FYI re the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment

[Isaac]

Pat, be aware that there are occasional "whoops" cases even with regular birth control pills. My 2nd grandson was a "whoops" because there are stress-related and illness-related situations where "the pill" doesn't stop pregnancy. We believe that #2 came along because of stress hormones that canceled the hormones in the pill.

AND for the record we dearly love BOTH grandkids. We don't care that #2 was a "whoops" because he is a good kid, well behaved, smart as a whip (as that old saying goes), studious, honest, and has a good work ethic. #1 grandson is a trip in his own right and we enjoy him too. Both boys were raised with a strong but fair parental environment.

My second child, our son and last child, was a bit of a surprise (I mean, as I said before, not really because we were having unprotected sex my wife and I, so I can't claim 'surprise' - and yet we were indifferent to birth control, so it was left to chance) as well.

After that, we decided 2 kids provided more than enough joy + work and were perfect for each other, and I got fixed. I was shocked that it was such an easy, quick procedure and wondered why I hadn't heard more about it or it being more popular. No need for my wife to be on perpetual birth control when I was able to have a 10 minute procedure that solved the issue for life.

Of course, such a simplistic approach to the issue only really works well within the paradigm of one life, one wife, one marriage, etc.
For people on and off the relationship boat in a frenetic or disorganized way, it wouldn't work as well.

Lifetime marriages provide dozens and dozens of benefits. You only start realizing how many as the decades go by! I feel bad for those not within such a thing because they are really missing out and life is SOOO much more complicated.

 

[Pat Hartman]

liberals discuss it as if there were absolutely no known cure to becoming pregnant.

Their IQ has always been questionable but it is their complete lack of common sense and inability to see beyond the ends of their noses that causes the real problems. If they could only think far enough ahead to see the potential downsides of their "solutions" and virtue signalling.

What could possibly go wrong if we simply open the border and allow anyone who shows up entry? Then we agree to support them because we can't let the starve and those blasted, uncaring Republicans won't give them work permits, not that there is any real work in a modern society for someone who has no skills and who can't even speak the language so he can't learn from his coworkers.

The federal government is now complicit in a world-wide human trafficking operation where we facilitate the selling of women and children and the indentured servitude of men. We won't even talk about the drugs and the billions the drug cartels are pocketing from both operations.

But apparently, the Democrats think the whole operation is somehow moral and those who are against the trafficking are the immoral ones. The Catholic Church and who knows what other religious groups are also facilitating the trafficking and our Communist Pope thinks the trafficking is moral also.

 

[RogerCooper]

For the first 150 years of our Republic, immigration was largely unlimited. The United States prospered greatly as a result.

I will condemn government interference in the free flow of labor as immoral, even if the Communist wing of the Republican party thinks that the government should have final say in every business and personal decision.

 

[Isaac]

For the first 150 years of our Republic, immigration was largely unlimited

Do you not understand Time and Space?

 

[Mike Krailo]

For the first 150 years of our Republic, immigration was largely unlimited. The United States prospered greatly as a result.

I will condemn government interference in the free flow of labor as immoral, even if the Communist wing of the Republican party thinks that the government should have final say in every business and personal decision.

Why even have borders?

Countries have borders to define their territorial limits and to regulate the movement of people, goods, and services across them. Borders serve several purposes:

• Delineate territorial boundaries: Borders mark the edges of a country’s territory, separating it from neighboring countries.
• Regulate movement: Borders control the flow of people, goods, and services across them, allowing countries to manage immigration, trade, and economic activity.
• Protect sovereignty: Borders help countries maintain their independence and sovereignty by preventing unauthorized entry or interference from other countries.
• Manage resources: Borders can be used to manage natural resources, such as water, land, and minerals, within a country’s territory.
• Establish laws and regulations: Borders enable countries to enforce their laws and regulations within their territory, including laws related to taxation, employment, and environmental protection.
• Maintain national identity: Borders can be symbolic of a country’s national identity, culture, and history, and can be used to promote national unity and cohesion.

Legal immigration is always a welcome thing, but now there are 10's of thousands of illegal border crossings and rogue government support to encourage this behavior by rewarding them with free benefits that no legal immigrant ever got prior to the Biden admin. States are stealing from their citizens to perpetuate this crime against citizens and creating yet more incentive for even more border crossings at the tax payers expense.

