Attack on Israel

[Pat Hartman]

And yet they let their guard down during the anniversary Yom Kippur, this is puzzling.

Are you saying that Israel is to blame? I wonder how many miles of the Gaza border they can actively monitor. Maybe they're taking the lead from our President-in-name-only and just leaving the border undefended. Surely no bad people would cross. The Palestinians are only looking for a good life At least they weren't stupid enough to weld open the gates and cut the razor wire like Joe ordered our border patrol to do. Only Ukraine is allowed to have a border.

 

[AccessBlaster]

Are you saying that Israel is to blame?

My guess is sacrifices needed to be made in order to end this ancient conflict once and for all.

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few”

 

[Pat Hartman]

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few”

That means that Hamas needs to stop killing Jews. Easy peasy.

 

[AccessBlaster]

Let me say it more clearly, Israel probably allowed it to happen. They needed a horrible event in order to end the conflict once and for all.

 

[Steve R.]

And yet they let their guard down during the anniversary Yom Kippur, this is puzzling. There is evidence Hamas was training months prior to this slaughter.

Broken record I know.

The simple (Occam's razor) answer: complacency. Overtime, boring jobs result in mistakes. In this case the border wall was considered working and people let their guard down for a holiday. I seriously doubt that Israel let this happen for the simple reason, the Palestinians have the (unjustified) propaganda high ground. This past week we have seen the rabid emergence of antisemitism and Biden reverting to an anti-Israeli and pro-Iranian polices. The high command of Israel knows that they are the propaganda underdogs. So I doubt they would ever knowingly let something like this happen.

PS: As for an alternative plausible conspiracy theory; the Biden administration is behind the Hamas attack. The Biden administrator is a mindless puppet of Obama. Obama is the "Manchurian Candidate" realized. Obama pursued anti-Israel and pro-Iranian policies. "The Iran Spy Ring in Biden’s State Department". Biden has been releasing money to Iran and has not enforced Iranian sanctions thereby allowing Iran to get oil related revenues. Iran is on the verge of obtaining a nuclear weapon. Israel has vowed to prevent that from happening. The Hamas attack on Israel could be an effort, backed by Obama, to frustrate Israel's ability to take-out Iran's nuclear capability. Of course this is all speculation.

 

[AccessBlaster]

"Israel’s military and espionage services are considered among the world’s best, but on Saturday, operational and intelligence failures led to the worst breach of Israeli defences in half a century."
The New York Times.

The simple (Occam's razor) answer: complacency. Overtime, boring jobs result in mistakes. In this case the border wall was considered working and people let their guard down for a holiday.

Okay

It's not like this was a sneak attack. Hamas was training in plain sight for a very long time with hostage taking, paragliders and mock settlements.

 

[adhoustonj]

Just some thoughts or questions..

You keep forgetting that the Palestinians teach their children how to count by using dead Jews.

Do you have a source on this? I've seen it mentioned multiple times and I have only seen where they are taught to count their martydom's in math? As in they learn math by killing themselves in the name of a free Palestine.

YOU are defending them by saying their evil attack was justified. There is no way what the Palestinian pigs did was justified.

I will never defend the evil Hamas attack - is Hamas even entirely Palestinian?
there have been multiple comments in this thread regarding the Palestinian people voting in Hamas back in 2006, so everything that is happening to them is their choosing..
Could you imagine people defending Hamas attack and terror against Israeli or Jewish people by saying, oh well they voted for Netanyahu?

It is the Koran that tells its followers to kill the unbelievers. The Torah does not teach Jews or Christians to kill unbelievers.

This is a very misquoted interpretation of the Koran. What verse are you quoting? Because if it is the one I suspect it is when they are defending themselves at Mecca. And only talking about a very specific time and period.

The Torah, and the Bible, says to not leave anything breathing in what we call today Israel. Abraham was indigenous to modern day Iraq.
Nehemiah 9:7 You are the Lord God who chose Abram (Abraham) and brought him out of Ur of the Chaldeans and named him Abraham. 8: You found his heart faithful to you, and you made a covenant with him to give his descendants the land of the Canaanites, Hitties, Amorites, Perizzites, Jebusites, and Girgashites. You have kept your promise because you are righteous.

Genesis 12:5 He took hjis wife Sarai, his nephew Lot, all the possessions they had accumulated and the people they had acquired in Harran, and they set out for the land of Canaan, and they arrived there.

Genesis 15:18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram saying: "To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates - the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

Deuteronomy 20:16 God commanded the israelites "in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them -- the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and the Jebusites - as the Lord your God has commanded you".

Do you know who modern day Canaanites are?

Why do you think that no Arab nation will give them sanctuary?

