the best they used to do. 39.32-5

Lo! We have revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture for mankind with truth. Then whosoever goeth right it is for his soul, and whosoever strayeth, strayeth only to its hurt. And thou art not a warder over them. 039.041

Say: O Allah! Creator of the heavens and the earth! Knower of the Invisible and the Visible! Thou wilt judge between Thy slaves concerning that wherein they used to differ. 039.046


45. Behold! The angels (malaika) said: “O Mary! Allaah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Messiah Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allaah;
46. “He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous.”
47. She said: “O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?” He said: “Even so: Allaah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!
48. “And Allaah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Injil (Aramaic scripture given to Jesus),
Qur’an - Surah al-`Imraan (The Family of `Imraan) 3:45-8

 

[Vassago]

If you agree with the principle of respecting parents, then you cannot reject the Qur'an completely if there is a verse which you indirectly agree with. And of course there will be other verses that I am sure you will agree with indirectly. Australia have laws that are enshrined in the Qur'an, Australia like all countries around the world are agreed that there are certain principles of sharia that man should follow.

That's like saying I cannot reject the Twilight series as a great work of fiction on vampires simply because I like other vampire stories. A few verses that I agree with doesn't mean I follow the religious text. There is far more I reject than that I agree with. The same goes for the Christian Bible.

 

[Rabbie]

I agree with a lot of what Jesus says in the New Testament. This does not mean that I believe that he was divine. I have read many works of fiction where crime is shown to be wrong. That does not mean I think these books are to be venerated as religious objects.

I agree with some politicians some of the time. That does not mean that I support everything they do or say.

Aziz, you keep quoting the Qur'an in English. I was under the impression that the only authentic version of the Qur'an is in Arabic. How do we know your translation is accurate.

 

[aziz rasul]

A few verses that I agree with doesn't mean I follow the religious text.

I was simply pointing out that no one can reject the Qur'an completely as Galaxiom was doing and I was simply demonstrating this by an example. I'm not suggesting that Galaxiom would accept the Qur'an completely either. Often people will make these wide statements as Galaxiom does but is unaware of what the Qur'an actually says in full. Hate seems to take over.

I accept everything that any scripture says if it agrees with the Qur'an. It would be foolish of me to accept something say in the adulterated OT that happens to match the Qur'an. Similarly with the man made NT.

Aziz, you keep quoting the Qur'an in English. I was under the impression that the only authentic version of the Qur'an is in Arabic. How do we know your translation is accurate.

The Qur'an ideally should be given in Arabic, but I don't know how I would place the Arabic in the post. I'm using Marmaduke Picktall and Abdullah Yusuf Alis translations of the Qur'an. They are not perfect of course but they do give a good idea of what the original pristine Arabic is saying. I'm sure you can check the verses I give as I do supply the references. I'm not making it up I assure you. It would be a major sin if I did.

The Qur'an is a Book of Guidance so therefore it makes sense to quote from it as this is one of the things that God has left behind via His Prophet (peace and Allaah's blessings be upon him).

I would like everyone to believe thru reasoned discussion.

18.001 Praise be to Allah Who hath revealed the Scripture unto His slave, and hath not placed therein any crookedness,

18.002 (But hath made it) straight, to give warning of stern punishment from Him, and to bring unto the believers who do good works the news that theirs will be a fair reward,

18.003 Wherein they will abide for ever;

18.004 And to warn those who say: Allah hath chosen a son,

18.005 (A thing) whereof they have no knowledge, nor (had) their fathers, Dreadful is the word that cometh out of their mouths. They speak naught but a lie.

18.006 Yet it may be, if they believe not in this statement, that thou (Muhammad) wilt torment thy soul with grief over their footsteps.

 

[Vassago]

I think fully accepting or fully rejecting any religious texts are extremely narrow-minded paths to take. They all obviously have their ups and definitely have their downs. Even Greek Mythology taught life lessons through religion.

I believe in questioning EVERYTHING! How else can you learn?

 

[Vassago]

Do you really believe that over the years your religious text has not been altered or changed to suit the times by humans? Humans are imperfect in any religion, thus your holy book is no longer the word of God, but the word of God through interpretation of people, who are imperfect. What if we got it wrong? What if we ORIGINALLY got it wrong? Do you never think about these things? Your own religious text says we are not always right.

 

[aziz rasul]

I think fully accepting or fully rejecting any religious texts are extremely narrow-minded paths to take.

I accept the Qur'an in full.

Do you really believe that over the years your religious text has not been altered or changed to suit the times by humans? Humans are imperfect in any religion, thus your holy book is no longer the word of God, but the word of God through interpretation of people, who are imperfect. What if we got it wrong? What if we ORIGINALLY got it wrong? Do you never think about these things? Your own religious text says we are not always right.

The Qur'an has remained unchanged since it was revealed. The correct interpretation of the Qur'an is possible as we have the narrations of Muhammad (peace be upon him) and also scholars of Islam of the past and today give us the information regarding the Qur'an. After all, not every Muslims studies the Qur'an to the nth degree but we do obtain the basic knowledge.

Humans may want to interpret it the way they want, we can't stop them. That's why there will be a Day of Judgement for everyone, including Muslims. In fact there will be Muslims who will also enter Hellfire.