Are you an atheist?

[Lightwave]

Here's some thoughts on the fundamental problems of religion with specific discussion on the ideas of faith and following religion with islamic examples. (you could substitute any religion even FSM )

If a deity's ultimate purpose is to encourage people to treat others well surely it should not be important what the spiritual following of the person at the end of his life if his actions indicate that he has treated others well he should be accepted into the "clubhouse" ie heaven.

On the other hand if a deity's purpose is simply dictatorship it is important that his views are followed in which case the ultimate recourse is exclusion of acceptance into the clubhouse (or something similar) whether an individual has been good will count for nothing and people will only be forgiven provided they accept the religion because the act of control and leadership is the important part and not moral integrity - eg Catholic confession

Don't take my word for it here's Allah himself. Quran 48: 29

"Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating [in prayer], seeking bounty from Allah and [His] pleasure. Their mark is on their faces from the trace of prostration. That is their description in the Torah. And their description in the Gospel is as a plant which produces its offshoots and strengthens them so they grow firm and stand upon their stalks, delighting the sowers - so that Allah may enrage by them the disbelievers. Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward."

This fundamental contradiction in logic is an aspect of all religions and tends to send people nuts.
People see following the faith as being good and lose the ability to discriminate between right and wrong.

Quickly the act of faith and belonging becomes the important part and not the act of treating your fellow citizens well.

Hence we end up with news like this.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/12/us-myanmar-violence-idUSBRE85B17E20120612

Here's testimony from individuals who joined their religion because they were actively seeking genuine spiritual enlightment and eventually came to realise this ultimate contradiction and found it unacceptable.These testimonials are very powerful I recommend you read some. I find them very encouraging.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/People_Who_Left_Islam#All_Testimonies

Many of these people really wanted a spiritual haven to believe or to treat others well but realised that their religion was actually instructing them to do otherwise.

I have given islamic examples here but other religions could be substituted.

But all religions are similar they require the participant to enter into a kind of personal contract that generally follows the format of

- believe and support us and we will pay you some "great reward" at some point in the future -

In a civilized society we need to get away from this. People should do good to others as a default position whether reward is forth coming or not.

 

[Dick7Access]

Being good or helpful to someone is its own reward!

 

[Galaxiom]

You were very vehement against the Qur’an. I have demonstrated that you at least accept that verse so your initial views of the Qur’an had to be wrong as I knew they would be.

You really are incredibly arrogant. I didn't say I accepted the verse about respecting parents or anything else in the Qur'an. Indeed I don't accept that one should automatically respect one's parents. I know of several parents who are completely unworthy of respect.

Do you have any Qur’anic verses to the contrary?

Do you have any verses that tell us to respect children? Seems like a significant ommission from a book that is supposed to tell us what is important.

This is from someone who initially clearly rejected the entire Qur’an but now agrees with a verse in the Qur’an. If you have any Qur’anic verses in mind, then quote them. Here’s some verses for you.

Qur’an – Surah an-Nahl (The Bee) 16:97 See also 40:40.
Qur’an - Surah al-Ahzaab (The Clans) 33:35

You can quote all the rubbish you like but the undeniable fact remains that the Qur'an is profoundly prejudiced against women.

What rubbish [that Jesus is not mentioned in contempory accounts]

Go ahead and provide evidence for your claim then. Simply name the contemporary book/s that mention Christ. The onus is on you to back your claim since obviously it is not possible to provide absolute evidence that no such texts exist while it should be easy for you to defend your claim by naming them.

I know what you will provide. It will be more quotes from the Qur'an becuase you are completely deluded. Obviously the Qur'an is not such evidence since it was not written until many centuries later.

 

[ChrisO]

It seems I prefer a good question over a wrong or mediocre answer.

Could it be that many more people prefer an answer, any answer, in preference to thinking for themselves?
Is it that, just so long as the answer removes the need to think, the answer is always acceptable?

I think, therefore I am.

Maybe that only proves the consciousness to think; but what does not thinking prove?

And it is not just about religion.

Chris.

 

[Dick7Access]

It seems I prefer a good question over a wrong or mediocre answer.

Could it be that many more people prefer an answer, any answer, in preference to thinking for themselves?
Is it that, just so long as the answer removes the need to think, the answer is always acceptable?

I think, therefore I am.

Maybe that only proves the consciousness to think; but what does not thinking prove?

And it is not just about religion.

Chris.

It is interesting that you should bring that up. Recently on a radio talk show the moderator brought up a survey that had been done on just that subject. Liberals like restaurants better than had menus like Wendy’s that you picked No.1, or No.2 so that they did have to make any choices, and the conservatives like subway better where you have to choose yourself what to put on the bread and even had to pick your own bread. Liberals like the government to pick what insurance they have to have, what, what size soft drink to buy, what vegetables you should eat. conservatives doesn’t want government getting into their personal choices.

