Guilty or Not Guilty? The George Floyd trial...

[Jon]

I think the jury is at risk of physical violence. If you were white and it got out that you voted not guilty, you would be classed as a white supremacist and a danger to people of colour. In other words, truth doesn't matter in this case, only a predetermined outcome. I'm waiting until all the evidence is in.

 

[Isaac]

With the way "cancel culture" is going, do you think that the jury could be at risk?

Hugely. They should be given protection for the next decade.

Isn't it sad how twisted and out of balance our country has become? Yes, Floyd's life was valuable and precious in the eyes of God and in the eyes of every decent person. But so were the lives of the 20 people shot in Chicago last week, and the week before that, and the week before that.

People who, in the prosecutor's own words, did this as the height of their January 6th crime: walked through an open door and meandered through the hallways for several moments before exiting are facing 7 years in prison. People who committed r@pe and murder are being set free on "covid mercy" type of judgments - to commit more crimes during their release. People who bombed police vans (without even knowing whether someone was inside) during the riots last summer had their bail paid by donations from US celebrities and political actors.

We have lost sight of equality and balance, choosing instead to sensationalize particular events for political purposes. I'm being gracious in saying 'we', of course.

Guess Trump was right in seeing the gross distortion of law & order that was beginning to occur, wasn't he?

 

[moke123]

By plead, do you mean guilty, or they will just have their own trial?

Yes, make a deal to avoid trial and hopefully recieve a lesser sentence.

I'm not that familiar with police officer interactions (with each other)

The blue wall.

The last shooting I had the police were lying through their teeth and attempting to cover for each other.

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

The last shooting I had the police were lying through their teeth and attempting to cover for each other.

It's interesting that in this case, it looks like the police are not supporting the officers, and are taking every measure they can to distance themselves.

 

[Isaac]

The blue wall.

The last shooting I had the police were lying through their teeth and attempting to cover for each other.

I believe you.

So, given how incredibly strong the reputation of that Blue Wall is, what is your guess as to what might have happened to the rookie, had he begun to physically accost Chauvin, and turned out to be wrong? And don't give me a best case scenario in hindsight, give me the real possibilities from his reasonable expectations at the time.

 

[AccessBlaster]

If anyone pushes Chauvin off Mr Floyd it would be the rookie, he isn't elbows deep in the culture.

 

[Jon]

Yes, Floyd's life was valuable and precious in the eyes of God and in the eyes of every decent person. But so were the lives of the 20 people shot in Chicago last week, and the week before that, and the week before that.

I'm with you on this point @Isaac and have made the very same point multiple times. There is a myopic focus on George Floyd, racism and police brutality. Yet I do not see any evidence linking this case to racism. There will be those, and we all know who they are(!), who will say there is a link to racism, because systemic racism in society leads to poverty, which leads to this and that and therefore the offender is racist!

If you want to focus on how one race kills another, look at this table. It is a little outdated, being from 2013, but you get the picture. I like to deal in facts, and here they are:

Source:https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u....f_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls

You can see that in 2013, 409 white people were killed by black people, yet only 189 black people were killed by white people. Since blacks represent 13% of the population and whites around 60%, that is a huge overrepresentation of murders of whites from blacks. From a quick calculation in my head (liable to error!), blacks kill whites at 10x the rate than whites kill blacks. Just sayin'.

So, given that, focusing on one black mans death from the hands of a white police officer, while giving little coverage to where the biggest problems are, will only mislead the uninformed. You may say, "But this police brutality has to stop!" Yes indeed. But why not the outrage 4 years earlier in the same city, Minneapolis, where a black police officer shot dead an innocent white woman who called the police for help?

 

[Jon]

It's interesting that in this case, it looks like the police are not supporting the officers, and are taking every measure they can to distance themselves.

They fear for their lives and reputation. Throw the officers under the bus! Every man for himself!

 

[Isaac]

If anyone pushes Chauvin off Mr Floyd it would be the rookie, he isn't elbows deep in the culture.

Ok, I'm following you so far, fair point. So then....why do you suppose he didn't do that? If we just had to guess, isn't the least likely scenario the idea that they all 4 just happened to share the same, extremely strong racial (or other) animus toward George? Isn't something else probably more likely? If so what do you suppose it is?

