Continued theology discussion... Not sure what to call this really....

[scott-atkinson]

I personally dont believe that religion has a place in the modern world, I perceive that evantually it will be confined to the history books, as the Greek GODS, Roman GODS, Egyption GODS have, I also feel that Religion is inplace to control people to ensure that people do what it is some people want them to do.

Religion in my opinion is the one biggest factor in all worldy conflicts, and quite frankly the human race is probably the closest it has been to anhilation that it has ever been, what with religious factions sparring amongst each other, Muslims, Hindhus, Christians...etc

That in my opinion is why countries like Iran, Afghnistan and their ilke do not want democracy as this means the degredation of religion and the loss of control of its populace..

If different religions could be tollerant of each other and lived alongside each other in harmony then we would all be better off and a great deal safer, but while their are persons who claim divine right in their way over somebody elses we will never live in harmony..

The modern world could do without Religion, lets all watch MTV instead, and play on our Xboxes, and watch 3D movies..

 

[Fifty2One]

The facts I put forth is that I beleive in God and that it has been documented that monotheism has been followed for as long as records have been kept or passed along from person to person.
My belief in God I believe is self-evident by me being alive to type this post. I believe there is only one God and other persons who worship who they understand to be God would obviously be giving homage to the same God.
I was pointing out that you have not read the book in its entirety so how would you be able to throw credible arguements relating to palaeontology, anthropology, politics from 2000 years ago, fairys, leprechons and despot leaders from World War II?

What is equally pathetic, (to use your own description) is that your belief cannot be backed up with "FACTS" either

 

[Thales750]

I haven't been reading this but I already know what's been going on. The Atheist Church is in session.

LOL

 

[georgedwilkinson]

I haven't been reading this but I already know what's been going on. The Atheist Church is in session.

LOL

Actually, it has been pretty civil (what little I've had time to read). I honestly lost track night before last.

 

[scott-atkinson]

The facts I put forth is that I beleive in God and that it has been documented that monotheism has been followed for as long as records have been kept or passed along from person to person.
My belief in God I believe is self-evident by me being alive to type this post. I believe there is only one God and other persons who worship who they understand to be God would obviously be giving homage to the same God.
I was pointing out that you have not read the book in its entirety so how would you be able to throw credible arguements relating to palaeontology, anthropology, politics from 2000 years ago, fairys, leprechons and despot leaders from World War II?

I appreciate your comments, but I believe that the FACTS that Rich was referring too was hard facts, facts that you can see and feel, and not just a book or sample of documents..

I could write that I am a millionaire with a flash house and car, but it don't make it real.

The bible tells of Jesus Christ as a man of miracles the son of God, but this was written probably some hundren years after he supposedly died and has been interpreted and re-written many times since, we all know how Chinese Whipsers work..

What absolute 100% cast iron evidence do you have that says that Jesus Christ was the son of a God and that even God exists?

I dont mean to be questioning your existance of faith, I am just used to believing in things that I can see and feel.

 

[oumahexi]

Oh christ! a silent sulking woman as the boss, I've met enough of them already

LOL, I'm sure the joiner dreams of such a woman

Oh, I see, this isn't in my Bible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesiasticus

Hmm, seems like you'd get more support if all Christians were "singing from the same hymn sheet"?

While I dont agree with some of what has been said by Rich & Chergh, I think by your statement it has caused an interesting perspective..

In an earlier post between you and me we established that you perceived that the Muslim and Hindhu faith was wrong and that all that practiced those faiths were 'EVIL' and would not got to heaven..

It is interesting that when Rich and Chergh have quite agressively questioned your faith that you have responded with this comment..

Now perhaps you understand how a Muslim or a Hindhu feels when they are have constantly been persecuted through the ages in the name of Christianity..

That is why we are having conflicts on this planet..

I think the orginal statement was rather aggressive, to call someone "evil" just because they don't believe the same as you, IMHO, is much the same as saying they are evil because the don't vote the same as you! Why did God give us free will if we're not allowed to use it for fear of going to the burning fire

 

[oumahexi]

What absolute 100% cast iron evidence do you have that says that Jesus Christ was the son of a God and that even God exists?

I dont mean to be questioning your existance of faith, I am just used to believing in things that I can see and feel.

