Attack on Israel

[Pat Hartman]

Thanks, I realized that after I posted.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Also if I try to pronounce the damn word I get into a complete tongue tied situation and sound like an imbecile!

But Uncle G... you are one of our FAVORITE imbeciles!

Naive with and without the diaeresis... is that going to devolve into an aluminum/aluminium discussions? (And I note that since my web browser is USA in origin, it puts the spell-check highlight on aluminium.)

And I note you have the letter ash (looks like a conjoined ae) broken up into two letters in diaeresis. But that's OK, we hardly ever use it any more.

We used to have six more letters in the English alphabet

There was once a letter for the throaty sound you find in "Bach" and the Scottish "loch."

qz.com

But I digress... back to the attack on Israel - which in this case would NOT be using conjoined ae and does not involve a diaeresis.

 

[Edgar_]

I can't possibly respond to all of your questions.

You all keep saying Hamas, the biggest concentration camp worldwide with no human rights, no electricity, no water, no services, totally BLOCKED from development, started some attack on Israel, the white pigeon of peace, which features people holding hands with rainbows everywhere, cotton candy clouds and a baby faced sun on the horizon. What a disgraceful attack that was. How could they not cope with Israel's magnificent development? Israel can even predict the next middle east map, cough, cough, without Palestine, cough.

Yeah... those religious loving animals should be wiped out because that attack was so unfair. All those attack ships approaching the area are totally justified and they will only grab what little gas they find in the place for their return journey home.

I'm totally not saying Israel provoked this, that thought is outrageous.

You're all right. I was saying nonsense.

 

[Steve R.]

The barbarian attack by Hamas on Israeli has the potential to raise some future significant geopolitical concerns. Two speculative scenarios that may or may not play-out.

• Iran has a nuclear bomb. They are simply waiting for an appropriate opportunity to use it. The Palestinians have very effective propaganda machine. Israel will be grinding Hamas into the ground, but it will come at a cost. Based on prior Hamas/Israeli conflicts, the press will soon begin publishing propaganda stories of Israel "atrocities", complete with pictures of dead mutilated Palestinian babies. This process of demonizing Israel has already begun: Top American colleges seek to quell anti-Israel sentiment in wake of Hamas attacks, and Humanitarians call for urgent aid access to Gaza. No apparent concern by the UN for those murdered or injured in Israel. To protect the oppressed Palestinians from this evil Israeli genocide (sarcasm), Iran will use its nuke on Israel without the fear of a public/media backlash since Iran will be perceived as the savior of the Palestinians.
• China Invades Taiwan. The US military is stretched thin. We are supporting a war in the Ukraine, which is consuming our available military supplies. Now there is a new conflict in the middle east where we have justly promised to help Israel with its military supplies. This raises the issue of increasing the production of ordinance to support military actions. This has apparently not yet happened. The Biden administration has been weakening the US military. Recruitment levels are down and many people in the military were also dismissed over the past several years for Covid reason. Finally, the US will be having a presidential election in 2024. The Chinese may figure that if Biden can't win in 2024, that invading Taiwan in the very near future may be their best bet.

The two scenarios above are pure speculation. They may or they may not play-out. According to the doomsday clock, as of January 2023, we are at 90 seconds before midnight. What are your thoughts?

 

[Steve R.]

Exclusive—Gov. Kristi Noem: Protecting the Promised Land

Israel embraces democracy; their military strength is a shield for us in a dangerous land; and they are our friends.

www.breitbart.com

The article above is garbage. It is a puff article promoting Noem that uses the Hamas attack on Israel for political advantage. Noem may be a really good governor, but that is not the concern with this post. My concern is that this article fails to comprehend that the West, since the end of WWI, has essentially abandoned the Middle East to the Islamists. So it is very disingenuous for the headline to include the phrase "protecting the promised land". Once the current conflict ends, the west will probably go back to abandoning the Middle East to the Islamists. This issue was partially reviewed in post post #60. The West is committing cultural sucide and this article fails to recognize that.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I can't possibly respond to all of your questions.

You all keep saying Hamas, the biggest concentration camp worldwide with no human rights, no electricity, no water, no services, totally BLOCKED from development, started some attack on Israel, the white pigeon of peace, which features people holding hands with rainbows everywhere, cotton candy clouds and a baby faced sun on the horizon. What a disgraceful attack that was. How could they not cope with Israel's magnificent development? Israel can even predict the next middle east map, cough, cough, without Palestine, cough.

