Are you an atheist? (6 Viewers)

[dan-cat]

Aparently it split itself. Neat trick eh? My boss has been trying to get me to do that for years. My therapist says I've succeeded

I'm beginning to see a pattern here.

 

[dan-cat]

Not that I believe anything is "super" natural. Just because we don't understand something doesn't make it "supernatural". If you'd shown a torch to a cave man he'd have thought you had supernatural powers, yet, here we are, a few years later in the grand scheme of things, taking things like that for granted.

Your language is very interesting. You deny the supernatural, fine. Then you use the term 'the grand scheme of things'. What scheme made by whom?

 

[ShaneMan]

What experiences? What is it about your belief in god that "works real well" for you?

You seem to be implying your post that you didn't want your beliefs questioned, just live and let live, but I think if that were really the case you wouldn't be participating in this discussion, since the whole point of this discussion is to question people's beliefs. As far as the respect thing, I think this has been a very civil discussion for the most part, so I don't think you have anything to worry about.

Hey Alisa, good mornin' to ya. I will start at the last of your statement first. I have been on this forum for a number of years so my statement about respect wasn't aimed at you, I just didn't want anyone to start making remarks and your right, this has been a civil discussion, so it probably would have been better unsaid. "What experiences?" Like I said, they are "personal experiences", it is pretty difficult to open up, on a forum, and start to discussion things about me and my life with folks I don't know and take the chance that they are going to come back and start questioning me about them, however I will give you a few. In 1985 my son died, 2 years ago my stepson died, right now my 16 year old stepdaughter in a fight for her life with a very rare type of cancer. In these experiences, I personally, feel that my faith in God has been what has "seen me through" these experiences. This "works well" for me cause I feel like I have been given a calm in the midst of a storm.

As far as my beliefs not being questioned. I don't mind someone questioning my beliefs. I like to hear from people who make me think and try very hard to not be close minded in what they are saying. If they become forceful or are trying hard to get me to see it their way and come over to their side of thinking, then or course I would not want my beliefs questioned. Who would? I am participating in this conversation because it is civil and I figured everyone else was giving their two cents worth so why couldn't I. Most who have responded don't seem to be coming across like they are trying to convert anyone, just stating they way they see things. I don't think I have done anything different from them. As far as live and let live, to a large degree if we as humans actually practiced this, then the world might be a more peaceful place to live.

 

[dan-cat]

Assuming, just for argument's sake, that God exists, why must there be a counterpart? If God does what he does for reasons that no-one can ever understand, then notions like good and evil are irrelevant, as they might both be the same, taken in some frame of reference we couldn't possibly fathom.

Not if God decided that our flawed perception of these notions were relevant in 'the grand scheme of things'.

 

[Alc]

Not if God decided that our flawed perception of these notions were relevant in 'the grand scheme of things'.

But they would be, if he didn't.
As we'll never know what he thinks, it's guesswork, isn't it?

 

[Alc]

ShaneMan, I can't imagine what you went through and I'm amazed you can still function - with or without religion.

Purely out of curiosity, since you 'found' religion has anyone ever made any observations or expressed thoughts that have made you question whether your beliefs were valid (even if you decided, in the end, that you still held them)?

 

[Alisa]

Hey Alisa, good mornin' to ya. I will start at the last of your statement first. I have been on this forum for a number of years so my statement about respect wasn't aimed at you, I just didn't want anyone to start making remarks and your right, this has been a civil discussion, so it probably would have been better unsaid. "What experiences?" Like I said, they are "personal experiences", it is pretty difficult to open up, on a forum, and start to discussion things about me and my life with folks I don't know and take the chance that they are going to come back and start questioning me about them, however I will give you a few. In 1985 my son died, 2 years ago my stepson died, right now my 16 year old stepdaughter in a fight for her life with a very rare type of cancer. In these experiences, I personally, feel that my faith in God has been what has "seen me through" these experiences. This "works well" for me cause I feel like I have been given a calm in the midst of a storm.

