Are you an atheist? (1 Viewer)

[The_Doc_Man]

Dave, regarding atheists such as Pol Pot, Stalin, and Mao as perpetrators of genocide vs. the Crusades and the Inquisition: Pol Pot, Stalin, and Mao did not perform genocides in the name of atheism. They did it for raw power as a way to suppress resistance to their rule. The religious wars, however, are done "for the love of God" or "in the name of God" - which totally nauseates me.

We absolutely do agree on the value of life. However, the value of life has no direct bearing on the validity of a religious belief. And depending on whether you are a shepherd looking for sheep or a butcher looking for lambs to be slaughtered, life may have a very different purpose for you than it does for others.

Machiavelli said it: The object of power is power. And for Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, the object of their actions was to cement their power. It was not to force people into atheism. The object of Torquemada and of the Crusader Kings was to force people into Christianity. Therefore, when you speak of genocide as part of an argument, you have to consider the reason for it.

 

[Galaxiom]

But Joseph Stalin was an atheist and, as a result, he saw no problem in murdering millions when he felt it expedient for him or his grand ideas, or for "the people". GW, believing there is a being that will hold him to account, will at least partly hold himself back.

Far from holding him back, GW believed God was on his side. He prayed to God for guidance on the Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq and invaded, rather than accept the findings of the international inspectors who correctly found that there were no WMDs.

Vast numbers of Iraqis died in the illegal war. British PM Tony Blair and Australian PM John Howard likewise decided to go with their God's guidance. All three should have been convicted of crimes against humanity.

Yes, religion has been, at least indirectly, the cause of countless bloody conflicts in history. But the deaths from religious wars are vastly dwarfed by the genocides brought about by Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Hitler during the 20th century. These guys also happened to be atheists. That is looking at it dispassionately - it is a fact.

Hitler was not an atheist. Moreover, the church has never excommunicated him, which says a lot about their values.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

and Hitler during the 20th century. These guys also happened to be atheists. That is looking at it dispassionately - it is a fact.

Not completely factual. Hitler was Catholic, at least nominally. His soldiers wore belt buckles embossed with "Gott mitt uns" = German for "God with us."

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Now and then I will review old posts like this for potential changes or progress. I noted that in mid-February of 2018, around post 5975 give or take a few, we had a discussion about how priests had been getting away with all sorts of improper behavior. In the last half of 2018, some of those scandals finally erupted. The Vatican is neck-deep in damage control and has (finally!) decided to start "outing" the molesters.

The actions by the Archdiocese of Philadelphia is one step that is the beginning of a LONG journey for too many people who have been carrying their burdens for too long. Let us hope that SOME healing can come from this action. Let us ALSO hope that it is not going to be a case of "throw the dogs a bone and hope they will stop growling."

 

[Galaxiom]

In the last half of 2018, some of those scandals finally erupted. The Vatican is neck-deep in damage control and has (finally!) decided to start "outing" the molesters.

The highest Vatican official yet to be convicted is Cardinal George Pell, the head of finances which is usually considered number three in the power lineup.

He was whisked away to the Vatican during the Australian Royal Commission into institutional child abuse after giving evidence in cases where other priests were repeatedly moved to new parishes after allegations of child abuse. Pell and others were accused of covering up these crimes.

This time he has been convicted of sexually abusing two boys himself.

There is a reporting ban of his case in Australia.

His opening remark in the Royal Commission was "Suffer little children, come unto me". It was sickening coming from a man who was responsible for so much suffering.

 

[murphybridget]

I'd give that a go. The cloud would be nice and soft to sit on and I like making music. Don't suppose they would let me swap the harp for a guitar? I am a singer but I always wish I could play guitar too.

The other side is pretty scary though.

"Welcome to Heaven, here is your harp."
"Welcome to Hell, here is your piano accordion"

Could you imagine any better image of acoustic hell?.

I wonder if you get lessons in how to play?

Accordion in Hell, well, some might call it an acquired taste. But who knows, you might bring some musical magic to the underworld!

 

[Jon]

Whether or not Hitler was an atheist is irrelevant. History is littered with evil murderous acts by religious people. Just look at all the suicide bombings in recent times, for example. Or those being beheaded on the streets of London.

Hitler believed many things that each and everyone of us also believe, including the beliefs of religious people. Hitler liked dogs. Should we put all dog owners on anti-Semitism trials? Or perhaps ban dogs because Hitler liked them? Hitler liked spaghetti. Shall we suggest that all Italians are Jew haters?

It is called a "fallacy by association".

Association fallacy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Plenty of people have seen Jesus in their burnt toast. Shall we make them all the Pope?

 

[Isaac]

Plenty of people have seen Jesus in their burnt toast.

ha ha

 

[conception_native_0123]

Plenty of people have seen Jesus in their burnt toast.

and in the sun Jon.