Yeah... those religious loving animals should be wiped out because that attack was so unfair. All those attack ships approaching the area are totally justified and they will only grab what little gas they find in the place for their return journey home.

I'm totally not saying Israel provoked this, that thought is outrageous.

You're all right. I was saying nonsense.

Edgar, no one country or group is blameless here because of a totally missing commodity in that part of the world. Trust. Every time Israel decides to trust the citizens of Gaza, Hamas betrays the trust. Every time the people at the bargaining table decide to trust Israel, some agent provacateur fires off yet another attack. This time it was Hamas. In the past, it has been ISIS, Hezbollah, and other pro-Islamic groups have stuck their noses into the pie, too.

If it were possible to trust everyone involved to just not shoot another damned missile, things could cool down and a more meaningful level of trust could be developed. But war is like gasoline. One little spark and <<<BANG ZOOM>>> off we go again. I have to ask you this, and try to not ignore the answer. Which group struck the match this time? DON'T tell me who gathered the tinder. DON'T tell me who stockpiled this or that. I want you to answer this question: Who struck the match that lit this bonfire?

Israel is reacting harshly to a harsh reality they have faced before. But you want to know why they are so non-trusting of the people of Gaza? Have you ever heard this old saying: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on ME." Then start counting how many times in the past Israel has tried to de-escalate only to be attacked again.

I don't think you are saying nonsense. I think you have a limited historical viewpoint which jaundices your comments. You see it one way. Some of us remember the years of Muslim provocations against Israel including the infamous Six Day War. And some of us - me, for example - have Jewish ancestors who fled yet another pogrom, who took part in yet another diaspora. (To be specific, the family name was Heidenheim, and they fled from Tours, France in the late 1700s/early 1800s for south Louisiana.) Some of us know the hardships the Jews endured for being a people mentioned in the Bible and still living to this day.

 

[Steve R.]

The article below is parody that highlights the massive cognitive dissonance of those on the "left".

Columbia Student Leaves Lecture On Microaggressions To Attend ‘Kill The Jews’ Rally

NEW YORK, NY — A Columbia University student later identified as Luke Dillon left a lecture on microaggressions a little early so he could make it to the "Kill the Jews" rally on time.

babylonbee.com

The University happily hosted the rally for mass murder and ra** after being assured that no one would be misgendered. "Hate speech has no place here at Harvard," assured President Claudine Gay. "We affirm everyone's right, regardless of gender, to feel safe to express their deep hatred and longing to kill Jewish people. That's why Harvard is more than a school - it's a family."

 

[Edgar_]

@The_Doc_Man Hamas attacked Israel. That seems to be a fact.

Why? That's what I've been approaching. By questioning what's happening, you can discover more information and avoid falling for mere propaganda and fake news. This approach has been quite helpful for me. It's up to others to decide what they want to believe or do with the insights I've provided.

Edit: I also think it's sad that foreigners to the conflict WANT the death of others.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Edgar, I will make this clear. I do NOT want the death of others. I am not a fatalist, but at the moment I don't see a way for this to stop. Tensions are far too high. I am saddened by the event and saddened by the perceived need for continued conflict. When emotions run too high, it takes a long time for them to die down. Immediately after Pearl Harbor, 97% of Americans were ready to fight.

(Gallup Poll: https://news.gallup.com/vault/199049/gallup-vault-country-unified-pearl-harbor.aspx )

I've tried to find polls during the war to see if that attitude softened any, but so far I'm striking out on the search. Must not be holding my mouth right or something like that.

In any case, I think at this time Israel is in a unified war-hawk state. They are prepared to run that Gaza gauntlet. There is an old saying about tough times: When you are going through Hell, keep going. (Don't stop to sight-see.) Well, the only way I see for Israel to get out of this particular corner of Hell is to keep going until they've had their fill. When overcome by anger, rage, or desire for revenge, it is hard to entertain thoughts of peace or humanitarian behavior as anything other than a memory. This is my cynical, slightly pessimistic, but also I think realistic viewpoint.

 

[AccessBlaster]

Wouldn't it be easier to just say I support most Palestinians but not Hamas? That way you don't have to jump through hoops to make your humanitarian point.

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

Just saw a Tucker Carlson interview where he was interviewing republican nominee

Vivek Ramaswamy​

I get the distinct impression that Vivek is concerned that the intelligence agencies, both America and Israel didn't know what was going to happen in advance and he thinks that's a bit strange.

