Copenhagen, the wash up

[Galaxiom]

So you assume the speed of light is a definite limit....no technology beyond the speed of light.

The speed of light is not some kind of technological limitation but a fundamental part of the structure of spacetime itself.

Indeed the speed of light is the only speed in the universe. Everything travels at that speed. "Stationary" objects are moving at the speed of light in the direction of time. Any speed through space is at the expense of speed through time which is why time slows down when we travel at high speed through space.

To accelerate an object, an increasing amount of energy must be added for each increment in speed. This is why the nanogram of protons circling at close to the speed of light in the Large Hadron Collider has the same kinetic energy as a TGV train travelling at over 200 km/hr.

The physical nature and sheer enormity of space make meeting aliens a very unlikely possibility.

 

[Mike375]

The speed of light is not some kind of technological limitation but a fundamental part of the structure of spacetime itself.

Indeed the speed of light is the only speed in the universe. Everything travels at that speed. "Stationary" objects are moving at the speed of light in the direction of time. Any speed through space is at the expense of speed through time which is why time slows down when we travel at high speed through space.

To accelerate an object, an increasing amount of energy must be added for each increment in speed. This is why the nanogram of protons circling at close to the speed of light in the Large Hadron Collider has the same kinetic energy as a TGV train travelling at over 200 km/hr.

The physical nature and sheer enormity of space make meeting aliens a very unlikely possibility.

I am aware of all that. However, before nuclear energy was understood the amount of energy available from a mass was limited to chemical energy. I am not referring to nuclear technology but the understanding of it, which came well before "the bomb". In other words what what was taught in the science class of the old university was incorrect.

One thing that has always struck me about the speed of light is how incredibly slow it is relative to the size of the universe.

As a side note are you prepared to state that time it takes to communicate between two objects that are 5 light years apart will never be less than 5 years.

 

[Thales750]

We're afraid you're going to trick us with your superior British wit.


I think the most obvious problem with the bible is that is was originally written in Latin

.

Actually the Old Testiment was writen in Hebrew, and the New Testiment was writen in Greek.

 

[Thales750]

I don't have a problem with people choosing to believe in the ridiculous stories in the holy books. However they should not expect to dictate their values to wider society on the basis of that faith as they have done for many centuries, frequently using violent means to enforce their will.

I find it much more prevalent that people of no faith are more intent on spreading their word.

The faithful are of course, morons.

 

[Thales750]

According to the Bible, in the begining there was nothing but God and the Void. God created everything. Defining God in terms of beings from another planet is not consistent with the description of God provided in the Bible.

Alien life, yes. Gods, no.

Ah indeed, the big bang; everything from nothing. Yup that explains it.

 

[Galaxiom]

I find it much more prevalent that people of no faith are more intent on spreading their word.

The rise of atheistic people confronting the doctrine of the church is a recent phenomonon. For centuries people speaking against the church were considered heretics and frequently punished by torture and death. Church attendence has been compulsory with enormous fines for failing to attend.

Discrimination in law against those who do not conform to the ways of the church is only beginning to be overturned. The status of women has long been based on Biblical teaching and only recently have women been given the same rights as men in many Western countries. Blatant descrimination based on the rule of the church continues in many places.

Religious values are embedded in our societies. Religious leaders demand to be included in the setting of public policy. Religion has a special status in law and is exempt from taxation. Church buildings are highly visible extravagent symbols of power and influence.

Religion need not spread the word for it is already thoroughly dispursed. Atheists are simply exercising the long overdue right of reply, something that the church has always supressed.

 

[Galaxiom]

Ah indeed, the big bang; everything from nothing. Yup that explanes it.

Cosmology does not claim that the Big Bang is a case of everything from nothing. There are several attempts to construct a theory of the origin of the universe from larger multidimensional structures through the Big Bang.