This has nothing to do with free flow of labor. There are a whole lot of pissed off Chicago citizens that are fed up with this treasonous tactic. You have no idea how damaging this is to the whole country.

Chicago has had enough

Chicago's illegals getting social security cards

 

[Isaac]

I will condemn government interference in the free flow of labor as immoral,

I hope you remember that next time we discuss Unions and labor laws LOL

 

[Pat Hartman]

"Pat, be aware that there are occasional "whoops" cases even with regular birth control pills."

Yes Doc. Being a woman, I am quite aware that contraception is not foolproof and that is why I would never be in favor of an outright ban on abortions and you already know that. We've had this discussion way too many times. It is always circular. My position has never varied. At some point during gestation - the the point is largely an opinion - the fetus becomes a human being. This has nothing whatsoever to do with your religious beliefs or lack thereof. Catholics say life begins at conception and even birth control is immoral. The Jews say at birth. The Protestants run the gamut. The Muslims align with the Catholics and I have no idea where the rest of the world's religions align. That human being whenever it emerges, has the right to not be killed because he is inconvenient. My personal opinion is that once the fetus can survive outside the womb, it is no longer a growth but a life in its own right and therefore has the right to life which makes abortion after this point - murder. This is a moving line. As technology improves, the line moves earlier in the gestation process.

Every woman with a modicum of self-awareness knows that even though conception requires a male and a female (we're going to not go down the rabbit hole of men being able to conceive again), it is ALWAYS the female who actually has to live with the consequences of an unwanted pregnancy. And there are always consequences whether the baby is carried to term or aborted. The woman has to live the rest of her life with the decision. According to friends who have opted for abortion, most regret it for the rest of their lives even when abortion seemed at the time to be the most rational choice.

Unprotected sex would be a lot less attractive to men if they, like some penguin species were responsible for taking care of the egg during the long Antarctic winter while the mother is off swimming and enjoying life until spring.

 

[Isaac]

Unprotected sex would be a lot less attractive to men if they, like some penguin species were responsible for taking care of the egg during the long Antarctic winter while the mother is off swimming and enjoying life until spring

Back to the 'Family' emphasis of mine.

If a man is having sex with various strangers at various times, he feels rather disconnected from the whole thing, including the pregnancy to a great degree.

If that man is the husband, he won't feel anywhere near as disconnected - he'll be poignantly aware of the work that another child will bring to him.

Sex within marriage is best

 

[Mike Krailo]

Unprotected sex would be a lot less attractive to men if they, like some penguin species were responsible for taking care of the egg during the long Antarctic winter while the mother is off swimming and enjoying life until spring.

You got that right Pat.

 

[Pat Hartman]

For the first 150 years of our Republic, immigration was largely unlimited. The United States prospered greatly as a result.

I will condemn government interference in the free flow of labor as immoral, even if the Communist wing of the Republican party thinks that the government should have final say in every business and personal decision.

Welfare state started to emerge in the 30's. It came out in full force in the 60's. It is completely irrational for a welfare state to have an open border. I'll leave it to your to explain to the rest of us why you think that I should provide welfare for every person in the world who decides to come to suck off the teat of the US's welfare system.

So, my question to you is - how many illegal aliens are you personally housing and supporting? if the answer is zero which I would almost bet the ranch on, why do you think that I should be required to house and clothe and feed and educate and provide medical services for everyone in the world who just walks over our border and squats?

 

[Pat Hartman]

You got that right Pat.

I'm actually thinking that for most of the men I know, it would make them seriously consider celibacy

 

[ColinEssex]

I'm actually thinking that for most of the men I know, it would make them seriously consider celibacy

Looking after and raising children is a woman's job. The men go out to work all day. The woman should do housework and have the dinner cooking for when the man comes home from work.
Col

 

[Mike Krailo]

Looking after and raising children is a woman's job. The men go out to work all day. The woman should do housework and have the dinner cooking for when the man comes home from work.
Col

That must be the 11th commandment.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Unfortunately, Col, that idea is based on a religion-oriented world view. Not everyone agrees with it.