To put it into context, the bible actually says that Jesus said he was the son of man and we are all the sons of God. He preached of the holy trinity (The Father, son and holy ghost - who, incidently causes children to have bad dreams just beccause of his name). These are all aspects of the self, the mind, body and spirit. I think what he was saying is that we are all the same, and we should work toward that perfect harmony within ourselves before we start trying to tell others how to run their lives - oh wait, that was something he said wasn't it "let him without sin cast the first stone" ah well. That's my theory, when all's said and done, son of God, son of Mary the woman who had to rush down the altar, regardless, from the stories I've heard of him he was a good man and if we could all live the way he suggested it would be the most fab planet in the multiverse, but we can't so I doubt that it is.

 

[Fifty2One]

I never posted any reference to Jesus Christ.
Yes, the Bible was written after Jesus Christ walked the earth in human form, many things are written after the fact and rewritten and edited and modified, not just the Bible. Arguably then anything written on the internet about events prior to 1989 are after the fact and may or may not be the actual facts and could have been interpreted and re-written.
I do not have to see AND feel to believe. I can not see love but I know it exists, I can not feel the stars but I can see them so I know they exist. I can feel the love of God and I can see Gods work, so I believe God must exist.

I appreciate your comments, but I believe that the FACTS that Rich was referring too was hard facts, facts that you can see and feel, and not just a book or sample of documents..

I could write that I am a millionaire with a flash house and car, but it don't make it real.

The bible tells of Jesus Christ as a man of miracles the son of God, but this was written probably some hundren years after he supposedly died and has been interpreted and re-written many times since, we all know how Chinese Whipsers work..

What absolute 100% cast iron evidence do you have that says that Jesus Christ was the son of a God and that even God exists?

I dont mean to be questioning your existance of faith, I am just used to believing in things that I can see and feel.

 

[Kryst51]

LOL, I'm sure the joiner dreams of such a woman



Hmm, seems like you'd get more support if all Christians were "singing from the same hymn sheet"?


I think the orginal statement was rather aggressive, to call someone "evil" just because they don't believe the same as you, IMHO, is much the same as saying they are evil because the don't vote the same as you! Why did God give us free will if we're not allowed to use it for fear of going to the burning fire

Good Morning Ouma - I think it is well known that Catholicism and Protestantism are two very different thinking sects of the Christian faith, and though I don't know why Catholics chose to include the Apocrypha in their Bible, and the Protestants did not, I am sure each can back up why.

I sincerely understand why Chergh would be upset with a God who called someone evil simply for being born a woman. But the God I know created me in His image, and values me as a woman as much as He does any man. Any evilness is shared by all of humanity, which I have previously stated, and I share just as completely in that burden. I could list my sins starting now and not finish until the day I die. So please don't think that I don't recognize errors in my actions ever.

I don't think anyone is evil b/c they don't share the same opinion as me, I think everyone is evil because that's the way we are born. We don't always act so, as God's hand is on this Earth, and He has not left us completely in the hands of Satan, So there is some good on the Earth because of that, and people are capable of goodness because of that. I also want to iterate that I don't hate anyone, I don't wish anyone dead because they don't agree with me, and I hold no cintinued anger towards anyone. So, this is for Chergh too, my apologies for misunderstanding the intent of Chergh's statement. I never even consider the Apocrypha, it's not part of my scope and never has been. I've never read from it my entire life until now. And I am glad that I don't given the verses you have cited from it. As to the parts that are from the Protestant Bible as well, that is misunderstood so much among even Christians and many debates exist within the Christian realm concerning those things. But, I want to stress, not to convince you, but to help you to understand me, These things aren't what they seem, God is unchangeing, culture is not, Paul in this letter was trying to prevent division and strife in that church, and to give reasoning behind these things. There are othe rplaces where Paul talks about how husbands are to treat their wives and children, that should be just as convicting. As far as law is concerned. The Bible commands sacrifices for different things in the Old Testament, but we no longer do those, and that is because Christ came to fulfill and complete the law. So it is given new life, and I can eat pork if I wish.

 

[Adam Caramon]

I personally dont believe that religion has a place in the modern world, I perceive that evantually it will be confined to the history books, as the Greek GODS, Roman GODS, Egyption GODS have, I also feel that Religion is inplace to control people to ensure that people do what it is some people want them to do.

Religion in my opinion is the one biggest factor in all worldy conflicts, and quite frankly the human race is probably the closest it has been to anhilation that it has ever been, what with religious factions sparring amongst each other, Muslims, Hindhus, Christians...etc

That in my opinion is why countries like Iran, Afghnistan and their ilke do not want democracy as this means the degredation of religion and the loss of control of its populace..

If different religions could be tollerant of each other and lived alongside each other in harmony then we would all be better off and a great deal safer, but while their are persons who claim divine right in their way over somebody elses we will never live in harmony..

