Attack on Israel

[ebs17]

Turkey is a NATO member and in an excellent geopolitical position (access to the Black Sea, proximity to Russia, Iran, Caucasus, Middle East) and a large country with 85 million inhabitants.
Turkey is certainly not a good friend under Erdogan, but they definitely don't want a hostile position either.

 

[Steve R.]

Turkey is a NATO member and in an excellent geopolitical position (access to the Black Sea, proximity to Russia, Iran, Caucasus, Middle East) and a large country with 85 million inhabitants.
Turkey is certainly not a good friend under Erdogan, but they definitely don't want a hostile position either.

Turkey is definitely in an excellent geopolitical position, but under Erogan they are clandestinely undermining western values and promoting Islamic expansionism. Turkey should be condemned for their occupation of Cyprus (and suppression of Kurds and Christians). The US is too cowardly to condemn Turkey. The UN is anti-US, so they will not demand that Turkey withdraw or stop the suppression of Kurds and Christians. Turkey is getting away with "murder".

 

[ebs17]

The list of debatable allies can be expanded at will, starting with Saudi Arabia.
Your own interests outweigh the demands for law, human rights and democracy.
The USA also pumped money and weapons into Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan until the tide changed there anyway.

 

[Steve R.]

Stealing a quote from someone else:

Like Ben Shapiro said yesterday, if everybody in Israel put down their weapons everybody in Israel would be dead, but if everybody in the Palestinian areas put down their weapons the entire region would live in peace. And that tells you all you need to know.

 

[AccessBlaster]

I find it interesting that the left / CNN and Trump are ideologically aligned on this one issue. Trump has always supported Israel while the left comes kicking and screaming, see Bernie Sanders.

 

[Pat Hartman]

So, if you don't believe climate change is real,

Who ever said that???? Listen to yourself. You are Insisting that ALL climate change is caused directly and only by human actions. You are not even a little bit willing to consider that perhaps the change might be caused by natural causes and that humans may be contributors. THAT is the fallacy, not that anyone actually disputes the fact that the climate is changing. OF COURSE the climate is changing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Any idiot knows that the earth's climate has changed dramatically over time. Average temperature goes up, it goes down. Rainfall around the globe goes up, it goes down, The ice sheets grow larger, they shrink. Humans contribute a significant amount of pollution, especially to our water resources. Much of that pollution comes down to three causes.
1. runoff from chemicals caused by industrialized farming
2. runoff from chemicals involved in manufacturing
3. dumping waste, especially plastics which never die

A lot has been done to stop #2 but #1 and #3 are still huge problems.

As a programmer, I'm skeptic about Israel not knowing about these attacks

What about the US and the spy agencies in the UK and EU? Did any of them know and not tell Israel?

peace should be the only thing we all should be talking abou

There can be no peace with Israel's Muslim neighbors. They support directly and indirectly, terrorist attacks on Israel and Jews and provide rewards for the families of ignorant children who have been taught from birth to hate Christians and Jews and who martyr themselves in their attempts to kill Jews. Israel has made good faith efforts numerous times over the past 77 years but as long as their enemies insist that Israel cannot exist, there is no possible peace. There is only fragile cease fires when the Israelis beat the latest attackers into submission. The terrorists also target Western democracies. The US and all the countries of Europe have suffered substantial attacks from Jihadis and fatwahs issued by "holy" men. The Koran specifically tells Muslims that non-believers must be converted or subjugated and if that isn't possible, they must be murdered. And there we stand. You can't get by this and the sooner we all recognize it the sooner we can work to resolve that problem.

@Edgar_ Did your parents raise you to hate Muslims? Was this hatred an integral part of your education? How do you make peace with a person who has been raised to hate you and been told that he will earn a special place in paradise with great rewards if he martyrs himself by killing you (also the "state" will pay his parents blood money)? Can you see how this type of martyrdom appeals to the poor and uneducated? They see no earthly future for themselves but they get relief from their hopeless earthly existence and their family gets a financial reward for their sacrifice if they can kill a non-believer as they die. Seems like a plan. Their leaders give them drugs as they head off on their evil mission to reduce the possibility of them rethinking the task.

the Hagia Sophia

The first church built on this site dates to 360 and predates Islam by ~ 500 years so it should be a church and NOT a mosque!!! It was first converted to a Mosque in 1453. So, the Christians have dibs.

The UN is anti-US

The UN won't even condemn the Russian attack on the Ukraine!!!!

 

[Edgar_]

Who ever said that????

I thought that was your position. If it's not, then please ignore that rant.

What about the US and the spy agencies in the UK and EU? Did any of them know and not tell Israel?

