Are you an atheist? (5 Viewers)

[Rabbie]

I think failure to condemn is tacit support, I would not have withdrawn the remark. The Catholic Hierarchy has on other occasions, eg Northern Ireland, The Falklands, also shown moral cowardice. Neither that link or anything you may say will convince me otherwise.
But this thread is not about a religion but about the belief or otherwise in a supernatural being, a God.

Brian

I withdrew the remark because there was some condemnation by the Vatican.

As you say there are plenty of other issues on which one could if so minded attack the Catholic Church but that would be off topic.

 

[Rich]

more should have been done by Switzerland, or the USA, or the UK or Ireland.

The UK went to war with the Nazis, what else do you think they should have done?
Ireland a many Catholic country, of course just washed its hands and remained neutral

 

[Mike375]

Despite the rantings of Bush Bliar and their cohorts, there's not a shred of evidence relating IRAQ to terrorism in the US

How do you know. Surely not based on what you have read or via TV.....faith in someone else's words again.

 

[Rich]

How do you know. Surely not based on what you have read or via TV.....faith in someone else's words again.

No, Examination of the evidence

 

[Mike375]

No, Examination of the evidence

What evidence did you collect and personally see?

 

[Rich]

What evidence did you collect and personally see?

More than just one book or article, you can't equate the two

 

[Rabbie]

What evidence did you collect and personally see?

I think that Rich's statement that he had not seen any evidence means your question is redundant

 

[Mike375]

More than just one book or article, you can't equate the two

I thought so. Faith in the word of others and your own prejudice to pick which was best.

 

[Rabbie]

I thought so. Faith in the word of others and your own prejudice to pick which was best.

Mike , would it be possible to see some independant figures backing up your suggestion that salesmen believing in the supernatural are more successful.

I would have accepted your word for this but your insistence on wanting know the detailed evidence for other people's views makes me curious as to what the basis for your remarks is

 

[Rich]

I thought so. Faith in the word of others and your own prejudice to pick which was best.

No, evidence from many compared to just one book full of contradictions written 2,000 yrs ago

 

[Mike375]

But you were one of the posters that said faith don't count. However, all your views are based on the word of others. Faith in others.

How do you judge which book/article is correct when you have no dirrect evidence yourself.

 

[Mike375]

Mike , would it be possible to see some independant figures backing up your suggestion that salesmen believing in the supernatural are more successful.

I would have accepted your word for this but your insistence on wanting know the detailed evidence for other people's views makes me curious as to what the basis for your remarks is

It is not salesmen although that is one in which I have direct evidence. Although there is no doubt that it applies to medical specialist, the atheists are staff specialists. Naturally enough when you are in insurance and talking about disability, heart attacks, death it is quite common to arise.

However, salesmen are far more likely to have the supernatural at the Bible level than is the case with the medical specialist.

And I was interested where Rich got all his information since he does not support faith. Therefore gave him the benefit of the doubt that he did personally collect and see evidence himself.

It is something that been accepted for what seems like forever with salesman but it is mainly salesmen who canvass. It is also common with people who will start a business and put their whole life on the line.

It does not relate to a belief in some supernatural and that supernatural does you a favour because you believe in it/him/she. It is basically a mindset.

 

[Mike375]

PS. I was interested to know how Rich got his information since he does not support or believe in faith so it seemed logical that he collected all evidence himself or actually saw evidence. But alas, he has faith, believes the word of others.

 

[Pauldohert]

#393 Today, 04:05 AM
Rich
User Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: East of Eden
Posts: 18,346


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pauldohert
more should have been done by Switzerland, or the USA, or the UK or Ireland.


The UK went to war with the Nazis, what else do you think they should have done?
Ireland a many Catholic country, of course just washed its hands and remained neutral

Precisely - what reasonably would you expect them to do? Works all ways.

As I say if you pick certain facts and ignore others you can illustate any perverted view you want, which as usual you have done perfectly.

 

[Pauldohert]

As you say there are plenty of other issues on which one could if so minded attack the Catholic Church but that would be off topic.

There are plenty of issues you could support the Catholic church on if so minded, or attack any other organisation in the world again if so minded, but that would be off topic.

 

[Alisa]

Well, I can see the Europeans have already been hard at work discussing this while I have been sleeping! Time for the Americans to throw in a few words.