 

[moke123]

I'm with you on this point @Isaac and have made the very same point multiple times. There is a myopic focus on George Floyd, racism and police brutality. Yet I do not see any evidence linking this case to racism. There will be those, and we all know who they are(!), who will say there is a link to racism, because systemic racism in society leads to poverty, which leads to this and that and therefore the offender is racist!

If you want to focus on how one race kills another, look at this table. It is a little outdated, being from 2013, but you get the picture. I like to deal in facts, and here they are:

View attachment 90691

Source:https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u....f_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls

You can see that in 2013, 409 white people were killed by black people, yet only 189 black people were killed by white people. Since blacks represent 13% of the population and whites around 60%, that is a huge overrepresentation of murders of whites from blacks. From a quick calculation in my head (liable to error!), blacks kills whites at 10x the rate that whites kill blacks. Just sayin'.

So, given that, focusing on one black mans death from the hands of a white police officer, while giving little coverage to where the biggest problems are, will only mislead the uninformed. You may say, "But this police brutality has to stop!" Yes indeed. But why not the outrage 4 years earlier in the same city, Minneapolis, where a black police officer shot dead an innocent white woman who called the police for help?

I believe I've already commented somewhere about the problems with the UCR.

So whats the percentage of police shootings in the data your using?

I believe you.

So, given how incredibly strong the reputation of that Blue Wall is, what is your guess as to what might have happened to the rookie, had he begun to physically accost Chauvin, and turned out to be wrong? And don't give me a best case scenario in hindsight, give me the real possibilities from his reasonable expectations at the time.

Why must it be physical? He could have voiced his objections, as could the others.

 

[Steve R.]

The "Blue Wall" wall exists and they will protect their own. That is really no different than the teacher's union "wall" refusing to go back to work claiming (through manipulation of the narrative) that the working environment is "unsafe".

Then look at the political climate, the police are under "attack". Many of our political leaders responsible for running states, counties, and cities are openly supporting people conducting unlawful activities and condemeing the police for using "excessive" force. So it should not be surprising that members of the police force would band together as a form of self-protection. Of course if a police person goes rogue, the "Blue Wall" should not protect them.

Missing in a lot of these discussions is the performance of the person who is the supposed victim of police abuse. The focus seems to always be on questioning the performance of the police officer. Well, some focus needs to be placed on the performance of the person being arrested and who is refusing to de-escalate. How about sending members of the public to training to learn how to behave in a civil society?

 

[Jon]

Ok, I'm following you so far, fair point. So then....why do you suppose he didn't do that? If we just had to guess, isn't the least likely scenario the idea that they all 4 just happened to share the same, extremely strong racial (or other) animus toward George? Isn't something else probably more likely? If so what do you suppose it is?

My belief is that Chauvin had no intent to murder, and nor did the other police officers. I also believe that the other police officers would have intervened if they though Chauvin was about to kill George Floyd. It would make sense, right? Else they would be in the shit, bigtime. Now if the rookie did not stop Chauvin, it could be because he figured Chauvin had more experience in the use of force, and so knew what he was doing. But the other experienced officers also did not stop Chauvin. In fact, I don't think the other officer even said anything. Therefore, I can only conclude that neither Chauvin nor the other officer(s) thought there was risk to life caused by the knee to the neck.

That aside, were they negligent? Well, according to the law, you do not look at it with 20:20 vision, but from the perspective of the reasonable officer, whatever that term is supposed to mean. They have to account for their own safety first, and that means securing the scene. Were you aware there was a guy wearing a boxing top (he was a mixed martial artist) pacing, saying, "‘I dare you to touch me like that, I swear I’ll slap the f–k out of both of you.” This can be perceived as a threat to the safety of the officers. That is part of the defences argument.

 

[Jon]

So whats the percentage of police shootings in the data your using?

The chart was about murder by race, not police shootings.