I do not suspect it is a matter of sanctuary. I suspect it is a matter of they do not support Israel's conquest to claim the entire region. If they take in the Palestinians, Israel takes the land as their own. If they don't take in the Palestinians, Israel still has to host the Palestinians without it looking like... They aren't trying to claim the entire region by driving the Palestinians out. I think Egypt and surrounding countries prefer a Palestinian border vs a border with Israel. They have a first hand account of seeing what life is like with a bordering Israel.

There is no possibility of peace with someone whose only objective is to see you dead.

If Israel was not occupying their land, driving them out of their homes, and on another continent - do you think this would be the Palestinians mission? To exterminate Israeli or Jewish people? I see this much more of a land/territory dispute than I do a religious or ethnic based one.

Israel is not targeting civilians

Are you joking? The amount of comments of Hamas using Palestinians as human shields? What is the Hamas death count vs the civilian Palestinian death count. Could you imagine, an armed attacker using your daughter as a human shield in LA, and the cops just shoot them both dead, and say ah so sorry, the attacker was using your daughter as a human shield? That is not acceptable. Not here, nor there.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

The amount of comments of Hamas using Palestinians as human shields?

Your other comments, I will pass for the moment, but this one requires attention. This is situational and has no single absolute answer.

IF the Hamas terrorist is using a Palestinian as a shield AND is still shooting, I would hope I have a sharpshooter to take him out selectively - but if he is still killing others, he has to go. Period.

Now if he is merely THREATENING but not shooting... there we have some room for discussion.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

If Israel was not occupying their land, driving them out of their homes, and on another continent - do you think this would be the Palestinians mission?

Fifty years ago it was a terrorist goal for Mr. Ghassan Kanafani, who supposedly was in Lebanon at the time.

 

[Steve R.]

If Israel was not occupying their land, driving them out of their homes, and on another continent - do you think this would be the Palestinians mission? To exterminate Israeli or Jewish people? I see this much more of a land/territory dispute than I do a religious or ethnic based one.

That is the Palestinian mission, to exterminate the Jewish people. Look at the pro-Palestinian protest slogan: "From the river to the sea" effectively wiping Israel off the map. Then there is the perpetual Palestinian chant of "Death to the Jews". Let us not forget the terrorist brutal sneak attack by Hamas that slaughtered over 1,4000 people (mostly Jewish). Hamas (Palestinians) are the vile aggressor. Pretty clear that the Palestinian are not interested in an idyllic utopian coexistence.

Moreover, the Jews are one of the native ingenuous people to the region. Consequently the Palestinians cannot claim that Israel is occupying their lands. Instead, a case could be made that it is the Palestinians who are (unjustly) occupying historical Jewish lands.

You may see it "this much more of a land/territory dispute than I do a religious or ethnic based one.", but the Palestinians don't agree with your viewpoint. The clue, the Palestinians endless chants of "Death to the Jews". That is very ethnic.

 

[Pat Hartman]

Convert or Kill.

Quran orders Muslims to convert or kill – Debate on the Infamous ‘Sword Verse’ (Quran 9:5)

www.faithfreedom.org

Teach the children to hate. I know you'll all hate the sources here but really, are the Palestinians going to admit to this in public?

European Parliament Condemns Palestinian Authority Textbooks

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

Palestinian TV Teaches Kids The Way to 'Jihad Street'

Every day, hundreds of millions of children in more than 120 countries settle in to watch their local versions of "Sesame Street" or similar shows inspired by the Muppet model. They learn to read, to write, to count. They learn about things like

www.investigativeproject.org

The roots of Hamas’ terror attack can be found in Gaza’s schools - Israel Behind the News

At the core of the tragedy unfolding in Gaza is a question: When Israel withdrew from the coastal Palestinian enclave in 2005, why did the romantic vision of it as a place that would function as a fit home for its citizens turn into the hellish reality of a failed state run by a terrorist […]

israelbehindthenews.com

Payments to the families of the Jew killers

The Palestinian Incentive Program for Killing Jews

Mahmoud Abbas may not be able to stop the knife attacks. But he shouldn't pay the killers' families.

www.bloomberg.com

 

[Steve R.]

Disarm Hezbollah. This is an off-the-wall suggestion, just to raise the issue. Lebanon is an independent country, a "private" army (Hezbollah has been described as a "state within a state"), such as Hezbollah should not be allowed. In the interests of Middle East peace, one would think that the Lebanese army, the (anti-Israeli) UN, and some of the Arab nations would be willing to form a coalition to disarm Hezbollah before Hezbollah decides to expand the war into Israel. This suggestion may not seem realistic given the existing situation, but you have to start discussing it to see if it gets traction so that it can become a reality.