I hate to quote this much of a post, but I agree 100%. In the meantime, while religion is still a major part of life, I think we all need to learn that just because someone believes different than you does not mean they have to be your enemy. We can find common ground to discuss things.

I also think that we need to keep religion out of government, as politics is so chaotic as it is, there's no need to add one more way to divide us.

 

[Adam Caramon]

The facts I put forth is that I beleive in God and that it has been documented that monotheism has been followed for as long as records have been kept or passed along from person to person.

Where is this documented? I was under the understanding that monotheism was relatively new (2000-3000 years). I'd be very interested in reading this document(s) as I've never come across them before (and as I've said, I have studied religion extensively).

 

[Fifty2One]

1,5300,000 Monothesism links

Where is this documented? I was under the understanding that monotheism was relatively new (2000-3000 years). I'd be very interested in reading this document(s) as I've never come across them before (and as I've said, I have studied religion extensively).

 

[scott-atkinson]

I do not have to see AND feel to believe. I can not see love but I know it exists, I can not feel the stars but I can see them so I know they exist. I can feel the love of God and I can see Gods work, so I believe God must exist.

To be honest that was the answer I was expecting to get..

Let me phrase it another way, what would have to happen for you to believe that God did not exist?

 

[Adam Caramon]

1,5300,000 Monothesism links

Yes, I know what monotheism is, but you're claiming "that it has been documented that monotheism has been followed for as long as records have been kept or passed along from person to person."

If this is true, you should be able to point to where it is documented. And just FYI, since we're being smart now, you spelled "Monotheism" wrong in your hyperlink.

 

[scott-atkinson]

I hate to quote this much of a post, but I agree 100%. In the meantime, while religion is still a major part of life, I think we all need to learn that just because someone believes different than you does not mean they have to be your enemy. We can find common ground to discuss things.

I also think that we need to keep religion out of government, as politics is so chaotic as it is, there's no need to add one more way to divide us.

I agree with you Adam, if we all felt like this there would be no more hate and no more conflict based on religion..

Although knowing the Human race we would simply find something else to hate each other about

 

[Adam Caramon]

IAlthough knowing the Human race we would simply find something else to hate each other about

True. I'm reminded of the South Park futuristic episode where people fight over which version of atheism is the "One True Correct" version of atheism.

 

[Fifty2One]

I have no reason to expect that there is something which could convince me that God did not exist. I did venture to go into more detail in the past but you posted a reply which I understood as alluding to by beliefs involving drug use.

You really must introduce me to your dealer...

I might have been wrong but you never offered clarification to your statement so I feel I have countered enough with you.

To be honest that was the answer I was expecting to get..
Let me phrase it another way, what would have to happen for you to believe that God did not exist?

 

[Fifty2One]

It is referenced in the first link provided by Google and again in many of the other links even if your extensive study methods do not compell you to reseach all of the offered links.

Yes, I know what monotheism is, but you're claiming "that it has been documented that monotheism has been followed for as long as records have been kept or passed along from person to person."

If this is true, you should be able to point to where it is documented. And just FYI, since we're being smart now, you spelled "Monotheism" wrong in your hyperlink.

FYI
Sorry, I spelt a word wrong and it was not even an english word this time. I hope it did not confuse you or cause you deep concern like it would if Coline had seen it go unchecked or unnoticed.

 

[scott-atkinson]

I have no reason to expect that there is something which could convince me that God did not exist. I did venture to go into more detail in the past but you posted a reply which I understood as alluding to by beliefs involving drug use.

I might have been wrong but you never offered clarification to your statement so I feel I have countered enough with you.

Are you female, as only a women would drag something up that a man had said an eon ago


And as I remember from the post it was made on, it didn't make much sense, to me anyway, and had little substance, in my opinion, and the response was meant in humour.

If you cant be bothered to converse with me when I feel that I am trying to ask questions without being detrimental to you or your faith then so be it..

Just thought you were bigger than that...

 

[Adam Caramon]

It is referenced in the first link provided by Google and again in many of the other links even if your extensive study methods do not compell you to reseach all of the offered links.