I don't know, maybe tactical information of that kind isn't something you'd be willing to reveal to other countries, I'd say everyone spies on everyone just to make sure.

@Pat Hartman, as for the Muslims who were raised to hate on other religions, hold on, is it religion hate? Isn't inequality perhaps the most significant motivator, not religion? If you don't think so, I will only suggest you to reconsider. If these people lived in comfort and had access to the same opportunities as their counterparts, would they still seek conflict? Put yourself in the shoes of a Palestinian living in the remnants of their homeland, witnessing Israeli citizens prospering in areas they can no longer inhabit for reasons as old as thousands of years. Would that seem like a just society to you? It's an intricate situation. These individuals are confined to a narrow strip of land, with much of it under the control of those who displaced them. Who's to blame here? Israel? Themselves? Pretty sure it's the economic system, which thrives in times of war, by predating its two primary natural resources: human life and nature.

So, I ask, should Palestine attack Israel? No. Should Israel attack Palestine? No. Should we let war solve this? how can it possible solve it? the soldiers have children/family/friends, they'd want revenge, the cycle will just repeat until one destroys the other. The root is the economic system, wars are stupid, we should not be allowing them, or picking sides while we eat pop corn and make threads about which side should be killed. Would you be writing Access apps if you were born in Palestine? That goes for the entire community here that seems to like the idea of Israel wiping out Palestine. Fate put you in that land, would you think it's fair that someone 7k miles away wishes your death because your existence annoys him/her?

Wars are stupid as F***k.

 

[Steve R.]

The root is the economic system, wars are stupid, we should not be allowing them, or picking sides while we eat pop corn and make threads about which side should be killed. (emphasis added)

Who is not going to allow war?
War results when someone initiates it. So how do you stop that someone?
In this case, Palestinians elected Hamas. Subsequently they made it their goal to commit genocide against the Jews. They acted on that blood-lust, hence this thread. Israel has a right to defend itself. You say war is stupid, but who is going to go to Gaza to put their bodies on-the-line to stand between Hamas and Israel to insist that both stop fighting? Who is going to make-up for the murder of over 1,200 people by the Palestinians?

PS: It is my understanding, based on the news reporting, that many of the people killed in Israel actually felt a degree of sympathy for the Palestinian cause. The Palestinians did not hesitate to kill them. So if one group of people purposely go out to kill others, how do you propose to prevent that?

NONE WERE SPARED: Women, Children, Elderly, Peace Activists, Holocaust Survivor — Victims of Hamas Attacks Faced ‘Evil Not Created Even by the Devil’

As the world sets its sights on the unprecedented surprise Hamas attack against Israel, emerging details of just how gruesome their tactics were have left many in the international community in complete shock over the “unimaginable horror” perpetrated against hundreds of innocent civilians, each...

www.breitbart.com

PS: PS:

'Egypt Has Enough Refugees': Support for Palestinians from Arab Countries Ends at Their Borders

Palestinians are discovering that none of the Arab countries that claim to love them are willing to accept them as refugees.

www.breitbart.com

Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are discovering that none of the Arab countries that claim to love them as brothers are willing to accept them as refugees.

 

[AccessBlaster]

What about the US and the spy agencies in the UK and EU? Did any of them know and not tell Israel?

Egypt warned Israel days before Hamas struck, US committee chairman says

But Israel's PM describes any claim it received a specific warning as "totally fake news".

www.bbc.com

 

[The_Doc_Man]

@Edgar_ - this is a controversial subject because Islamic apologists say that the statements are taken out of context, but others point out that true believers of Islam must take the Quran as a whole.

Surah 2:191 says "And kill them (non-Muslims) wherever you find them … kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers (non-Muslims)."

Surah 3:151 says "We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve (all non-Muslims) …"

Surah 9:5 says "Then kill the disbelievers (non-Muslims) wherever you find them, capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush …"

It is difficult to NOT cherry-pick the Quran when it contains verses such as the above. However, in all fairness, there are those Islamic scholars who say that the Quran forbids killing of innocent people. There are those who say that those who kill in the name of Islam are poor students of Islam, which does not condone killing.

What is clear is either the apologists are lying OR Hamas is a bunch of people fighting out of pure hatred using the Quran as justification for just plain being wicked. But no matter how you cut it, you make a very naive statement. You say "just stop the war." But that is SO totally unrealistic that I cannot believe you honestly believe it is possible. With dancing, it takes two to tango. But with armed conflicts, it only takes one to start the proceedings and the other party then has the choice to fight back or lie down and die. To stop the war you must intervene somehow, and radical disaffected youth has a poor track record of stopping without forcibly being stopped.

 

[Edgar_]

Who is not going to allow war?

