Attack on Israel

[The_Doc_Man]

I also do not believe the land belongs to the current Israeli government.

After the fall of the Ottoman Empire at the end of WW I, there is a chain of ownership that leads through the UN to the current Israeli government. The history of that region's governance is available for scrutiny online and links have been published in this thread detailing that history.

If you are referring to "morally belongs" then I can't help you there either. Morally, given the Old Testament contents, I believe the land belongs to the Jews.

 

[Pat Hartman]

Morally, given the Old Testament contents, I believe the land belongs to the Jews.

Paradoxically, the Muslims who call themselves "people of the book" ignore that promise. But given the way they turn their world upside down during Ramadan and sleep days and party at night to avoid the fasting/abstaining rules, maybe it is just hyprocasy.

 

[Steve R.]

I believe the Palestinians have inhabited the land for hundreds of years, and were ordered/forced to make space after the Balfour declaration, which displaced many Palestinian people and families from what they called their home for who knows how long.

Really??? You only think that it is the Palestinians who have suffered and been displaced?

The expulsion of Jews from Arab countries and Iran – an untold history - World Jewish Congress

www.worldjewishcongress.org

Until the 1960s, approximately one million Jews lived in Iran and other Arab countries having arrived in the region more than 2,000 years before. Nowadays, it is estimated that only around 15,000 remain, as the majority of the Jewish population in Muslim lands were forced to flee their homes in the years following the establishment of the State of Israel. This mass expulsion and exodus is part of modern history, but inexplicably, it’s neither taught at schools nor remembered within the context of the conflicts in the Middle East.

Unfortunately, in the article below, the full text is behind a paywall, so only the headline is readable.

Opinion | Many Israelis Are Refugees From Arab Lands

In 1948 some 900,000 Jews lived in Iraq, Yemen and other countries. Almost all of them were violently forced out.

www.wsj.com

It seems that you are only accepting pro-Palestinian facts and narratives. The Jews (including Christians) have been forced to "give-up" their lands to make room for Muslim Arabs. Their suffering shouldn't be dismissed simply because the Palestinian claim faux victim-hood. It is the Palestinians (Hamas) who have repeatedly broken cease fires (over the past 80 years) and used terror tactics against Israel currently culminating in the October 7, 2023 barbaric sneak attack on Israeli citizens.

There is also an issue of "relative morality". Currently, there is a wave of pro-Palestinian protests disingenuously claiming that Palestinians constitute a victim class that must be granted (undefined) justice. What about the Kurds?

When the Middle East was partitioned, the Kurds lost-out and were denied their own homeland. The Kurds are currently under the threat of genocide from Turkey, Iran, Syria, and Iraq. Don't they deserve, as a victim class, justice (their own-homeland). But their suffering is ignored. The reason; the Palestinians are useful cannon fodder and have the propaganda support of the Islamic community in their quest to exterminate Jews. So one modify a left wing slogan to: "Kurdish lives do not matter."

As another aspect of "relative morality". It is the Palestinians who have devoted their entire "economy" to making war on Israel. which made Gaza poor. It should also be observed that Gaza was given its "independence" to become a city nation, like Singapore. Israel withdrew all its citizens and the military from Gaza, so there was no Israeli occupation of Gaza. Yet, the Palestinians conducted a barbaric sneak attack on innocent civilians and claimed that was morally just because they falsely claimed that they were "occupied" and not free.

Where are the Palestinian peaceniks marching in the streets demanding that Hamas stop attacking Israel and that Hamas give-up its weapons?
Apparently there are none. Does this then imply that they are pro-terrorist? Seems so. Especially considering that they actively endorse a Jewish genocide. Therefore it would be foolish of Israel not to to exterminate Hamas.