 

[adhoustonj]

Your other comments, I will pass for the moment, but this one requires attention. This is situational and has no single absolute answer.

IF the Hamas terrorist is using a Palestinian as a shield AND is still shooting, I would hope I have a sharpshooter to take him out selectively - but if he is still killing others, he has to go. Period.

Now if he is merely THREATENING but not shooting... there we have some room for discussion.

I truly am not trying to ruffle feathers, more a put your feet in the others shoes for a moment.
And Lord forbid, I am not trying to be anit-semitic, or anti anything.. I don't have any skin in this game other than for the greater human good, or all lives matter, etc. Sometimes I think a contrarian view to popular opinion can enlighten other aspects that are worthwhile.

None the less... I'm Scottish. And I resonate with the Scots fight for freedom that they have never received... But in that same light, I'd never consider Scots terrorists for fighting for their homeland. For rebelling against the English. For being driven by an eternal lust for Freedom throughout the homeland.

in some sliver - maybe more historically than in today's current events, I see a similar battle that the Palestinians are taking on. But it may be too far gone of a cause to even draw similarities to the scots & Palestinians drive towards freedom given current events.

I know this isn't really the forum for these discussions, but I am glad that we had one right here right now. For a long list of reasons

IF the Hamas terrorist is using a Palestinian as a shield AND is still shooting, I would hope I have a sharpshooter to take him out selectively - but if he is still killing others, he has to go. Period.

could you stomach that answer to your family being killed? If you were a Palestinian man and that was the answer given to you on your family's, son, daughter being killed, could you accept that? If not, what kind of response would you formulate for justice?

 

[adhoustonj]

Convert or Kill.

Quran orders Muslims to convert or kill – Debate on the Infamous ‘Sword Verse’ (Quran 9:5)

www.faithfreedom.org

Teach the children to hate. I know you'll all hate the sources here but really, are the Palestinians going to admit to this in public?

European Parliament Condemns Palestinian Authority Textbooks

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

Palestinian TV Teaches Kids The Way to 'Jihad Street'

Every day, hundreds of millions of children in more than 120 countries settle in to watch their local versions of "Sesame Street" or similar shows inspired by the Muppet model. They learn to read, to write, to count. They learn about things like

www.investigativeproject.org

The roots of Hamas’ terror attack can be found in Gaza’s schools - Israel Behind the News

At the core of the tragedy unfolding in Gaza is a question: When Israel withdrew from the coastal Palestinian enclave in 2005, why did the romantic vision of it as a place that would function as a fit home for its citizens turn into the hellish reality of a failed state run by a terrorist […]

israelbehindthenews.com

Payments to the families of the Jew killers

The Palestinian Incentive Program for Killing Jews

Mahmoud Abbas may not be able to stop the knife attacks. But he shouldn't pay the killers' families.

www.bloomberg.com

Do you have a source on Palestinians teaching their children how to count by using dead Jews or not? Because you have stated it multiple times, and I have not been able to find a source, including skimming through the articles you have posted. If i am mistaken, I apologize - just took a quick skim.

You know, brainwashing is normally considered a bad, or derogatory term.
But sometimes, people brains damm sure need a little washing. Sometimes A LOT.

Post a source, or walk back your statements.

 

[adhoustonj]

That is the Palestinian mission, to exterminate the Jewish people. Look at the pro-Palestinian protest slogan: "From the river to the sea" effectively wiping Israel off the map. Then there is the perpetual Palestinian chant of "Death to the Jews". Let us not forget the terrorist brutal sneak attack by Hamas that slaughtered over 1,4000 people (mostly Jewish). Hamas (Palestinians) are the vile aggressor. Pretty clear that the Palestinian are not interested in an idyllic utopian coexistence.

Moreover, the Jews are one of the native ingenuous people to the region. Consequently the Palestinians cannot claim that Israel is occupying their lands. Instead, a case could be made that it is the Palestinians who are (unjustly) occupying historical Jewish lands.

You may see it "this much more of a land/territory dispute than I do a religious or ethnic based one.", but the Palestinians don't agree with your viewpoint. The clue, the Palestinians endless chants of "Death to the Jews". That is very ethnic.

I'm not sure the answer to this - but given your statements, I'd appreciate your insight.

Where do you think the slogan originated from? Do you think the pro-Palestinian people just woke up one day wishing to wipe Israel off the map? Or they had their land taken and condemn the act? I think they would chant "death to xxxxx", whoever it was that occupied their land.

If the Palestinian people had something to fight for, could you guess what it may be?

 

[Steve R.]