 

[Dick7Access]

Galaxiom,
What is religion?

 

[Galaxiom]

It is interesting that you should bring that up. Recently on a radio talk show the moderator brought up a survey that had been done on just that subject. Liberals like restaurants better than had menus like Wendy’s that you picked No.1, or No.2 so that they did have to make any choices, and the conservatives like subway better where you have to choose yourself what to put on the bread and even had to pick your own bread. Liberals like the government to pick what insurance they have to have, what, what size soft drink to buy, what vegetables you should eat. conservatives doesn’t want government getting into their personal choices.

Did you know that seven out of ten claims are simly made up from nothing.

Conservatives prefer phone-in surveys where they can count on loud-mouth rednecks to take the time to give their opinion. Consequently the results usually agree with their prejudices.

Liberals know that such surveys are completley worthless.

 

[ChrisO]

With regard to the religious interpretation of the omnipotent being, the writings of mankind are not right or wrong, they are irrelevant.
To quote them, both fore and against, is also irrelevant.

We may perceive the omnipotent being.
We may remove ourselves from the city lights, lie on our back and look into the clear night sky.
Our perception of it can only be enhanced by our knowledge of it.

It is the universe for as far as all may perceive.

 

[Dick7Access]

Did you know that seven out of ten claims are simly made up from nothing.

Conservatives prefer phone-in surveys where they can count on loud-mouth rednecks to take the time to give their opinion. Consequently the results usually agree with their prejudices.

Liberals know that such surveys are completley worthless.

That’s good, I like that. I had a professor in college that his favorite saying covered that point well. It depends whose ox is being gored!!

 

[ChrisO]

The behaviour of people ultimately becomes unpalatable to most.

Circa 1970, B. F. Skinner wrote a book “Beyond Freedom and Dignity”

To me, that book came down to this…
Behavioural psychologist came from three backgrounds:-
Those that believed all behaviour was inherited.
Those that believed all behaviour was environmental.
Those that believed all behaviour was a combination of both.

Nowhere in the above three is there any other source of behaviour.
We all become the total of the product of external influences.
Nowhere in the human mind is there a place to call our own.

Nowhere in the human mind is there a place that is devoid of external influences which, by its very nature of being isolated from external events, becomes a totally self ordering system.

It can become even more unpalatable than that.
If there was an internal place to call our own, somewhere in our mind that was totally isolated from external events but ordering itself, then that place would violate the second law of thermodynamics.

No trivia here please, after more than forty years I’m still undecided.

Chris.

 

[RainLover]

We are the Sum Total of all our previous thoughts.

 

[rodmc]

We are the Sum Total of all our previous thoughts.

is there a query for that then?

 

[bigalpha]

I don't see why there HAS to be a God (or other all-powerful force).

 

[Alc]

I don't see why there HAS to be a God (or other all-powerful force).

I agree, but if you could in some way prove or disprove that statement, there would end the discussion.

As I see it, until such time as someone can suggest a plausible reason for God (whichever one) having created everything, I'll be unable to believe everything was deliberately created.

I was cornered by a Christian on a bus, many years ago, who started in with the old, flawed 'you find a watch on a beach argument' and when I said the difference between the watch and universe as a whole was that the watchmaker had purpose in mind when he created it, the best he could come up with was the old fallback along the lines of it not being for us to understand why God does things. Sorry, not good enough.

Blind faith and twisting the evidence to match what I want to think doesn't swing it for me, or I'd believe in all sorts of things for which there are no proof (I'd genuinely love to think that dragons, as depicted in stories, were real, but based on everything I know, I don't see how they can be).

 

[bigalpha]

Even if you came up with some 'proof' that God didn't exist - I don't think the very religious folks would accept it. Since God can work miracles; since God has been and always will be; since we can't understand God; since God can do magic, there's no reason that the religious can't simply say "God wanted us to think he doesn't exist".

 

[Alc]

Exactly. There's little to actually be gained in trying to debate the existence or otherwise of God, as there's no proof to satisy one side of the argument and no way that a lack of proof will be taken as satisfactory by the other.

 

[bigalpha]

Exactly. There's little to actually be gained in trying to debate the existence or otherwise of God, as there's no proof to satisy one side of the argument and no way that a lack of proof will be taken as satisfactory by the other.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

 

[Adam Caramon]

Exactly. There's little to actually be gained in trying to debate the existence or otherwise of God, as there's no proof to satisy one side of the argument and no way that a lack of proof will be taken as satisfactory by the other.