 

[ColinEssex]

Many people here have posted their opinions and beliefs. Some seem sensible and some are fantasy, I guess most are based on the TV news or internet rubbish or from newspapers.
How about something constructive- what will it take to end this war? The USA getting involved? Lebanon getting involved? Maybe a diplomatic solution? Or just let it run its course? Or something else.
Any thoughts?
Col

 

[NauticalGent]

The USA getting involved?

Both the US and the UK are partially to blame for this mess in the first place

Lebanon getting involved?

Probably not

Maybe a diplomatic solution?

I do not beleive there can be one. This goes too far back to a situation that cannot be "corrected".

Or just let it run its course?

Probably. Neither side will be satisfied until the other is gone.

 

[Pat Hartman]

Maybe a diplomatic solution?

There have been 15+ Diplomatic "solutions" during the past 75 years. So, that's an average of peace lasting 5 years because that's about how long Hamas and the other Jew haters in this drama take to rearm and start lobbing missiles over the wall at Israeli civilians again. Despite the lies regarding Israeli occupation of Gaza, Israel left Gaza in 2005 and they became essentially an independent city-state similar to Singapore.

Just over the border on Israeli soil on the same sand and the same sea are prosperous towns and tourist resorts. Why is Gaza a shithole? Because the Palestinians couldn't be viewed as victims if Hamas spent its income bettering the lives of the residents rather than buying ammunition to kill unarmed Jews.

Who is going to ask Hamas to rewrite its charter to remove the "kill all the Jews" and "take back Israel so we can move in" parts? Should they do that, would the citizens be allowed to have a free election to choose between a "reformed" Hamas and other more peaceful options? Who would enforce the peace? The UN is totally impotent. They have been officially mum regarding the Russian invasion of Ukraine because Russia blocks any vote to censure itself The UN is very much anti-Israel and anti-Jew. Anti-Semitic doesn't technically apply since the Jews and the Arabs are technically the same ethnicity. The UN has made many attempts help the Palestinian refugees but have made ZERO attempts to aid the Jewish refugees who have been expelled from the surrounding Arab countries and there are far more Jewish refugees than Palestinian refugees but nobody cares The Kurds are in a similar position. No one cares about them either.

Israel is not stopping the cleanup until it eliminates all the girly members of Hamas hiding behind the skirts of women. Nor would I ask them to. Then they'll send the Mossad to take out the leaders hiding in Europe in their villas. Enough is enough or as the Arabs say "halas!" - always in a very sharp, angry voice.

I do not understand why one of our mobile hospital ships is not already anchored off shore helping with the injured.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I do not understand why one of our mobile hospital ships is not already anchored off shore helping with the injured.

Probably because that ship would invite terrorist attention. Hamas can only win this conflict only as long as they can play the "innocent victim" card. If they started actually getting humanitarian aid, they would be left high and dry on their "civilian casualty" issues.

 

[ColinEssex]

So what's your answer then Pat? You give the impression you know it all. We can all do history research, but what's your theory on how this will pan out? (If you have one)
Col

 

[Steve R.]

How about something constructive- what will it take to end this war?

The Palestinians propose to exterminate the Jews. The Palestinians don't care about today's moral standards. They savagely slaughtered over 1,400 people in a barbaric sneak attack. That gives the Israeli's the right to ignore today's moral standards and take whatever action they deem appropriate to protect Israel and its citizens. The Palestinians fanatical religious obsession that Israel is somehow in a genocidal war against them may well prove true in the near future considering the obsessive avoidance of the Palestinians to refrain from genocidal war against Israel. If the Palestinians don't want to accept peace, then every death is on them. It takes two to make peace. Time for the Palestinians to accept that reality and accpt peace.