Understandably, since these purported origins lay beyond the limits of observation it is very difficult to analyse and test the theories. However work continues in this rapidly expanding field and I have little doubt that we will see development in the near future.

The hypothesis that our universe was created by a simple series of commands by an almighty God that always existed has exactly zero evidence and is entirely untestable. It contributes nothing to understanding mechanisms involved.

God and everything He created simply came from nothing. Yup, that explains it.

 

[ajetrumpet]

God is not supposed to be an entity people. He is supposed to be LOVE. And through love, you can create his presence within yourself. And he decided to turn that love that he is into a human being. Hence, the comming of Jesus.

 

[Galaxiom]

As a side note are you prepared to state that time it takes to communicate between two objects that are 5 light years apart will never be less than 5 years.

No I wouldn't since what would appear to be communication faster than the speed of light through Quantum Entanglement has already been demonstrated.

However this technology requires the entangled particles to have been in the same place at some previous time so does not get around the problem of long distance travel at high speed.

None the less, instantaneous communication may ultimately be possible through other dimensions. We just don't know enough about the fundamental structure of spacetime and mass. However I would not expect any potential to pass matter into other dimensions and come out again in a remote location in a recognisable form.

I would be confident in saying that a distant alien would not be able to directly exert influence of matter on earth much less manifest the energy to part a sea at the behest of a man trying to escape his enemies.

 

[Galaxiom]

God is not supposed to be an entity people. He is supposed to be LOVE. And through love, you can create his presence within yourself. And he decided to turn that love that he is into a human being. Hence, the comming of Jesus.

So Joshua was aided in the Hebrew Promised Land massaces through God's love? The Crusaders fought for Juruslem on the power of love? Christians burned "witches" because of love? The Coalition of the Willing wrought havoc upon Iraq through love? Priests molested children motivated by love? Hmmmm?

I do accept that a greater consciousness may be created through mass hypnosis. However that need not be a universal love and casual observation suggests that it is more often built on greed and hatred. This is why religion is so dangerous.

 

[ajetrumpet]

So Joshua was aided in the Hebrew Promised Land massaces through God's love? The Crusaders fought for Juruslem on the power of love? Christians burned "witches" because of love? The Coalition of the Willing wrought havoc upon Iraq through love? Priests molested children motivated by love? Hmmmm?

I do accept that a greater consciousness may be created through mass hypnosis. However that need not be a universal love and casual observation suggests that it is more often built on greed and hatred. This is why religion is so dangerous.

No question that you are right about the danger there bud. But just because of what you're stating, doesn't mean ANYTHING. God represents love, but he doesn't mess with free will. Christians (so to speak) can do whatever the hell they want. God does not tell your heart to do A B or C. He tells you to find your own way. In short, YOU ARE THE CHURCH. That is what Jesus also tried to preach.

 

[Galaxiom]

God does not tell your heart to do A B or C. He tells you to find your own way. In short, YOU ARE THE CHURCH. That is what Jesus also tried to preach.

Now we are getting somewhere. Personal morality is what it is about.
I have no argument with spirituality. The church is the problem. They presume to instruct the believers in morality and those who choose a different way are alienated.

Jesus had a very low opinion of the church and referred to those who engaged in conspicuous public worship as hypocrites. Indeed He instructed the faithful to worship in complete privacy.

Yet we see a highly conspicuous heirarchial structure dominating and defining the broader sense of spirituality right across the population of two billion so called Christians on the planet. Meanwhile those who question this departure from God's Word are labelled heretics.

 

[Mike375]

I would be confident in saying that a distant alien would not be able to directly exert influence of matter on earth much less manifest the energy to part a sea at the behest of a man trying to escape his enemies.

Even if it/he/she/they could do it I don't think that would have happened.

I see the Bible somewhat like a newspaper story or something from history. Usually the basis or core is true but the details could be from rough to very rough. I have had a keen interest in dinosaurs since I was a kid and that is a very fluid situation However, what has remained the same is there were a lot of very large animals walking about the place and with a basic reptilian appearance.

