Continued theology discussion... Not sure what to call this really....

[Rich]

If Genesis is true how do christians explain dinosaurs?

It's simple, god got fed up with playing with them and then like kids he found a new bunch of toys to play with, trouble is the new toys developed brains

 

[chergh]

trouble is the new toys developed brains

Some of them did, he still has republicans.

Anyway now I've stopped laughing at the answers to my dinosaur question I have another question:

Why are women not allowed to speak in church?

1 Corinthians 14

As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

You said above:

what God requires of me is the same now as it was for the first believers in Jesus Christ

From this we can believe that it would be shameful for you or any women to speak in church therefore you dont?

 

[Fifty2One]

I believe that God has put people on the earth and made differences in races, cultures and languages, I also believe that God has equipped all people with ways to honour and worship which fit in with each and every life. Though on a more spiritual level it would be the similar as trying to literally translate a statement from one language to another. Even when you do get the words to fit together to make sense in another language some of the spirit of the statement is lost. If someone is following the word of God and it has been given in a way that I do not understand, it does not discount their faith nor their relationship with God, it is just given a title and a ways that mean something to that person and to God.

I would say that what God requires of me is the same now as it was for the first believers in Jesus Christ.... Does it look the same way? Do I use the same music? No, it doesn't. I just thought you meant that the Muslim view of God and the way they worship is just as true as the Christian view of God and the way we worship. The purpose behind each is different and the God the worship is being performed for is also different. If I misunderstood your statement then I am sorry.

 

[Kryst51]

I believe that God has put people on the earth and made differences in races, cultures and languages, I also believe that God has equipped all people with ways to honour and worship which fit in with each and every life. Though on a more spiritual level it would be the similar as trying to literally translate a statement from one language to another. Even when you do get the words to fit together to make sense in another language some of the spirit of the statement is lost. If someone is following the word of God and it has been given in a way that I do not understand, it does not discount their faith nor their relationship with God, it is just given a title and a ways that mean something to that person and to God.

I don't think we are on the same wavelength here at all. Translating the Bible into different languages so that it can be understood by all is certainly a very valid form of spreading the truth about God. But there is only one way to Heaven, and that is through the Jesus Christ as I have previously discussed. Any other proclamation is not. That is why Christians are given the command to go and spread the good news, the Gospel, about Christ, so that all people have the opprotunity to come to Him. But you are right, all of creation declares His glory, unfortunately because of sin not all of creation is able to recognize it as such, and so create other gods, or ideas to worship instead of the One True God of the Bible.

But I understand that we don't agree on this, and that is certainly OK.

 

[Kryst51]

Some of them did, he still has republicans.

Anyway now I've stopped laughing at the answers to my dinosaur question I have another question:

Why are women not allowed to speak in church?

You said above:

From this we can believe that it would be shameful for you or any women to speak in church therefore you dont?

Unfortunately Chergh, I don't have time to answer every question, so maybe someone else has an answer. I am going to start trying to get to Adam Caramon's original questions first. I am sure there are more questions than these that you have. But suffice it to say, that my answers would not help you to see things any clearer, as I believe your question is meant to create argument for arguments sake. Your understanding of scripture cannot come from pulling a verse out of context, Read the whole book, and tell me what you think it means. The Bible is meant to be understood by anyone.

In my church specifically, though, women are not allowed to teach men in an official capacity. But women do teach other women and children. As a matter fact the head of our children's ministry is a woman.

 

[Rich]

Why are women not allowed to speak in church?





You said above:



From this we can believe that it would be shameful for you or any women to speak in church therefore you dont?

In conversations with many who took part in both Iraq wars the overwhelming concensus was that women there are nothing more than second class citizens, bearing in mind that the bible was concocted from the same region over 2,000 years ago as means of control it's easy to see where women were placed in the pecking order at the time, they're still there today based on a 2,000 year old book of quotes

 

[Kryst51]

In conversations with many who took part in both Iraq wars the overwhelming concensus was that women there are nothing more than second class citizens, bearing in mind that the bible was concocted from the same region over 2,000 years ago as means of control it's easy to see where women were placed in the pecking order at the time, they're still there today based on a 2,000 year old book of quotes

Read all of Corinthians then tell me what you think about this one verse from it...