Sorry, I am slow apparently. The first link is wikipedia, and this is what it shows for "Origin and development":

Origin and development:
 
The word [I][URL="http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/monotheism"][COLOR=#0000ff]monotheism[/COLOR][/URL][/I] is derived from the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek"][COLOR=#0000ff]Greek[/COLOR][/URL] [URL="http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BC%CF%8C%CE%BD%CE%BF%CF%82"][COLOR=#0000ff]μόνος[/COLOR][/URL][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotheism#cite_note-4"][COLOR=#0000ff][5][/COLOR][/URL] meaning "single" and [URL="http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B8%CE%B5%CF%8C%CF%82"][COLOR=#0000ff]θεός[/COLOR][/URL][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotheism#cite_note-5"][COLOR=#0000ff][6][/COLOR][/URL] meaning "[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_(male_deity)"][COLOR=#0000ff]God[/COLOR][/URL]".[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotheism#cite_note-6"][COLOR=#0000ff][7][/COLOR][/URL] The English term was first used by [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_More"][COLOR=#0000ff]Henry More[/COLOR][/URL] (1614–1687).
The concept sees a gradual development out of notions of [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism"][COLOR=#0000ff]henotheism[/COLOR][/URL] (worshiping a single god while accepting the existence or possible existence of other deities) and [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monolatrism"][COLOR=#0000ff]monolatrism[/COLOR][/URL] (the recognition of the existence of many gods, but with the consistent worship of only one deity). In the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Near_East"][COLOR=#0000ff]Ancient Near East[/COLOR][/URL], each [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cities_of_the_Ancient_Near_East"][COLOR=#0000ff]city[/COLOR][/URL] had a local patron deity, such as [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamash"][COLOR=#0000ff]Shamash[/COLOR][/URL] at [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larsa"][COLOR=#0000ff]Larsa[/COLOR][/URL] or [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin_(mythology)"][COLOR=#0000ff]Sin[/COLOR][/URL] at [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur"][COLOR=#0000ff]Ur[/COLOR][/URL]. The first claims of global supremacy of a specific god date to the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Bronze_Age"][COLOR=#0000ff]Late Bronze Age[/COLOR][/URL], with [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten"][COLOR=#0000ff]Akhenaten[/COLOR][/URL]'s [I][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Hymn_to_the_Aten"][COLOR=#0000ff]Great Hymn to the Aten[/COLOR][/URL][/I] (speculatively connected to [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism"][COLOR=#0000ff]Judaism[/COLOR][/URL] by [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmund_Freud"][COLOR=#0000ff]Sigmund Freud[/COLOR][/URL] in his [I][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_and_Monotheism"][COLOR=#0000ff]Moses and Monotheism[/COLOR][/URL][/I]). Currents of monism or monotheism emerge in [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_period"][COLOR=#0000ff]Vedic India[/COLOR][/URL] in the same period, with e.g. the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasadiya_Sukta"][COLOR=#0000ff]Nasadiya Sukta[/COLOR][/URL]. Philosophical monotheism and the associated concept of absolute [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_and_evil"][COLOR=#0000ff]good and evil[/COLOR][/URL] emerges in [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Antiquity"][COLOR=#0000ff]Classical Antiquity[/COLOR][/URL], notably with [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato"][COLOR=#0000ff]Plato[/COLOR][/URL] (c.f. [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma"][COLOR=#0000ff]Euthyphro dilemma[/COLOR][/URL]), elaborated into the idea of [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_(philosophy)"][COLOR=#0000ff]The One[/COLOR][/URL] in [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoplatonism"][COLOR=#0000ff]Neoplatonism[/COLOR][/URL], later culminating in the doctrines of [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christology"][COLOR=#0000ff]Christology[/COLOR][/URL] in [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Christianity"][COLOR=#0000ff]Early Christianity[/COLOR][/URL] and finally (by the 7th century) in the [I][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawhid"][COLOR=#0000ff]tawhid[/COLOR][/URL][/I] in [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam"][COLOR=#0000ff]Islam[/COLOR][/URL].
In Islamic theology, a person who spontaneously "discovers" monotheism is called a [I][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E1%B8%A4an%C4%ABf"][COLOR=#0000ff]ḥanīf[/COLOR][/URL][/I], the original [I]ḥanīf[/I] being [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham"][COLOR=#0000ff]Abraham[/COLOR][/URL].
Austrian anthropologist [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Schmidt"][COLOR=#0000ff]Wilhelm Schmidt[/COLOR][/URL] in the 1910s postulated an [I][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urmonotheismus"][COLOR=#0000ff]Urmonotheismus[/COLOR][/URL][/I], "original" or "primitive monotheism."

So instead of me having to construct your argument for you, or gather your evidence to support your claims for you, could you point out what part of this is evidence for: "that it has been documented that monotheism has been followed for as long as records have been kept or passed along from person to person."

FYI
Sorry, I spelt a word wrong and it was not even an english word this time. I hope it did not confuse you or cause you deep concern like it would if Coline had seen it go unchecked or unnoticed.

No confusion, but when you dish out disrespect, expect to receive it back.