 

[Jon]

I just had an idea. Christmas is, technically speaking, for the religious. You get Christmas plays of the birth of Jesus, where the wise men brought gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh.

How about one for atheists? The three wise men are Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Elon Musk. They bring gifts of thumbdrives, RAM and bolt on CPU power for the birth of an AI monstronsity that takes over the world. I can see it happening! Or is it kinda already happening?

 

[Isaac]

Maybe they've already become one big jumbled mess - already. At Christmas, while we're supposed to be remembering the reason it started aka Jesus saving the world, instead we mostly go out and buy electronics and gadget gifts - such as thumb drives and various computering stuff.

Jesus gets left in the dust of our starry eyed consumerism and Gates, Jobs and Musk (and Bezos) definitely get worshipped.

 

[Mike Krailo]

I just had an idea. Christmas is, technically speaking, for the religious. You get Christmas plays of the birth of Jesus, where the wise men brought gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh.

How about one for atheists? The three wise men are Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Elon Musk. They bring gifts of thumbdrives, RAM and bolt on CPU power for the birth of an AI monstronsity that takes over the world. I can see it happening! Or is it kinda already happening?

Ba Humbug day? Scrooge day?

The ultimate fruit that will come out of AI tech will be the tiny nano chip that goes into your forehead and neutralizes your personality and aggression as soon as it is installed, and makes you completely dependent on the beast. Mandatory worship of the beast on Friday's.

 

[Galaxiom]

At Christmas, while we're supposed to be remembering the reason it started aka Jesus saving the world,

The festival of the solstice predates the attempts by Christians to usurp it for their own morbid story about an angry god who demands the death of innocents to atone for sins.

The decorated tree and giving gifts are part of that tradition.

 

[Crash101]

Gents and Ladies,

I am educated and believe in God. I struggle with some religious concepts around God however. Looking the remarkable way that science and how so many things are inter-related, it seems highly improbable there is no God. Life as we know it only accounts for 15% of what is known according to the mass of matter in the entire Universe. What is in the remaining 85%? who knows and I know that for us to be here through coincidence is unlikely as there is nothing as a coincidence. Life can not just be a fluke of quarks and quazars and other sub atomic particles and the randomness of everything.

Consider water for example. It is a very simple molecule but it allows for the transport of many things and it is one of the only liquids that is denser than its solid. This provides an amazing media for communication down to the Cellular level. If it didnt have 2 lone pairs on the oxygen molecule, it would not do what it does for sure. Is that a fluke? I dont believe in Coincidences!!

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Hello, Crash101. As far as I am concerned, science does what it does without God's help. I respect the fact that you believe in God. I won't bore you with a repetition of the story of my journey to my current lack of belief. It is detailed within this thread if you care to look. Granted, over 6000 posts in this thread might be a lot to pick through, and I'm something like 5th on the list of most posts, so the search wouldn't be trivial.

However, I will point out that once you introduce ANY science into a discussion of any deity, you invite the scientific questions such as "where does this deity exist that allows Him/It to defy the long-term effects of entropy on tissues?" and "can consciousness even exist without a physical organism or object to house it?"

 

[Jon]

It always begs the question, if you think an entity (God) created something misleadingly labelled as random, who created that entity? Why should a law of creation apply to water and not therefore to the entity that creates water? You are suggesting cause and effect, but arbitrarily curtail that chain at God.

 

[Crash101]

If you consider water, there is a hell of a lot of reasons that it shouldnt do what it does, however it is a remarkable substance all caused by the 120 odd degree effect of its lone pair. As for a deity not having consciousness outside a body who knows. I find the neat organisation of things remarkable and I dont believe in coincidence. Everyone is welcome to a thought or two. Some stuff I struggle with and I am pretty lucky in a lot a ways and lot of people are not. this is one of the major problems I have. If there was a God, he can be pretty mean at times or do we as human beings generate alot of it. I think we should do alot more to help people and ensure that we spread whatever we can so that the majority can be ok. Its a complicated topic.

Also, thanks for me finding this site. Had some great help already!! That is awesome. I wish everyone to have a great Holiday and new Year whatever your beliefs are. Everyone deserves a bit of good will at this time of year.

Thanks!!!

 

[prabha_friend]

There may be a God but not "Gods" for sure...

 

[Isaac]

The festival of the solstice predates the attempts by Christians to usurp it for their own morbid story about an angry god who demands the death of innocents to atone for sins.

The decorated tree and giving gifts are part of that tradition.

Cool. Well, I'm sure glad we started Christmas. Instead of worshiping a solstice. A solstice doesn't change your life the way Christ does

 

[Isaac]

It always begs the question, if you think an entity (God) created something misleadingly labelled as random, who created that entity? Why should a law of creation apply to water and not therefore to the entity that creates water? You are suggesting cause and effect, but arbitrarily curtail that chain at God.

We're suggesting that God created everything so the laws don't apply to him. He created the laws