 

[Fifty2One]

No, we do not agree on this aside from agreeing that it is OK.
I find that I must say that it is good there are young people like yourself who are still finding values and quality in their faith and following it with conviction.

I don't think we are on the same wavelength here at all. Translating the Bible into different languages so that it can be understood by all is certainly a very valid form of spreading the truth about God. But there is only one way to Heaven, and that is through the Jesus Christ as I have previously discussed. Any other proclamation is not. That is why Christians are given the command to go and spread the good news, the Gospel, about Christ, so that all people have the opprotunity to come to Him. But you are right, all of creation declares His glory, unfortunately because of sin not all of creation is able to recognize it as such, and so create other gods, or ideas to worship instead of the One True God of the Bible.

But I understand that we don't agree on this, and that is certainly OK.

 

[chergh]

Unfortunately Chergh, I don't have time to answer every question, so maybe someone else has an answer. I am going to start trying to get to Adam Caramon's original questions first. I am sure there are more questions than these that you have. But suffice it to say, that my answers would not help you to see things any clearer, as I believe your question is meant to create argument for arguments sake. Your understanding of scripture cannot come from pulling a verse out of context, Read the whole book, and tell me what you think it means. The Bible is meant to be understood by anyone.

In my church specifically, though, women are not allowed to teach men in an official capacity. But women do teach other women and children. As a matter fact the head of our children's ministry is a woman.

No it's not to create an argument for argument sakes. It's entirely to do with pointing out the absurdity of the book. How anyone can read that pile of junk and come out thinking it's the word of god is beyond me. I also find the homophobia and misogyny within its pages offensive.

The quote also wasn't out of context so apparently christians these days just pick and choose which bits to follow and ignore.

Read all of Corinthians

Yeah I enjoyed this little nugget of tolerance and good will etc...

"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God…A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head" (I Corinthians 11:3-10).

and these gems from elsewhere

"The birth of a daughter is a loss" Ecclesiasticus 22:3

"No wickedness comes anywhere near the wickedness of a woman" Ecclesiasticus 25:19

Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" Ecclesiasticus 25:24

"Also that women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire but by good deeds, as befits women who profess religion. Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent." 1 Timothy chapter 2

Looks like you shouldn't be teaching either according to the bible

 

[Rich]

Read all of Corinthians then tell me what you think about this one verse from it...

Thanks but no thanks, I was forced to read enough of the book during my youth, I stopped believing in it at about the same time as I stopped believing in father christmas, the tooth fairy, leprechauns, etc.

 

[Kryst51]

No it's not to create an argument for argument sakes. It's entirely to do with pointing out the absurdity of the book. How anyone can read that pile of junk and come out thinking it's the word of god is beyond me. I also find the homophobia and misogyny within its pages offensive.

The quote also wasn't out of context so apparently christians these days just pick and choose which bits to follow and ignore.




Yeah I enjoyed this little nugget of tolerance and good will etc...



and these gems from elsewhere



Looks like you shouldn't be teaching either according to the bible

My immediate response is anger, which is obviously what you are hoping for. On the surface and by pulling scripture out of context that is exactly what things look like. You know, I have been trying to answer every question to the best of my ability. But I started to read 1 Corinthians during my lunch break, so that I might be able to answer your question, and through that realized something.

I am not capable of answering every objection you have. An understanding of the deeper things of Christianity come over time, and study and by being taught by the Holy Spirit. What it comes down to is this. There is only One True God, He created the earth and all things in it, we are subject to Him whether we want to admit it or not. He says that things work the way they do, and I am in no position to question Him. He chose to send His son Jesus Christ to reconcile my sinful self to Him, now I am able to see things in light instead of in darkness, I will continue to learn more and understand more my entire life.

When I accepted Him as I child I would not be able to understand everything I've tried to answer, nor can I expect that people who don't even believe in Him to understand. The truth is you won't, your desire is to find any excuse to deny God. 1 Corinthians remind me that any power or knowledge I have is through God, on my own I have no power. God's Word will not come back void, and even misuse of it works for God's Glory.