As far as my beliefs not being questioned. I don't mind someone questioning my beliefs. I like to hear from people who make me think and try very hard to not be close minded in what they are saying. If they become forceful or are trying hard to get me to see it their way and come over to their side of thinking, then or course I would not want my beliefs questioned. Who would? I am participating in this conversation because it is civil and I figured everyone else was giving their two cents worth so why couldn't I. Most who have responded don't seem to be coming across like they are trying to convert anyone, just stating they way they see things. I don't think I have done anything different from them. As far as live and let live, to a large degree if we as humans actually practiced this, then the world might be a more peaceful place to live.

Well, hopefully you won't see this as disrespectful. When I have experienced tragedy in my life, although thankfully not the death of my own children, it has made me more certain that there isn't a god, and that the only thing I can depend on is myself, because I am the only one that won't let me down. To return to a point I have made earlier though, I can understand that people turn to religion for comfort - life is pretty full of horrible things and it can be devastating. But that doesn't make god's existence any more likely. It just means that religion fills an emotional or psychological need that humans have. I think at times when we think we can't go on, we need something to turn to. That something has been religion for many many people.

 

[dan-cat]

But they would be, if he didn't.
As we'll never know what he thinks, it's guesswork, isn't it?

A disinterested God isn't what we are discussing here is it?

 

[ShaneMan]

ShaneMan, I can't imagine what you went through and I'm amazed you can still function - with or without religion.

Purely out of curiosity, since you 'found' religion has anyone ever made any observations or expressed thoughts that have made you question whether your beliefs were valid (even if you decided, in the end, that you still held them)?

I would be lying if I said no. I guess in my minds eye, I can't see how that wouldn't be human not to. I think there are always times that people evaluate what they believe and how they are living and question "what if I'm not right." "what if what I hear folks say is right and I don't even come close to believing that?" Long answer but sure I have questioned my beliefs. Many times.

 

[ShaneMan]

Well, hopefully you won't see this as disrespectful. When I have experienced tragedy in my life, although thankfully not the death of my own children, it has made me more certain that there isn't a god, and that the only thing I can depend on is myself, because I am the only one that won't let me down. To return to a point I have made earlier though, I can understand that people turn to religion for comfort - life is pretty full of horrible things and it can be devastating. But that doesn't make god's existence any more likely. It just means that religion fills an emotional or psychological need that humans have. I think at times when we think we can't go on, we need something to turn to. That something has been religion for many many people.

Don't take it as disrespectful at all. I think that tragedy usually brings people to a definitive point and there is usually not much fence riding going on when it happens. For you, tragedy further confirmed "there is no God", for me it made me rely more on Him. I'm not using it as "proof" for Gods existence. I can not prove that to you and do not believe anyone can. What I do believe is it proves Gods existence to me. I very much agree with you that it fills an emotional psychological need, and for me, that it has. Maybe I'm not as strong a person as you to rely on something as simple as faith.

 

[scott-atkinson]

I would be interested to know if an Atheist who has children tells them that there is no such thing as Santa Claus thus destroying the magic of Christmas for them.

Do they?

 

[Alisa]

Don't take it as disrespectful at all. I think that tragedy usually brings people to a definitive point and there is usually not much fence riding going on when it happens. For you, tragedy further confirmed "there is no God", for me it made me rely more on Him. I'm not using it as "proof" for Gods existence. I can not prove that to you and do not believe anyone can. What I do believe is it proves Gods existence to me. I very much agree with you that it fills an emotional psychological need, and for me, that it has. Maybe I'm not as strong a person as you to rely on something as simple as faith.

I agree that everyone's personal experience is their own.

 

[Alisa]

I would be interested to know if an Atheist who has children tells them that there is no such thing as Santa Claus thus destroying the magic of Christmas for them.

Do they?

Nope. I use Santa to the fullest, because I know they will figure it out for themselves soon enough. I also teach them to "believe in" the tooth fairy, the easter bunny, and the house fairy (she brings presents for clean rooms). I think magic and magical characters are very useful parenting techniques, and I am not ashamed to use them.