 

[Jon]

I think the Blue Wall is just a phenomenon amongst groups. They don't like snitches in prison - it could get you killed. However, in this case the Blue Wall crumbles because the larger societal wall becomes the bigger issue, and the police department fear for themselves. Save the officers or save the department and themselves? That is the decision they have to make.

Police officer witness: "The knee on the neck is not part of our training!"
Defence: "What are these training pictures that show the knee on the neck while trying to handcuff?"

...or so the conversation went in a similar manner to the above.

 

[Isaac]

Why must it be physical? He could have voiced his objections, as could the others.

It was my understanding that he did verbalize his concerns at least once and maybe twice. The remaining questions are things like, did doing so meet the requirement of the moment to avoid personal culpability in the death.

For what it's worth, I'm absolutely in agreement that police officers culture of protecting each other, while perhaps well grounded in all kinds of good reasons, also has led to many harms and crimes not seeing any justice. You have no argument from me there. And it's not just police, as everyone focuses on. Can you even imagine what the FBI and CIA get away with?

 

[Jon]

Regarding the safety of the jury, the court house itself has been reinforced.

 

[moke123]

It's interesting that in this case, it looks like the police are not supporting the officers, and are taking every measure they can to distance themselves.

For good reason. They know it wont end well for Chauvin.

Many states have taken some positive steps in combating police abuse. In my state the DA's are now disclosing brady material on police officers. It used to be that an officers past disiplinary record was off limits. Now they are (or supposed to be) disclosing past disiplinary records. A cop cant just get in trouble in one department and transfer to another to hide his past. If they get caught lying their credibility is shot. I had one cop we caught roughing up a girl caught shoplifting. Didn't mention a lot in his report and denied the incident. Until the supermarket gave us the full video from outside the store. He was fired for lying but was able to sue to get re-instated. As a result the District Attorney has refused to prosecute any cases he is the arresting officer in.

Regarding the safety of the jury, the court house itself has been reinforced.

Its an anonymous jury so very few people even know their identity. They assemble somewhere offsite and are brought to the court house. It ain't the trial courts first rodeo. Extra bonus from covid, they are all wearing masks.

 

[AccessBlaster]

Its an anonymous jury so very few people even know their identity. They assemble somewhere offsite and are brought to the court house. It ain't the trial courts first rodeo. Extra bonus from covid, they are all wearing masks.

If Chauvin isn't convicted of murder I'm pretty sure these jurors will be DOXED, especially if they fall into a certain group.

 

[Isaac]

For good reason. They know it wont end well for Chauvin.

Many states have taken some positive steps in combating police abuse. In my state the DA's are now disclosing brady material on police officers. It used to be that an officers past disiplinary record was off limits. Now they are (or supposed to be) disclosing past disiplinary records. A cop cant just get in trouble in one department and transfer to another to hide his past. If they get caught lying their credibility is shot. I had one cop we caught roughing up a girl caught shoplifting. Didn't mention a lot in his report and denied the incident. Until the supermarket gave us the full video from outside the store. He was fired for lying but was able to sue to get re-instated. As a result the District Attorney has refused to prosecute any cases he is the arresting officer in.



Its an anonymous jury so very few people even know their identity. They assemble somewhere offsite and are brought to the court house. It ain't the trial courts first rodeo. Extra bonus from covid, they are all wearing masks.

The positive steps are good. I agree that the problem of officers' past being totally hidden from their next application makes no sense. It should be disclosed so that the new hiring person can use their best judgment knowing all the facts, allegations, etc.

I wouldn't be so sure about the jury's secrecy being guaranteed, though. With the rise of people "demanding" - even suing to try to force - secret grand jury proceedings be made public, like they did to Cameron, and with everything I see happening these days with what I would call 'malicious exposure', I would guess that jury secrecy might be one of the next things that people will say: "It just isn't right. These people must be made accountable" etc. etc. etc. Obviously I hope that wouldn't happen, but it would be quite unsurprising in our current political climate.

Depending on the verdict, of course. If he is found guilty then those same people will say the opposite.

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

Extra bonus from covid, they are all wearing masks.

Ha! Another upside to Covid...

Down side... I'm just off to the bank dear.... (Puts on Mask) will be back shortly with loads of MONEY!!!!