Are you an atheist? (1 Viewer)

[ShaneMan]

For the reasons I gave in my post. In case you missed it, in my experience children don't lie until they learn there is an advantage in doing so. Can you deny that children don't have a sense of justice. Think how often you hear cries of "Thats not fair". Of course I can't speak for your kids - I have never met them but I am sure they arent as bad as you imply.

Sorry for the delay in responding Rabbie. We drove to Oklahoma to celebrate my Dads 70th birthday. My kids are good kids and they have good kids. I am not implying that they are bad, so I either must not be making my point very well or you are missing my point. They are good kids because we taught them to be respectful, polite, considerate, have morals and etc. If we had left them to themselves, I do not believe that would be the case. There are always exceptions to the rule.

From my memories of bible classes I am sure that Jesus said that people needed a childlike attitude to enter the kingdom of Heaven. So are you disagreeing with his teaching. After all it is you that believe in him not me

That's not quite what He said. He said that we must have "the faith of a child." This childlike faith doesn't even come close to the subject we talking about so I believe that makes a big difference from what you having it saying, so no "I'm not disagreeing with His teachings" and yes it is me that believes in Him.

As to your final point there wouldn't be any point in putting well behaved nice children on Super Nanny would there?

No there would not, thus the reason for be bringing it up. The parents that I have seen on this show, everyone of them to a tee, have allowed their children to dictate how things go in the home and look at the behavior of the children. The Moms and Dads have not given direction, punishment, they have just tried to reason with them and these children hit their parents, back talk, lie, selfish and the list goes on and on. I believe that show really demonstrates how children can possibly turn out without good, caring leadership from the parents. You mention that your children and your grandchildren were and are good kids. I believe you and your wife are the reason that they are. You had a strong influence on their lives through love and concern, directed their paths and they turned out well, but I do not believe that they got that way on their on and nor would they have.

I was replying to a post which suggested that children were born liars. I would dispute that. I think they need to learn the advantages of lying before they do it.

That wasn't a suggestion on my part. I am saying that I do believe it to be true and that has been my experience. I have worked with children for over 20 years and I have experienced way too many times that they will twist the truth when telling the truth would have been better (in others words they would not have gotten in trouble if they would have told the truth). I am not suggesting that every human child acts upon what they are capable of doing but that do not believe that a child has to be taught to lie. It's already in them to do it all they need is the opportunity for it to come out. That's where parents and caregivers step in and teach them not to lie.

 

[ajetrumpet]

I would just like to pop in here and try to end this thread, since it is already as old as the stone age...

To answer the basic question: Are you an atheist?

The answer for me is: "No comment", because I don't want to get shot after giving a "real" answer (kind of like nonsense politics, no??)

 

[Rich]

I am not suggesting that every human child acts upon what they are capable of doing but that do not believe that a child has to be taught to lie. It's already in them to do it all they need is the opportunity for it to come out. That's where parents and caregivers step in and teach them not to lie.

Surely children are not born with this as a trait by learn by circumstance

 

[Rabbie]

I would just like to pop in here and try to end this thread, since it is already as old as the stone age...

To answer the basic question: Are you an atheist?

The answer for me is: "No comment", because I don't want to get shot after giving a "real" answer (kind of like nonsense politics, no??)

Don't you wish you lived in a country where people are allowed freedom of beliefs and freedom of speech so they can express their beliefs without being shot.

 

[Darth Vodka]

Surely children are not born with this as a trait by learn by circumstance

i think children learn to lie once they learn to talk well at about 3 or 4, regardless of whether the parents lie or not

they know if they answer "yes" to "did you break it?" they're in trouble, so they try "no"

so i would say, like grammar, children are born with the capacity to lie and it's not a trait they have to learn from others

btw, i'm guessing, i'll have a look on google

 

[Pauldohert]

i think children learn to lie once they learn to talk well at about 3 or 4, regardless of whether the parents lie or not

they know if they answer "yes" to "did you break it?" they're in trouble, so they try "no"

so i would say, like grammar, children are born with the capacity to lie and it's not a trait they have to learn from others

btw, i'm guessing, i'll have a look on google

All children are outright liars until its beaten out of them - which is why God provided us with sticks.