Uh... in your same post:

Palestinians elected Hamas

The answer is in your post: Democracy. I mean, actual democracy, not privately funded politician democracy. I mean true democracy, where one person = one vote. I don't know where you're from, but if it's the US, that's not a democracy, that's... something else.

So yeah, many things you can do:
- being careful about who you vote for
- choosing leaders who want peace
- supporting peace-focused policies
- not buying products from companies that exploit other countries
- limiting the power of big companies in politics by changing the way they fund campaigns
- asking for laws that stop extreme people from gaining power
- speaking out against war publicly

Just to name a few things.

@The_Doc_Man
Threads like this are remarkably f****d up, man. "Hey, pick your side, who do you think should die first?" come on. I did not say "just stop the war", I said, wars are stupid, stop supporting them. I've read snippets of threads in the watercooler, it's f****d up, some people here seem to enjoy conflict and then throw superficial analyses like "oh must be because they're just evil". Seriously? And you say I make naive statements? naive multi factorial statements where I even mention the irrefutable root cause of the conflict instead of the simple minded "they're just evil" statement?

I don't know, the redundancy here is making me wonder if I'm talking to AI.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

@Edgar_

EDITED BY THE_DOC_MAN: Since it caused confusion, I am changing the comments:

E: So yeah, many things you can do:
R: and my response to same.
E: being careful about who you vote for
R: good advice any time. Here we strongly agree.
E: choosing leaders who want peace
R: politicians in the USA will ALWAYS say they want peace, but who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? (cribbed quote from The Shadow)
E: supporting peace-focused policies
R: see prior item and response, and LAST item and responses.
E: not buying products from companies that exploit other countries
R: try finding them first. Then if your purchases include medicinals, good luck on finding alternatives.
E: limiting the power of big companies in politics by changing the way they fund campaigns
R: tried that, but turns out there's this pesky little thing called freedom of speech. Supreme Court ruled on it.
R: as has been mentioned, "no money to be made in peace." so why would big companies like peace?
E: asking for laws that stop extreme people from gaining power
R: see U.S. Constitution regarding qualifications for elected federal offices. No mention of "extreme" in the qualifications.
R: see U.S. Bill of Rights regarding freedom of speech, so we even get AOC and Ilan Omar in Congress.
E: speaking out against war publicly
R: do you suppose that the Ukrainian people publicly spoke out against war after they were invaded for the second time?
R: do you suppose that the Israeli people publicly spoke out against war after the most recent invasion?
R: did you study your history enough to know how many people spoke out against war after the bombing of Pearl Harbor?

I don't know, the redundancy here is making me wonder if I'm talking to AI.

If the redundancy is repeating the truth, perhaps it isn't A.I. but rather,... it is truth.

 

[Edgar_]

Doc, I did mention the US is not a democracy, it's something else. The list of suggestions demands that you live in a country where people actually have a say, which is not the case there (I think).

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

I note @The_Doc_Man 's use of naive did not contain the "diaeresis" = naïve....

This piqued my interest because I have recently been reading an old book which uses the "diaeresis" spelling of naïve.

I had a little chat with ChatGPT about this and discovered that both spellings are correct, but in modern spelling the diaeresis has dropped out of common use.

Interestingly, I discovered that the New Yorker newspaper persists in using the diaeresis, to the annoyance of some of its readers.

It's also interesting to note that I instinctively know how to pronounce cooperate and zoology without the diaeresis.

Also if I try to pronounce the damn word I get into a complete tongue tied situation and sound like an imbecile!

 

[Steve R.]

@Edgar_ : You posited: "we should not be allowing them, [war]". You did not answer the question of who is going to prevent war. Who is this magical all powerful person who would have that capability?

You did go on to say that society, as a whole, can prevent war through "democracy". Yes a democracy can prevent war, but that is based on a false premise that a "democracy" may not want war. What if the "democracy" does want war? In this case the Palestinians as a society have elected to implement a genocidal war. The Israelis, as a society, have elected to participate in war by aggressively fighting back against the barbaric Palestinians to protect themselves.

 

[Jon]

So, I ask, should Palestine attack Israel? No. Should Israel attack Palestine? No.

I agree with the first part. But when you say Israel should not attack Palestine, you are saying they have no right to defend themselves. This is wrong. Remember that it always starts from one side, the Palestinian side. Israelis just want to live in peace, unlike the Palestinians. And the fact that the warmongering Palestinians are targeting civilians and infants shows that they are animals, where they do not care if they kill the innocent, for that is who they are targeting. There is a big difference between collateral damage to civilians and targeting civilians.