If that's really your contention, or hypothesis, then I personally am an example that falsifies your hypothesis. So is my sister. I personally know many others who did not have religious parents. So, if you respect scientific method you'll admit your contention, as stated, is flawed.

Now if you were to rephrase your contention along the lines of 'upbringing increases the chance that the child will become religious or atheistic depending on the parent's belief' then I'd go along with you.

But people do have free-will and can rise above their upbringing and education if they choose to do so. I think it's more common not to swim against the current, so to speak, but we all can if we choose to do so. I'm one case in point. I know there are many others who now believe in God but were not brought up by believers. Your premise that choice is just an illusion is demonstrably wrong. Choice can be influenced by environment, but it is not dictated by same.

Obviously we can all choose a different religion, at least those of us living in the "free" world. That doesn't contradict my statement that the vast majority of people DON'T.

People are not automatons, we do have free will. We can, and will continue to exercise our right to choose our own beliefs. But even so, even if choice were an illusion as you say, given that you could not advance a single argument that objectively proves my faith to be misplaced, what is wrong with that?

This is why: Because if I had been born to practicing christian parents, I have no doubt that I would be agreeing with you rather than arguing with you today. Because if I had been born in Iraq instead of the U.S., I have no doubt that I would be a muslim today. It is only by chance that I was born to parents that did not indoctrinate me into any religous belief that I am arguing with you today. I am not saying that any individual person cannot choose against the faith of their parents. I am saying that the empirical evidence shows us that the overwhelming majority of people do NOT choose against the faith of their parents. This tells us that our "choice" of faith is not really a choice, it is just chance. When I consider it is only by twist of fate that I do or don't believe in (insert the name of any god here), it is clear to me that none of them can be "true" or "real".

Where I am extremely uncomfortable with your line of thought is where it seems to lead when viewed in the context of your discussion of how religion itself is 'bad' for society. It seem to me that you're warming up to say 'children should not be allowed to learn religion until after they've safely been indoctrinated with the atheist worldview'....?

I am not warming up to say anything of the sort. I don't think that children should be indoctrinated with anything at all. Heck, I don't think adults should be indoctrinated either. I am wholeheartedly against indoctrination accross the board. It is disrespectful of an individual's free will and innate intelligence to try to indoctrinate them, but it is even worse when that individual is a child and has very little control over what they are exposed to. If religion was so valuable or wonderful or self evident or "the truth", then don't you think that all religions could be passed along by leaving bibles around for 15 year olds to pick up and read randomly? Why is it that every major religion must intensly indoctrinate their followers' children?

In any case, I think we've reached an impasse. I cannot agree with you that religion is a negative thing (unless twisted to serve worldly goals, like anything else), that choice is an illusion, and that no-one should be allowed to teach their values to their children (unless they are atheists) as you seem to advocate.

That is like the third time you have tried to have the last word in this discussion. If you really want to stop discussing it, thats fine, but I don't think we are at an impasse. I think you just want me to give up.

 

[Alisa]

Alisa, firstly you should bear in mind that in spite of your sarcastic comment about sales being such a noble goal there is nothing much happens until a sale is made. You can qualify as an actuary and that will get you a job in an institution or gov't dept. where your influence is about zero. To get a lot further you will need to "make a sale" and therein lies the answer as to why the atheist does not do as well. Edison did not get to be what he was by just inventing. Wernher von Braun was perhaps one of the best salesman of the 20th century.

I am still waiting for you to present another example. It seems like you are saying that religion is a good thing because it makes you a better salesperson. Even if I accept your questionable evidence of that, is that really a good enough reason in and of itself to be religous? Furthermore, since I have no intention of every going into sales, does that mean I am off the hook?

 

[KenHigg]

Could you all please include the author of the quotes you use, this is interesting but hard to follow...

 

[Mike375]

I am still waiting for you to present another example. It seems like you are saying that religion is a good thing because it makes you a better salesperson. Even if I accept your questionable evidence of that, is that really a good enough reason in and of itself to be religous? Furthermore, since I have no intention of every going into sales, does that mean I am off the hook?

Everyone is in sales.

 

[Alisa]

Everyone is in sales.

Sorry to mess up your argument, but I am really not in sales. Although, should someone in this discussion convince me that god really does exist, I will get into sales immediately to take advantage of the prosperity that my new found faith would surely visit on me.