 

[oumahexi]

All children are outright liars until its beaten out of them - which is why God provided us with sticks.

I think you'll find that some are pathalogical and therefore even the most severe beating will not stop them.

Not that I particularly like the idea of lies, but, where do you draw the line? My husband just can't stand liars, to the extent that he never, ever, lies. Consequently, I have learned never ever to ask the question "does my bum look big in this" lol. The world is not black and white, there are a great deal of colours in between all with their reasons for being, but how do you explain to a child that it's bad to lie, except sometimes... ???

 

[Darth Vodka]

but how do you explain to a child that it's bad to lie, except sometimes... ???

surely that's a lie

 

[Pauldohert]

I think you'll find that some are pathalogical and therefore even the most severe beating will not stop them.

Its their will that you have to break. A stick will do that - just as good as breaking an arm - just takes longer.

 

[oumahexi]

Its their will that you have to break. A stick will do that - just as good as breaking an arm - just takes longer.

Presumably that's with kids who are slow learners? The bright one will learn quicker and stop getting caught, yes?

 

[Rich]

i think children learn to lie once they learn to talk well at about 3 or 4, regardless of whether the parents lie or not

they know if they answer "yes" to "did you break it?" they're in trouble, so they try "no"

so i would say, like grammar, children are born with the capacity to lie and it's not a trait they have to learn from others

btw, i'm guessing, i'll have a look on google

But then I'd have to argue that parents set a bad example right form the beginning by telling them that the tooth fairy, god, father christmas exists

 

[oumahexi]

But then I'd have to argue that parents set a bad example right form the beginning by telling them that the tooth fairy, god, father christmas exists

Excuse me? OK, I'm not going to get into an argument about the tooth fairy or god, but you cannot possibly say that father christmas does not exist? I have photographic evidence that he does. Not only that, you can see him in any store you may wander into in the UK, any time after August. Yes, I know, Christmas starts earlier every year...

The jury is still out on the tooth fairy, she certainly didn't find her way into the area I grew up in as a kid Although, I will admit to giving her a helping hand once, when I removed my mothers teeth from the cleaning fluid and replaced them with a 50p piece It was well worth the stick

 

[Pauldohert]

Presumably that's with kids who are slow learners? The bright one will learn quicker and stop getting caught, yes?

Yes you have to beat the sense in to some of them though.

 

[EmmaJane]

Yes you have to beat the sense in to some of them though.

I assume you do not mean this literally

 

[dan-cat]

My basic case was that I don't believe children are born immoral (in terms of lying, stealing as Shane seemed to be suggesting). I was making the point thay I consider these are learnt behaviours in an attempt to avoid punishment.

But can you not just as easily ask why are they attempting to avoid this punishment in the first place?

 

[Rabbie]

But can you not just as easily ask why are they attempting to avoid this punishment in the first place?

I always thought punishment was not supposed to be enjoyable (unless you are a masochist of course) so why would you not want to avoid it.

 

[Brianwarnock]

After 1500 posts arguing about something nobody can prove or disprove (ie the existence of the supernatural or God) we are now discussing something nobody can prove ie how children would behave without the guidance for good or bad of adults since they come into contact with and are therefore influenced by them from day1,

I had a colleague who said " nver let facts get in the way of a good argument", I'm sure he would like this forum.

Brian

 

[dan-cat]

I always thought punishment was not supposed to be enjoyable (unless you are a masochist of course) so why would you not want to avoid it.

Exactly my point. It is the motivation to deceive that is not really taught is it?

 

[dan-cat]

Oh that's an easy one. Kids know when adults are upset and it disturbes their chi. So they trie no to get big people upset.

Or is your question more along the lines of "how do they know what they did was wrong and therefore warrants punishment"? In which case, good question.

My point is, is that the source of the punishment is irrelevant. If a child touches a candle flame it learns not to do it again. It's born with the capacity to adapt.

EDIT: And they're born with this chi?

 

[Brianwarnock]

Exactly my point. It is the motivation to deceive that is not really taught is it?

It sounds like we may be getting close to discussing the point of Hell here.

Brian