I find it extremely difficult to believe the Bible is the product of an invention by man. I think a long time ago some pretty interesting stuff was happening. Whether caused by a god, gods, God or aliens, who knows.

 

[ajetrumpet]

Yet we see a highly conspicuous heirarchial structure dominating and defining the broader sense of spirituality right across the population of two billion so called Christians on the planet. Meanwhile those who question this departure from God's Word are labelled heretics.

Galax,

that's just the way human beings act. And Jesus knew it too. Jesus was the most faithful human that ever walked the earth, and he did not lead one damn thing. You would never see him sit on a thrown like you see the pope doing. That's what I find sad. Stuff like that. If you want to dive into faith and get close to God in your heart, don't brag about it. As soon as you do, you grow farther away. If only power seekers knew that truth, huh?

 

[Galaxiom]

Galax,

that's just the way human beings act. And Jesus knew it too. Jesus was the most faithful human that ever walked the earth, and he did not lead one damn thing. You would never see him sit on a thrown like you see the pope doing. That's what I find sad. Stuff like that. If you want to dive into faith and get close to God in your heart, don't brag about it. As soon as you do, you grow farther away. If only power seekers knew that truth, huh?

Then you would be spiritual rather than religious?

I have no doubt that Jesus would be apalled at the things done in His name and the domination of humanity by the church. A true believer would surely work to undermine the power of the church.

My favourite quote is one that unfortunately I read from a source that did not attribute its author.

"Religion is man's way of protecting himself from spiritual experience."

 

[Galaxiom]

I find it extremely difficult to believe the Bible is the product of an invention by man. I think a long time ago some pretty interesting stuff was happening. Whether caused by a god, gods, God or aliens, who knows.

What precisely leads you to this conclusion? Why could not it be simply a deluded imagination. Ron Hubbard and Joseph Smith seemed to have no trouble inventing ridiculously fanciful notions of as the basis of their own religions.

What bewilders me is the number of people who followed them.

 

[Mike375]

What precisely leads you to this conclusion? Why could not it be simply a deluded imagination. Ron Hubbard and Joseph Smith seemed to have no trouble inventing ridiculously fanciful notions of as the basis of their own religions.

What bewilders me is the number of people who followed them.

I think there are some significant differences between those blokes and the Bible. Firstly, they did not really start from scratch. The Bible has set the scene for different religions, spititual experiences etc. and etc. Secondly is the short term and limited number of followers.

What precisely leads you to this conclusion?

A couple of very basic things. The first one being as I said earlier is it just seems to me that such an enduring story (or news report if you like) of events that are quite fanastic has to have some basis of truth. The second reason is quite simply my own experiences and observations. No matter which way I examine things I keep coming up with the most likely option being a life force and also possibly some form of telepathy between humans.

 

[Galaxiom]

I think there are some significant differences between those blokes and the Bible. Firstly, they did not really start from scratch.

While Smith's main changes simply moved the Promised Land and the Israelites to Utah, Hubbard started from scratch. Brand new deity and humans as a type of damaged god originating from another planet. Though he did copy the idea of salvation through restoration by faith.

The Bible has set the scene for different religions, spititual experiences etc. and etc. Secondly is the short term and limited number of followers.

The derivatives of Judeaism took a long time to arise. There are already factions in both Scientology and the LDS. Both continue to increase their following. Religion is politics and politicians are often involved in power struggles that lead to splits. Mohammed created Islam after being rejected as a prophet by the Jewish oligarchy.

All the Abrahamic faiths were conceived in an environment without a sophisticated science where humans still needed some explanation for the inexplicable. Everyone had some kind of god which they hoped to influence through worship. Moreover all violently supressed opposition at various times and made life outside the church untenable. A truly devine philosophy surely should not have required this kind of enforcement.

it just seems to me that such an enduring story (or news report if you like) of events that are quite fanastic has to have some basis of truth.