So please, think and misuse scripture all you want. Because in the end my confidence is in Christ, just as Paul says, "And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God." (1 Corinthians 2:1-5) I know what the Bible says, the whole thing, not only the letter of it but the Spirit of it, as I am filled with the Spirit of God.

Whether or not it is OK for me to speak in church is something I don't even care about, because Corinthians, and all the rest of the Bible gives me worth, The fact that I am supposed to dress modestly or not speak has nothing to do with my worth in God's eyes. There are plenty of other verses about that, even in Corinthians which you choose to ignore...

 

[Kryst51]

Thanks but no thanks, I was forced to read enough of the book during my youth, I stopped believing in it at about the same time as I stopped believing in father christmas, the tooth fairy, leprechauns, etc.

OK, but please don't pull a verse out of a book and say it means one thing, when you aren't reading it in context. That was the purpose of my statement. I know you didn't quote it directly but you were responding to Chergh's comment.

 

[Fifty2One]

This is becoming a sad thread as the counterpoints are not backed up with facts and are taken so far out of context it is almost laughable if it was not so pathetic. It is very easy for someone to paraphrase after culling fractured factoids from a wiki or googling selected topics. Posing an agrument without reading the material in context is just a means to frustrate and antagonise.
I have read The Holy Bible more then once and in more then one language and can not recall having the misconseptions that some people seem to be experiencing when they have admittedly not read it once in its entirety because they felt forced to be enlightened or informed.

 

[Rich]

OK, but please don't pull a verse out of a book and say it means one thing, when you aren't reading it in context. That was the purpose of my statement. I know you didn't quote it directly but you were responding to Chergh's comment.

I did say that I'd read enough of the whole book as a child, now you seem to criticise those who pick bits of the book out of context but that's exactly what churches do during sermons, preaching etc

 

[Kryst51]

BTW.... I still plan on answering the originally posed questions... it's just taking me a little longer to get there.

 

[chergh]

The fact that I am supposed to dress modestly or not speak has nothing to do with my worth in God's eyes.

Isn't the bible the word of god or something? Isn't it also inerrant? You have said you chose to be a christian, which I respect as the right to choose is what is fundamentally important here, yet you choose to not obey these verses.

There are plenty of other verses about that, even in Corinthians which you choose to ignore...

There are a lot of positive messages in the bible but they don't make up for the homophobia and the way women are treated within its pages. As an atheist I can take the meanings from the parts of the bible I agree with and leave the bad stuff and supernatural aspects behind.

If it was a choice of what the bible said or a moral vacuum I would choose the bible but it isn't that choice. You can just have the good stuff.

 

[Rich]

This is becoming a sad thread as the counterpoints are not backed up with facts and are taken so far out of context it is almost laughable if it was not so pathetic.

What is equally pathetic, (to use your own description) is that your belief cannot be backed up with "FACTS" either

 

[Adam Caramon]

My immediate response is anger, which is obviously what you are hoping for.

I can't speak for chergh, but as you have a very strong belief in the bible and in god, others have a very strong belief in facts. When you look at a situation or an issue, everything is filtered through your beliefs. You may feel that you understand the entirety of the bible, and thus certain elements of the scriptures (particular verses) may not mean what they appear to mean to someone who does not understand them.

I will freely admit that I am someone who does not understand the context of the bible. I've asked many religious people about various verses that seemed to be very harsh, violent, and evil, to be honest. They said much as you, that those verses are taken out of context.

When I asked them to explain the context, one person actually said "Things were different back when the bible was written". To which I asked "Isn't the bible supposed to be divinely-inspired by god? And if so, wouldn't he tell us how he wanted us to live?" No answer. Many others simply refused to explain the context.

I think I know how you feel. To you it all makes sense. To you, your entire life, your world, your perception, your morals, everything, revolves around your belief and your faith. You may not be able to explain it, but it makes sense, to you.