So looking over the pond with a large telescope and a lot of obscurity, I would ask the question why the usually expert intelligence agencies of both America and Israel that I understand work closely together, why have they missed the development of this atrocity.

Was there interference from the Biden government?

If so why?
Sometimes a war is beneficial to a political goal?

Would it be possible for the Biden government to pressurize the intelligence service in such a way to suppress the knowledge of these developments? Seems unlikely, but suppression happened on January 6 th.

Please enlighten a very puzzled Brit.

I welcome comments from both republicans and democrats israelis and Palestinians as long as they are conducted with good etiquette.

 

[AccessBlaster]

Just saw a Tucker Carlson interview where he was interviewing republican nominee

Vivek Ramaswamy​

I get the distinct impression that Vivek is concerned that the intelligence agencies, both America and Israel didn't know what was going to happen in advance and he thinks that's a bit strange.

So looking over the pond with a large telescope and a lot of obscurity, I would ask the question why the usually expert intelligence agencies of both America and Israel that I understand work closely together, why have they missed the development of this atrocity.

Was there interference from the Biden government?

If so why?
Sometimes a war is beneficial to a political goal?

Would it be possible for the Biden government to pressurize the intelligence service in such a way to suppress the knowledge of these developments? Seems unlikely, but suppression happened on January 6 th.

Please enlighten a very puzzled Brit.

I welcome comments from both republicans and democrats israelis and Palestinians as long as they are conducted with good etiquette.

In post #69 I linked to an article where Egypt had warned of a attack.

 

[spaLOGICng]

While I am known to show atheist tendencies, I have to say that religion has no lock on inflaming Man's inhumane traits. Politics and greed are also contributors. Also, total stubbornness is a big factor. I'll bet some folks are ready to ask me if I'm feeling well by not bashing religion - but I believe that in this case, religion is not a primary cause. This is one of those older factors that, in Germany in the early 20th century, was called Lebensraum - literally, room or space to live and (implied) to grow.

Despite it being a wise piece of advice, "live and let live" doesn't usually work very well because it seems to only take a short while for the "anger pot" to bubble over. Folks (like Hamas) can only live and let live for a while before they want more without regard for who would lose if they win. For them, it is the inability to see others as equally deserving people. Religion often tries with basic principles that should - but apparently do not - stick well with their congregations. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Hamas launched deadly rocket attacks, so Israel did unto them what they had done to Israel. Well, DUH! What did they expect?

Sadly, we have an inbred trait we got through evolution... call it "territoriality" or "tribalism" or pick another name. Our saurian ancestors needed a certain amount of territory to provide adequate food, so the thunder lizards defended that territory against intruders. Now we protect our territory (or try to) against all who are different. It would represent a big diversion for this thread but I believe a case could be made that at base, Americans object to illegal immigrants as an offshoot of this some inherited evolutionary factor - the protection of me and mine against thee and thine, which is another form of tribalism.

Whether you are Atheist or not, Religion, Economics, and Politics, as you mentioned, is always the case. Religion is used to justify it without saying it.

I, as a believer in Christianity, regardless of narrative, will always sum it up as Isaac and Ishmael fighting until the end of time. Christians and Jews will always be hated by Islam. Peace is only temporary, but the fight will always be until the end of time. I expect it.

Nothing is new under the sun.

 

[spaLOGICng]

Just saw a Tucker Carlson interview where he was interviewing republican nominee

Vivek Ramaswamy​

I get the distinct impression that Vivek is concerned that the intelligence agencies, both America and Israel didn't know what was going to happen in advance and he thinks that's a bit strange.

So looking over the pond with a large telescope and a lot of obscurity, I would ask the question why the usually expert intelligence agencies of both America and Israel that I understand work closely together, why have they missed the development of this atrocity.

Was there interference from the Biden government?

If so why?
Sometimes a war is beneficial to a political goal?

Would it be possible for the Biden government to pressurize the intelligence service in such a way to suppress the knowledge of these developments? Seems unlikely, but suppression happened on January 6 th.

Please enlighten a very puzzled Brit.

I welcome comments from both republicans and democrats israelis and Palestinians as long as they are conducted with good etiquette.

I believe it was rather impromptu and that is why they did not see it.

Why impromptu? Why not exploit the US Government when they are at their lowest point! The just ousted the speaker and cannot really broker a peace deal until there is a speaker voted in. It is kind of like when the cat is away, the mice will play.

Once the speaker is voted in, things will calm down. But they will never stop fighting in one way or the other. It is etched in stone.