The Old Testament was written at a time when writing itself was rare. Those stories would have been from an oral history passed down through many generations in a context where supernatural occurrences could not have been discounted as contrary to sensibilities. No doubt they were greatly exaggerated in this process. Many believers would have been in awe of the whole concept of a book and hence afforded it undue reverence.

The Bible includes several contradictory claims from different authors and clearly the creation story departs wildly from the geological and biological evidence. I see no plausible basis in truth for Genesis.

The second reason is quite simply my own experiences and observations. No matter which way I examine things I keep coming up with the most likely option being a life force and also possibly some form of telepathy between humans.

Perhaps there are aspects to our existence that lie beyond our current understanding. I too have had experiences that suggest some of those possiblites. However nothing I have experienced suggests anything out of the ordinary about the Bible.

It may be that these curious phenomona prompted the early muddled attempts to make sense of it. These stories became the Bible and then were picked up by fascist elements to promote their own ends.

It is amazing what a story can become over time. Parting seas or bringing back the dead? I don't thinks so. Feeding a multitude on some rock hard stale bread and two rotten fish perhaps. I can just imagine, "Thanks but I will be OK, pass it on".

 

[Mike375]

While Smith's main changes simply moved the Promised Land and the Israelites to Utah, Hubbard started from scratch. Brand new deity and humans as a type of damaged god originating from another planet. Though he did copy the idea of salvation through restoration by faith.

If you and I set sail today to start a religion then we have behind us the fact that a huge percentage of the population is already part of a religion. In other words we are offering another version of what is accepted, the latest model

The Bible includes several contradictory claims from different authors and clearly the creation story departs wildly from the geological and biological evidence. I see no plausible basis in truth for Genesis.

I have seen both the list of contradictions and the equally big list of answers from the Bible side.

As to Genesis God could have made the sun as a a star already 5 billion years old and ditto for earth. Adam and Eve were portrayed appearing as adults.

Consider this.....in 1800 an alien detonates a nuclear bomb. To the scientists of the day what happened is impossible. Their calculations show that it would have taken a 1000 men with wagons 10 years to assemble the explosive. To the non scientists it was also impossible, perhaps a miracle.

As would be expected the event would be written about and by both men of science and journalists. However, in both cases their writings would be way off the mark.

Perhaps there are aspects to our existence that lie beyond our current understanding. I too have had experiences that suggest some of those possiblites. However nothing I have experienced suggests anything out of the ordinary about the Bible.

Like you I can't relate my experiences and observations to the Bible except they share in common with the Bible things that just don't add up, something else at work.

It is amazing what a story can become over time. Parting seas or bringing back the dead? I don't thinks so. Feeding a multitude on some rock hard stale bread and two rotten fish perhaps. I can just imagine, "Thanks but I will be OK, pass it on".

While it is true that a story can become a lot over time the story usually has a starting point or a factual basis.

Actually, if I stand on the side that supports the Bible as basically accurate then to my way of thinking it portrays a god of great but limited power. I think it is quite possible that the universe came about without a supernatural being but gods or superior beings are within the universe.

If I go back to the alien who detonated the thermo nuclear in 1800.....no matter the effort put in to find an answer the science of the day could not come within a million miles of the explanation. Every theory or explanation would be full of holes and counter theories. Then one day in the future the answer would become obvious. At the moment I see Hawking, Davies and Co as being the counterpart of those scientists in 1800.

 

[Thales750]

Cosmology does not claim that the Big Bang is a case of everything from nothing. There are several attempts to construct a theory of the origin of the universe from larger multidimensional structures through the Big Bang.

quote]

I think we all have the same access to Discovery and Google, so we mostly get the whole big bang theory (which I ascribe to, by the way). My point was that science uses new words to hide that fact that they have no better explanations, than were available to the sheep herders of yesteryear.