And remember that the Palestinian civilians voted in this murderous regime. Surely they knew what their intentions were? Or did Hamas conceal their position prior to being democratically elected? Their suffering due to war is self-inflicted.

Edit: After further reading, it appears that the civilians in 2006 voted in a government who's position was clear: the destruction of Israel. That means war. It is a path they chose. The previous government was open to a two state solution. That was rejected. So the majority of Palestinian civilians appear to want war, not peace. That explains the 25K+ rockets fired at Israel over the last 20 years. And then they appear outraged when faced with retaliation. Yet they are the first domino. They knew what would happen, but still pushed it.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Doc, I did mention the US is not a democracy, it's something else. The list of suggestions demands that you live in a country where people actually have a say, which is not the case there (I think).

The implications of this statement are that you posit a true democracy, in which case all you need is a nation with 50.01% of its population as warmongers and 49.99% as peace lovers, and you get war anyway. This is called "the tyranny of the majority." I offer the thought that in Gaza, the followers of Hamas and their ultra-violent policies make up considerably more than 50.01% of their population.

The only way that a country can prevent its own people from starting a war is to arrest the warmongers before they go far enough. See also George Orwell's 1984 as a discussion of thought control. Try real hard to not cringe when you compare it to where we are going in the USA right now.

 

[Steve R.]

The only way that a country can prevent its own people from starting a war is to arrest the warmongers before they go far enough.

@Edgar_ :

• Assuming that you have a valid democracy, what would the justification be for arresting those who want war?
• Isn't a discussion between anti-war and pro-war elements part of a vibrant democratic process?
• Should the majority of the society approve of a war, then war represents a successful application of democracy.
• In the event that the democracy has legally voted for war, would you obstruct the will of the people by subverting the democracy to force the implementation of peace? That would expose you as an enemy-of-the-state, subject to arrest.

 

[Pat Hartman]

If these people lived in comfort and had access to the same opportunities as their counterparts, would they still seek conflict?

Do you think that Osama Bin Laden didn't have all the earthly comforts he wanted as he was growing up? He came from a very wealthy Saudi family. Why did he hate America? Many wealthy Muslims have homes in the US or other western countries. WHY? So they can get away from living under the thumb of Sharia Law?

hold on, is it religion hate?

Yes. You really need to read some of the Koran. Then you might try having the females in your family read some Sharia Law to see how Islam thinks about women.

Put yourself in the shoes of a Palestinian living in the remnants of their homeland, witnessing Israeli citizens prospering in areas they can no longer inhabit for reasons as old as thousands of years.

You might want to read a little history. What was the Palestine Mandate like BEFORE the Jews started coming home? It was a poor, sleepy backwater still living in the 9th century. With the returning Jews came modern farming practices and prosperity. The kibbutz's worked with their neighbors whenever the neighbors were willing. The Arabs CHOOSE to live the way they had always lived. Just as they do in much of the rest of the world.

Pretty sure it's the economic system, which thrives in times of war, by predating its two primary natural resources: human life and nature.

You might want to look into all the money that pours into Hezbollah and Hamas. What if some of that money were used to improve the infrastructure in Gaza instead of buying bombs to lob over the border deliberately trying to kill NON COMBATANTS? Even the US sends these evil groups money. That's how stupid we are.

The Human Resources and Payroll systems I created for the government of Kuwait back in the 70's attempted to implement Sharia Law which is why I had to read it to figure out the rules AND one of the very few payroll deductions was the FORCED contribution to the PLO from the paychecks of all Palestinian refugees living in the country. In the US, payroll systems are all about deductions and have few "entitlements". In Kuwait, it was just the opposite. It was all about "entitlements" and the PLO contribution was one of the rare deductions. Sharia Law looks at the world from a very different perspective than does western law. For example, none of the refugees from Israel or Lebanon (which was hot at the time I was in Kuwait) could ever become citizens of Kuwait. A woman who married a Kuwaiti man had to convert to Islam and she couldn't become a citizen for 25 years. Her children, regardless of where they were born were NOT Kuwaitti UNLESS their father said they were. A woman had no right to her own children unless the father allowed it. Women were not allowed to leave the country without the permission of their husband or father or other male relative. No non-Kuwaiti could ever own more than 49% of any business and was expected to put up 100% of the financing.

- asking for laws that stop extreme people from gaining power

Would this be controlled by the same people who don't believe in free speech? You know, the ones who are pushing to keep Trump off the ballot because half the country is so stupid they would vote for him? If you can't win clean, stack the deck is their motto.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

@Pat Hartman
Just for the record, the segment you just quoted had a dash in front of it, which (in the post from which you lifted that) meant I was quoting Edgar_ and responding with asterisk bullets as comments on his statements.