Hopefully, with empathy, you can put yourself in the shoes of a secularist or non-believer, even temporarily, and realize that to many of us, you base your entire life off of a work of fiction. Follow that thought for one moment. Wars are fought over fiction. Laws are made over fiction. People were executed because of fiction. And the list goes on.

I don't intend insult, so hopefully you won't take it that way, but I think that if both sides could put themselves in the other's shoes, even for a short bit, we could more easily communicate.

 

[Kryst51]

Isn't the bible the word of god or something? Isn't it also inerrant? You have said you chose to be a christian, which I respect as the right to choose is what is fundamentally important here, yet you choose to not obey these verses.



There are a lot of positive messages in the bible but they don't make up for the homophobia and the way women are treated within its pages. As an atheist I can take the meanings from the parts of the bible I agree with and leave the bad stuff and supernatural aspects behind.

If it was a choice of what the bible said or a moral vacuum I would choose the bible but it isn't that choice. You can just have the good stuff.

I will obey these verses, I do dress modestly and am not a pastor at my church. What I meant was that these things do not affect my worth, my worth is defined by Christ, on my own I am worthy of death only, for my sinfulness, and the evil that was in my heart.

We are ALL sinners, even I, and just as the Bible speaks against homosexuality, it speaks against hatred, liars, drunkards, gossipers, murderers, thieves, people who commit gluttony and anyone who does not serve Him and choose to serve other gods. He is the judge and ruler of this earth, so His is the moral standard which I follow (and I fail to follow it perfectly every day, which is why I need Christ), you are perfectly free to make your own choice, and will be given the consequences of it. In the Bible, that means total separation from Him forever, and maybe you think that is a good thing, but what you are not able to see now, is how dark things will be for you without Him. While you live you are able to experience His light on the earth, so that you just might choose differently. And if you want passages that address this I will give you some after I get home from work tonight.

 

[Kryst51]

I can't speak for chergh, but as you have a very strong belief in the bible and in god, others have a very strong belief in facts. When you look at a situation or an issue, everything is filtered through your beliefs. You may feel that you understand the entirety of the bible, and thus certain elements of the scriptures (particular verses) may not mean what they appear to mean to someone who does not understand them.

I will freely admit that I am someone who does not understand the context of the bible. I've asked many religious people about various verses that seemed to be very harsh, violent, and evil, to be honest. They said much as you, that those verses are taken out of context.

When I asked them to explain the context, one person actually said "Things were different back when the bible was written". To which I asked "Isn't the bible supposed to be divinely-inspired by god? And if so, wouldn't he tell us how he wanted us to live?" No answer. Many others simply refused to explain the context.

I think I know how you feel. To you it all makes sense. To you, your entire life, your world, your perception, your morals, everything, revolves around your belief and your faith. You may not be able to explain it, but it makes sense, to you.

Hopefully, with empathy, you can put yourself in the shoes of a secularist or non-believer, even temporarily, and realize that to many of us, you base your entire life off of a work of fiction. Follow that thought for one moment. Wars are fought over fiction. Laws are made over fiction. People were executed because of fiction. And the list goes on.

I don't intend insult, so hopefully you won't take it that way, but I think that if both sides could put themselves in the other's shoes, even for a short bit, we could more easily communicate.

Thank you for this, I am certainly not offended. I have said all along what my beliefs are based on. I am willing to explain, I am just not able to answer every question, because there are seemingly hundreds of them being lobbed at me (An exaggeration, I know). A good answer takes time and thought, and one not steeped in emotion and I want to be sure that what I am saying is in the Word of God, so I am not able to look at my Bible while I am working.

I also recognize that to me it makes sense and to people who don't believe it doesn't. And the Bible talks about that as well. But I am called to give a defense for my faith, which maybe I am giving the wrong kind at this moment, but I am feeling a little attacked, and I have tried very hard to answer truthfully, and in a nonattacking manner. I also recognize that the truth I am giving is in and of itself offensive, so I will answer you originally posed questions, and the one that I missed concerning the flood, and no more than that, because here we have all said what we think about the subject. If you have any questions other then the ones mentioned here, you can PM me, and I will answer them.