 

[Pat Hartman]

We can all do history research

But most don't bother. They think the Arabs preceded the Jews as the occupants of the area sometimes called Palestine and that the Jews stole it from them when the reality is, the Jews occupied it more than 2000 years prior to the advent of Islam and only managed to get it back - at least some of it in 1948. AND, this is really important --- the Arabs were not displaced in 1948 except in rare situations similar to the concept of eminent domain in the US. If the government needs your land for something, they get to take it and compensate you. The people who WILLINGLY left Palestine at the urging of their religious leadership became voluntary refugees and the situation has deteriorated even more because the countries that house the refugee camps have categorically refused to assimilate the Palestinians. Yes, other Arabs were expelled from Israel after the end of the first war because they were enemy combatants. So, the Palestinians are truly a people without a country. I really do feel for them but the problem is not the making of the Jews. This is a political problem and they should be blaming themselves or their grandparents for not believing the Jews in 1948 when they told the Arabs not to leave the new state of Israel. The arabs who stayed, integrated and prospered. But, hundreds of thousands of them left and now they are political pawns trapped without an exit strategy except for "Kill the Jews" because they were never allowed to assimilate. The countries where they exist (what they have can't be called life) do not permit them to own more than 49% of anything. Who wants to build a business or a house when someone else, who does nothing at all except act as as "sponsor" gets 51%. They need special permission to travel since they are not citizens of any country and need special passports. They have no hope. Their children and grandchildren forever have no hope. Of course they are upset. They are more than upset. They have been filled with such hatred for the wrong people for political reasons that they have gotten to the point where no country will grant them entry. Why do you think Egypt built that huge wall on their border with Gaza? Are they evil like the Jews? Why will no neighboring countries offer the people of Gaza sanctuary? Because they want the Palestinians to be killed by Jews for the negative world opinion this causes. They exist in this fantasy world that if the victimhood of the Palestinians is exaggerated, may be the big satan will abandon its support of Israel and they can then bomb them out of existence?

Colin, people need to think about this problem deeply, not superficially. It is extremely complex and it started more than 1000 years ago when Islam was born and the Jews refused to acknowledge Mohamad as their prophet. But, it is currently a political problem and has no actual solution as long as Hamas and the Arab world insist on clearing the land of Jews from the river to the sea and letting the Palestinians go back and occupy Israel. This is simply not going to happen. Or do you think it is? If this solution is permanently off the table, what is the solution? Why has the two state solution failed? The Arabs say they want it but they really don't. So far, there is absolutely nothing except "kill all the Jews" that the Arabs will accept as a solution. There is no negotiating with them. Hamas will eventually ask for peace because they will have run out of women to hide behind. Israel will have no choice to grant it assuming they give back the prisoners' they took.

I told you. I don't have an answer. Israel will pursue this until every member of Hamas is rooted out of Gaza. There is no longer any middle ground. Hamas has made its position perfectly clear. If you haven't believed all the previously broken peace treaties, why would you believe they would ever honor the next one? The only thing that will stop the israelis at this point is the safe return of ALL the hostages. Israel has already lost the media war. We have brainwashed people in the US tearing this country apart with their Jew hatred and threatening Jews in their homes.

You give the impression you know it all.

Why? Because I've lived there. I am not an expert by any means but I've lived in an Arab country and talked with the people I knew about the problem. Kuwait was filled with refugees from Lebanon and the former Palestine Mandate when I was there in 1977. My application (which was HR and Payroll for the Kuwait civil service) forcibly deducted 10% of the wages of any Palestinian working for the government and they sent it to the PLO. So, this was a daily topic of conversation and that was THIRTY years after the diaspora.

PS, President Obama was just interviewed on TV and although he condemned Hamas for the attack, he also mentioned that Israel's hands were not clean because of the "occupation". So, a former President of the United States of America doesn't even know that Israel hasn't occupied Gaza since 2005. How can there be any hope that the average person could understand the situation when the interviewer didn't even point out that particular fact? Everyone who heard that interview, who doesn't know anything about history, has now confirmed his belief that Israel has done something equally bad to what Hamas did.