 

[scott-atkinson]

Nope. I use Santa to the fullest, because I know they will figure it out for themselves soon enough. I also teach them to "believe in" the tooth fairy, the easter bunny, and the house fairy (she brings presents for clean rooms). I think magic and magical characters are very useful parenting techniques, and I am not ashamed to use them.

I personally do not believe in God, although my children are taught about it at school to which I am fine.

I do however believe perhaps optimistically that we go to a better place after death.

Based on your comment, would God not rank as a magical being, and that again as Santa they would make their own mind up in time as to his/her reality?

 

[Pauldohert]

Nope. I use Santa to the fullest, because I know they will figure it out for themselves soon enough. I also teach them to "believe in" the tooth fairy, the easter bunny, and the house fairy (she brings presents for clean rooms). I think magic and magical characters are very useful parenting techniques, and I am not ashamed to use them.

Whats the reward for leading a good respectful life. What fairy tale do you suse then - or is it not as important as a clean room?

 

[Alisa]

I personally do not believe in God, although my children are taught about it at school to which I am fine.

I do however believe perhaps optimistically that we go to a better place after death.

Based on your comment, would God not rank as a magical being, and that again as Santa they would make their own mind up in time as to his/her reality?

This may shock you, but I actually send my children to Sunday school because I don't want the whole god thing to be a mystery to them and I want them to have all the information they need to make up their own minds. Mind you, it is a unitarian church - they believe that everyone has to find their own inner truth, so they teach the children about all different religions from the perspective of this is what some people believe and this is what other people believe, not from the perspective of this is The Truth.

I don't think there is anything after death.

 

[scott-atkinson]

I don't think there is anything after death.

Do you think that we just rot and decompose into the ground...


If that is the case then it would be a sad end to a uniquely engineered being!!

I believe as I said, optimistically, that when we die our consciousnous lives on and goes to a higher plane of existance, some God believers would refer to this as Heaven...

I am not sure about Heaven, but I believe that we exist in another place but not in a solid form.

 

[Alc]

A disinterested God isn't what we are discussing here is it?

I was trying - and, clearly, failing through my own lack of clarity - to say that one reason why good and evil magical beings don't necessarily need to counterbalance each other is that, if such beings exist, the whole notion of good and evil may not even exist, in their frame of reference.

Assuming the last part of that sentence to be true, the people who say that the Devil must exist, simply because they believe God exists would be using flawed logic.

 

[scott-atkinson]

I was trying - and, clearly, failing through my own lack of clarity - to say that one reason why good and evil magical beings don't necessarily need to counterbalance each other is that, if such beings exist, the whole notion of good and evil may not even exist, in their frame of reference.

Assuming the last part of that sentence to be true, the people who say that the Devil must exist, simply because they believe God exists would be using flawed logic.

I know Demons exist...

I have seen the Winchester boys fighting them on Supernatural

What a great show that is...

My wife is so in love with Dean

 

[Alisa]

Whats the reward for leading a good respectful life. What fairy tale do you suse then - or is it not as important as a clean room?

I think the idea is you use an externalized reward when they are young, i.e., do this (behave, clean your room, be polite, eat your broccoli, etc.) because then you will get a reward. Once they have got that behavior ingrained in them, they don't need the external reward because the behaviour becomes automatic. I think there is a technical name for this concept, like cognitive behavioural something or other.

This is a pretty common practice in the U.S., don't know about other countries. We do this to young children because we want to instill in them this idea that your actions have consequences. That you can control you outcome of your life by your behaviour. Personal responsibility and all that.

I think it is funny that you refer to using a "fairy tale" - that is what churches do - they create an imaginary character (god) to reward you if you do what they tell you to do, and another imaginary character (the devil) to punish you if you don't. But the real world doesn't cooperate because when we grow up, we realize that there IS no absolute reward for living a good respectful life. In some cases, "good" people do well, in other cases, terrible tragedy befalls them. Bad people sometimes get away with their crimes. In order to skirt this conundrum, religion has moved the rewards and punishments to the "afterlife". Neat.

Anyway, I don't think most people actually need the enticement of an ultimate reward to live a good life. I think humans are evolved to be good and moral (in general) because it benefits our survival as a group when we all follow the same "social contract".