Generally I agree. However, there are some people that are not totally committed to their religion. They may have doubts based on scientific discoveries, or the lack of observable miracles, using common sense, etc. I'd like to think debates like these would engage them to further research and seek answers.

In addition, for those people living in fiercely religious areas, these debates may provide a level of sanity for them.

I truly believe that the more of a spotlight that is shined on religion around the world, the more it will recede to live in the shadows. These discussions/debates enhance that spotlight.

Who knows how many hundreds (perhaps thousands) of people have read parts of this very thread which got their mind in gear. And this is only 1 site not even dedicated to religion.

 

[Alc]

I meant the debate here, as it just goes round in circles, but I hadn't thought of your last point. I've been sent here by Google for many unrelated topics.

 

[aziz rasul]

You really are incredibly arrogant. I didn't say I accepted the verse about respecting parents or anything else in the Qur'an. Indeed I don't accept that one should automatically respect one's parents. I know of several parents who are completely unworthy of respect.

Whether one or both of them attain old age in thy life, say not to them a word of contempt, nor repel them, but address them in terms of honour. Qur’an - Surah al-Isra (The Night Journey) 17:23 See also 2:83.

If you agree with the principle of respecting parents, then you cannot reject the Qur'an completely if there is a verse which you indirectly agree with. And of course there will be other verses that I am sure you will agree with indirectly. Australia have laws that are enshrined in the Qur'an, Australia like all countries around the world are agreed that there are certain principles of sharia that man should follow.

Oh and your charge regarding my arrogance. There were many arrogant people during the time of the last Prophet (peace be upon him) and even before then as there are now. They also rejected God and His Scriptures.

Or should say, when it seeth the doom: Oh, that I had but a second chance that I might be among the righteous!

(But now the answer will be): Nay, for My revelations came unto thee, but thou didst deny them and wast scornful and wast among the disbelievers. Sura 39 Verse 58

It is said (unto them): Enter ye the gates of hell to dwell therein. Thus hapless is the journey's end of the scorners. Sura 39 Verse 72

Do you have any verses that tell us to respect children? Seems like a significant ommission from a book that is supposed to tell us what is important.

They consult thee concerning women. Say: Allah giveth you decree concerning them, and the Scripture which hath been recited unto you giveth decree), concerning female orphans and those unto whom ye give not that which is ordained for them though ye desire to marry them, and (concerning) the weak among children, and that ye should deal justly with orphans. Whatever good ye do, lo! Allah is ever
Aware of it. 4.127

Slay not your children, fearing a fall to poverty, We shall provide for them and for you. Lo! the slaying of them is great sin. 17.031

You can quote all the rubbish you like but the undeniable fact remains that the Qur'an is profoundly prejudiced against women.

That's just a statement. No evidence to give I see.
Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has Faith, verily, to him will We give a new Life, a life that is good and pure and We will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions.
Qur’an – Surah an-Nahl (The Bee) 16:97 See also 40:40.

For Muslim men and women, - for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allaah's praise, - for them has Allaah prepared forgiveness and great reward.
Qur’an - Surah al-Ahzaab (The Clans) 33:35

Go ahead and provide evidence for your claim then. Simply name the contemporary book/s that mention Christ. The onus is on you to back your claim since obviously it is not possible to provide absolute evidence that no such texts exist while it should be easy for you to defend your claim by naming them.

I know what you will provide. It will be more quotes from the Qur'an becuase you are completely deluded. Obviously the Qur'an is not such evidence since it was not written until many centuries later.

You bet I'm going to quote the Qur'an much as you hate it. I just love quoting from the Qur'an.

And who doth greater wrong than he who telleth a lie against Allah, and denieth the truth when it reacheth him ? Will not the home of disbelievers be in hell?

And whoso bringeth the truth and believeth therein - Such are the dutiful.

They shall have what they will of their Lord's bounty. That is the reward of the good:

That Allah will remit from them the worst of what they did, and will pay them for reward the best they used to do. 39.32-5

Lo! We have revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture for mankind with truth. Then whosoever goeth right it is for his soul, and whosoever strayeth, strayeth only to its hurt. And thou art not a warder over them. 039.041

Say: O Allah! Creator of the heavens and the earth! Knower of the Invisible and the Visible! Thou wilt judge between Thy slaves concerning that wherein they used to differ. 039.046


45. Behold! The angels (malaika) said: “O Mary! Allaah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Messiah Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allaah;
46. “He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous.”
47. She said: “O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?” He said: “Even so: Allaah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!
48. “And Allaah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Injil (Aramaic scripture given to Jesus),
Qur’an - Surah al-`Imraan (The Family of `Imraan) 3:45-8