 

[Mike Krailo]

Behind every war are many lies and half truths. The truth is when you allow your people to be ruled by tyrants, you have no out. There is no bloodless solution possible. The truth is Hamas and it's supporters/backers are playing the propaganda game and could care less about Palestinians. They just want more support to do more of the same that has already been done. If Israel doesn't give them any propaganda, they will create it and still blame Israel, but that's better than out right giving them what they want and getting more support to continue the killing of innocent Jews and starting another Nazi like geocide world wide. I'll be praying for Israel and that God protects his chosen people and the innocent among the Palestinians.

 

[Jon]

The truth is when you allow your people to be ruled by tyrants, you have no out.

...when you democratically elect tyrants.

 

[Jon]

But, it is currently a political problem and has no actual solution as long as Hamas and the Arab world insist on clearing the land of Jews from the river to the sea and letting the Palestinians go back and occupy Israel.

And now Israel is busy clearing Hamas from the river to the sea.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

And now Israel is busy clearing Hamas from the river to the sea.

True... but unfortunately, if some of them evacuate, they go away for a few years in hiding and come back again. That has been the pattern.

 

[AccessBlaster]

Israel always get criticized for collateral damage, that's a given. Israel should have struck Hamas while they were in training (months before Oct 7.) They would have killed only Hamas fighters, possibly hundreds. That would have been a clear victory and a deterrent. When you have your enemy in the open away from civilian populations you strike. Or you can wait for them to strike you.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Israel always get criticized for collateral damage, that's a given. Israel should have struck Hamas while they were in training (months before Oct 7.) They would have killed only Hamas fighters, possibly hundreds. That would have been a clear victory and a deterrent. When you have your enemy in the open away from civilian populations you strike. Or you can wait for them to strike you.

Presumes that Hamas would stay away from civilians during training. Given their penchant for putting their facilities underground near housing and hospitals, I have to say the odds are good that the preemptive strike would have had a lot of civilian casualties too.

 

[Pat Hartman]

And now Israel is busy clearing Hamas from the river to the sea.

Do they have an option? Hamas is a terrorist organization that threatens Israeli civilians. If they don't eliminate the terror cells, they will rearm and continue their bombing and terror. It's like wack-a-mole except that you need to break the game to make them stop popping up so the Israelis are breaking the game.

Israel always get criticized for collateral damage, that's a given. Israel should have struck Hamas while they were in training (months before Oct 7.) They would have killed only Hamas fighters, possibly hundreds. That would have been a clear victory and a deterrent. When you have your enemy in the open away from civilian populations you strike. Or you can wait for them to strike you.

But Israel couldn't do anything then. Training isn't terror attacks. You can't just kill people for doing chin-ups and running the tire gauntlet. Besides, I thought the actual training for the attack took place in Iran.

The situation in 1967 was different. Military equipment was being massed at their borders. They had to strike first or be overwhelmed.

 

[Steve R.]

Barak Obama compares Hamas rapes and beheadings to Israel's non occupation of Gaza
An excellent podcast by Alan Dershowitz. It is approximately 30 minutes long.
The big takeaways:

• Obama is an anti-Israeli racist. Dershowitz feels very betrayed by Obama.
• The slaughtering lynching of over 1,400 people, mostly Jewish, is that same as the lynching of Blacks and should be treated as such.
• Those protesting on behalf of Hamas are the new Hitler Youth.
• Gaza is not occupied territory.

 

[Jon]

Do they have an option? Hamas is a terrorist organization that threatens Israeli civilians. If they don't eliminate the terror cells, they will rearm and continue their bombing and terror. It's like wack-a-mole except that you need to break the game to make them stop popping up so the Israelis are breaking the game.

I meant it as a good thing!

 

[Pat Hartman]

I meant it as a good thing!

We can probably agree that killing isn't a good thing but in this case, Israel has no other option. The Palestinians have broken every single peace agreement they have made. They have no honor. All they want is for the Israelis to stop shooting long enough for them to rearm and renew their attack on unarmed civilians. They should be happy that the Israelis do have honor or a lot more Palestinians would be being killed every day.