I'm not sure the answer to this - but given your statements, I'd appreciate your insight.

Where do you think the slogan originated from? Do you think the pro-Palestinian people just woke up one day wishing to wipe Israel off the map? Or they had their land taken and condemn the act? I think they would chant "death to xxxxx", whoever it was that occupied their land.

If the Palestinian people had something to fight for, could you guess what it may be?

I refer you back to Post #252 where @Jon provided an excellent YouTube video that you can watch. Moreover, it seems that your are starting off with the false premise that the land, now know as Israel, somehow belongs to the Palestinians since you wrote: "whoever it was that occupied their land." (emphasis added).

As I have previously expressed:

Moreover, the Jews are one of the native ingenuous people to the region. Consequently the Palestinians cannot claim that Israel is occupying their lands. Instead, a case could be made that it is the Palestinians who are (unjustly) occupying historical Jewish lands.

Take a look at the maps in Post #314 and #316.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

could you stomach that answer to your family being killed?

Oh, I can understand that it would drive a person to extreme desire for retaliation. But I would like to think that I am smart enough to know that it was Hamas leadership that set up the situation. I haven't been indoctrinated to hate Jews, after all. I would go after Hamas leaders, hoping to take at least one or two of them out before they take me. But then again, I would have been smart enough to leave town with family as soon as possible. I evacuated from my home three times since I joined the forum - three really bad hurricanes. Not the same as terrorist attacks, but I know enough to leave a dangerous area.

 

[adhoustonj]

I'd like to imagine that I would have had the same chance as you mention on evacuating the area.

Hurricanes have not been kind to Louisiana historically.
For many Palestinians, it seems evacuation is not an option.
Electing for another election to vote another leader besides Hamas after their grips of the reigns in 2006 - is also not an option.

For the Israeli people - obviously living alongside this, is also not a long term option.

There definitely doesn't seem to be a "good" answer here, or a perfect proposed solution that could potentially be implemented.

I can't help myself but to feel more sympathetic to the Palestinian people. They really do not have many options at their disposal.
The people of Israeli have many, and are backed by the mightiest military force in the world.

 

[adhoustonj]

I refer you back to Post #252 where @Jon provided an excellent YouTube video that you can watch. Moreover, it seems that your are starting off with the false premise that the land, now know as Israel, somehow belongs to the Palestinians since you wrote: "whoever it was that occupied their land." (emphasis added).

As I have previously expressed:

Take a look at the maps in Post #314 and #316.

I watched the first ten minutes of that video - can you summarize your takeaway? I didn't pick up much honestly.. not bashing the video, but they need some more meat and potatoes upfront if I'm going to watch the whole thing.

I do not believe the land "belongs" to the Palestinians. I believe the Palestinians have inhabited the land for hundreds of years, and were ordered/forced to make space after the Balfour declaration, which displaced many Palestinian people and families from what they called their home for who knows how long.

I also do not believe the land belongs to the current Israeli government.

 

[Pat Hartman]

and were ordered/forced to make space after the Balfour declaration, which displaced many Palestinian people and families from what they called their home for who knows how long.

They were not displaced. There were very few people living in the area at the time. The ones that were here were living 8th century lifestyles herding goats and subsistence farming. It was mostly desert. When Jewish immigration was allowed, it was the Jews that brought the desert into the 20th century. The people who left in 1948 when the creation of Israel happened, left because they were afraid they would be persecuted by the Jews since that is what their religious leaders told them. They willingly became refugees. As a result of the war initiated by the neighboring countries who immediately took the Palestinian territory for themselves, additional Arabs who participated in trying to undermine Israel were expelled. The Palestinians who stayed, prospered as Israel grew. So, even though the West Bank and Gaza were officially given to the Palestinian Authority, the West Bank was annexed by Jordan and Gaza was annexed by Egypt. It wasn't until 20 years later that the Israelis occupied those territories as a result of one of the many wars. They also occupied the Golan Heights which were part of Syria because allowing Syria to keep the high ground where they had their gun emplacements was too dangerous.

For many Palestinians, it seems evacuation is not an option.

Ask yourself why Egypt built such a big wall on their border with Gaza? Why is the wall in the Israeli borders bad but the Egyption wall is not?
Ask yourself why that border was essentially closed prior to Oct 7th? Why is it bad that the closed Israeli border closed but not bad that the Egyption border is closed?
Ask yourself why the neighboring nations refuse to take refugees even though they are all members of the UN and sign the same treaties that we do?

Do you have a source on Palestinians teaching their children how to count by using dead Jews or not?

I couldn't find it. Seems to be buried by the search engines these days. But I posted several other links regarding the way that the children are taught to hate the Jews.