 

[RogerCooper]

Welfare state started to emerge in the 30's. It came out in full force in the 60's. It is completely irrational for a welfare state to have an open border. I'll leave it to your to explain to the rest of us why you think that I should provide welfare for every person in the world who decides to come to suck off the teat of the US's welfare system.

So, my question to you is - how many illegal aliens are you personally housing and supporting? if the answer is zero which I would almost bet the ranch on, why do you think that I should be required to house and clothe and feed and educate and provide medical services for everyone in the world who just walks over our border and squats?

No one says we have to provide welfare for them, just opportunity to work. Most government "welfare" programs are for the elderly like Social Security and Medicare, which most immigrants will be not be eligible for many years.

Let's not get to hung up on activities which the government deemed illegal and those is has deemed legal. The laws can be changed. And people can't always wait for the government to get around to it.

I do consider time and space. The Immigration Act of 1924 which created the first numerical limits on immigration was directed against immigrants from Southern & Eastern Europe (Asians and Africans having been barred earlier). It was a racist time.

 

[Mike Krailo]

No one says we have to provide welfare for them, just opportunity to work. Most government "welfare" programs are for the elderly like Social Security and Medicare, which most immigrants will be not be eligible for many years.

Let's not get to hung up on activities which the government deemed illegal and those is has deemed legal. The laws can be changed. And people can't always wait for the government to get around to it.

Why would anyone want to work when the first thing that happens after forcing their way in illegally is they get flown anywhere they want in the country and then get a huge handout? Do you get to fly or buss wherever you want and get a government credit card with thousands of dollars on it? This then attracts even more illegal border crossings because those that simply want a handout, come by the hundreds of thousands. Not only should there be limits to legal immigration, but at this point, there should be none whatsoever because there is an invasion of epic proportions. This is destroying our country by way striping the citizens of their sovereignty and makes the country less safe in the process. Any new jobs should go to existing citizens. Anyone not here legally, should be deported and never be allowed in again because they chose to break our laws, we have enough law breakers here already, we don't need anymore. That sends the opposite message to those who think they can walk all over our sovereignty as a nation.

 

[RogerCooper]

Please provide some documentation of huge handouts. Please provide the detail about the government credit card.

In NYC, they are putting people up in hotels at government expense until they receiving working papers. That expense is created entirely by the Federal government.

 

[Pat Hartman]

No one says we have to provide welfare for them, just opportunity to work.

But there is no way to stop them from getting welfare. Hell, they are even being registered to vote. How does that sit with you? That lets them vote themselves even more of your tax dollars.

And people can't always wait for the government to get around to it.

So, let me get this straight. You don't like a law, so you can ignore it because someday Congress may decide to change it???? Works for me

In NYC, they are putting people up in hotels at government expense until they receiving working papers.

Our immigration system does not give working papers to people in the country illegally. Biden does whatever he wants however. He has a pen just like Obama did. If you are on the receiving end of his handouts, you must be very happy. If you pay taxes, you may not be quite as happy about the college loan forgiveness for example. Biden waved his middle finger at the Supremes (they may as well be a girl group since they are pretty useless when they let the President ignore their rulings) and told them, I'm going to do it anyway. Try to stop me.

 

[RogerCooper]

Where are non-citizens being registered to vote? There are few jurisdictions that legal residents can vote in local elections, but few do.

 

[Isaac]

Looking after and raising children is a woman's job. The men go out to work all day. The woman should do housework and have the dinner cooking for when the man comes home from work.
Col

I think things should be split, but the part where I DIVERGE from the lib feminists is this idea that "the housework/childcare should always be split 50/50" - well that makes no sense, because IF only the man is working a full time job, then the total work = Housework + FullTimeJob, which means if he is doing the FullTimeJob + .5*housework, he is doing .75 of all the work.

Obviously, the totality of the situation should be taken into account - and then split fairly. When I am working full time and my wife is not, she does about 75% of the household work, I pitch in 25% just to keep myself honest and from getting physically lazy and to encourage her.

When she is working a sort of 2/3-time outside job, and I am working full time, I pitch in closer to .5 of the housework.

The feminists rule is silly - but the idea of splitting ALL of the work evenly is reasonable.

Now if I could get my son to pitch in more .... then I would feel like an expert parent, which I am not, and have not.