 

[NauticalGent]

will always sum it up as Isaac and Ishmael fighting until the end of time.

Exactly. Both sides feel their "champion" as the rightful hier. Until that is settled, and it simply never will, there will always be conflict over the "holy" land...

 

[AccessBlaster]

...there will always be conflict over the "holy" land...

Almost like it was written somewhere

 

[spaLOGICng]

Almost like it was written somewhere

It was, indeed, it was!

 

[jpl458]

Religion is the root of all evil.
Col

Here Here!

 

[Pat Hartman]

You all keep saying Hamas, the biggest concentration camp worldwide with no human rights, no electricity, no water, no services, totally BLOCKED from development, started some attack on Israel,

I guess time has no meaning for you. Today, AFTER the barbaric attacks on UNARMED Israeli CIVILIANS last week, you are correct. Israel cut off the spigot and will not turn it back on until the hostages are released. Seems like a fair trade to me. You want food and water and electricity turned back on immediately, give back the hostages. Prior to the barbaric attacks last Saturday, the spigot was on and there was plenty of water and power and food so please remove those fake statements from your reasons to justify the barbaric attacks on UNARMED Israeli CIVILIANS. They are the effect of the evil attack Not the cause of it.

According to the timeline, Gaza has been self-governing for ~ 20 years. The people of Gaza ELECTED Hamas to govern them. So, rather than improve the lives of the citizens of Gaza, Hamas spends all its money on weapons and munitions so they can use them to kill UNARMED Israeli CITIZENS. Why? Because that is what the citizens of Gaza elected them to do. I'm sure if Hamas wanted to pay for power generation plants and desalination plants, they could but they'd have to divert money allocated to killing Jews to make it happen.

Israel does control the border with Gaza though because when it is open, terrorists come through and kill UNARMED Israeli CIVILIANS. There's a real solution there also. Gaza is free to trade with Egypt and the rest of the world via shipping. I'm not sure when the border was closed but I understand the reason. The Jews don't have a death wish the way the Muslims do.

The world sends hundreds of millions, maybe billians to Hamas every year. They probably have enough income from their victimhood to make Gazaa a paradise here on earth. One thing though. If they were to do that, the money train would slow to a trickle.

Israel is going to level Gaza. They keep telling the civilians to evacuate. Hamas is telling them to stay put. Who has the safety of the citizens of Gaza at heart? It sure isn't Hamas who lobs their missiles from schools and hospitals rather than military installations. Why? Because they know that the Israelis' value life, even theirs and will do their best to minimize civilian casualties. Watch what happens when the civilians actually try to evacuate. Do you think Egypt or Saudi Arabia will step up and take them in - - fat chance. They don't want the terrorists in their midst. Israel should probably just build a trench for their border with Gaza and seal all the tunnels.

 

[Steve R.]

Israel cut off the spigot and will not turn it back on until the hostages are released.

The Israeli mission should be to eradicate Hamas. Working on getting the hostages released would be a distraction from that mission (assuming that they are still alive and that they would not be immediately killed with any rescue attempt. War is a dirty business). We have to put an end to the cycle of recovering hostages by granting concessions to terrorists only to have that recycle (over and over again).

As a tangential thought, Israeli should encourage the Palestinians to "revolt" against Hamas, take the hostages away from Hamas, turnover Hamas terrorist to Israel and finally surrender to Israel. That may be a bit difficult since the Palestinians seem to have drunk the Hamas "tea".

According to the timeline, Gaza has been self-governing for ~ 20 years. The people of Gaza ELECTED Hamas to govern them. So, rather than improve the lives of the citizens of Gaza, Hamas spends all its money on weapons and munitions so they can use them to kill UNARMED Israeli CITIZENS.

The residents of Gaza have chosen to live in squalor to repurpose the aid they receive and their own productivity into weapons to kill Israelis. They appear to consumed by so much hate, that they don't try to improve their own lives. As your wrote:

The world sends hundreds of millions, maybe billians to Hamas every year. They probably have enough income from their victimhood to make Gazaa a paradise here on earth.

Finally as @Pat Hartman notes; the other Islamic states, as a humanitarian gesture, currently do not want to accept the Palestinians. The Palestinians are cannon fodder useful for propaganda purposes. The Islamic states will falsely assert that the plight of the Palestinians is the result of Israeli genocide. The Islamic states want the Palestinians to suffer, buy don't want to admit that they are the cause of that suffering.