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[selenau837]

An eye for an eye ?

Ahh, I was wondering when you would challenge my belief in the death penality.


My beliefs have no baring in this current converstion. I am not a zealot. I do not in any way force my beliefs on anyone, nor do I commit crimes in the name of my God. I'm a christian, and I'll be judged for my beliefs and actions when I stand before God.

 

[dan-cat]

Hey dancat,

Yes, these passages are in the Bible but I don't think you can get what the Bible says, in these passages, and what the Korah says, to come close to matching apples with apples.

Like I said, it is all down to interpretation. You don't think that they are similar. It pleased God that idol worshippers were slayed. This is what the bible says. You interpret it differently to another. I interpret it this way. That man used God as an excuse to murder people from a different faith.
This still happens today.

Exactly the same thing applies to the passage you referred to in the Koran. It's quite obvious that most muslims don't interpret the passage to mean you should literally dismember stubborn non-believers. It's only interpreted this way by a psychotic few.

 

[dan-cat]

No they can walk around in a Christian country carrying placards that openly incite hatred and murder though, I wonder how Muslim countries would have reacted if Christians were parading around in their country demanding the same.

This doesn't mean that all muslims should be afraid to express their concerns does it? In any case, it's better for the inciteful to be parading the streets publicly where they can be analysed by the authorities rather than driving them underground.

EDIT: It's very weird but I admonished Ken yesterday for expressing a similar opinion and yet I'm strangely unaffected today.

 

[dan-cat]

The Korah teaches that if a person does not believe then they are infidels and are to be put to death. The people that died, at the Baal sacrifice, was not due to not believing in God. It was due to them worshipping an idol.

But surely the bible teaches you that teasing a man of God is punishable by being eaten alive, even if you are a child? That's my interpretation.

How would you feel if say, Benny Hinn cursed a child to death if he/she teased him about his hair-do? Some bible passages are simply not applicable to today's reality, just like with the Koran.

 

[ShaneMan]

Like I said, it is all down to interpretation. You don't think that they are similar. It pleased God that idol worshippers were slayed. This is what the bible says. You interpret it differently to another. I interpret it this way. That man used God as an excuse to murder people from a different faith.
This still happens today.

Exactly the same thing applies to the passage you referred to in the Koran. It's quite obvious that most muslims don't interpret the passage to mean you should literally dismember stubborn non-believers. It's only interpreted this way by a psychotic few.

The explaination goes way deeper than typing here can give it justice besides even if I did go deeper, it probably wouldn't change your thoughts. People see what they want to see. One difference that I will point out to you is this. God made a covenant with Abraham. In that covenant God made promises to the nation of Isreal but there were also consequences for them not keeping their part. Isreal turned the back on God and sinned. God punished them for their rebellion. In these passages that you are siting. God is punishing a sinful nation or person's, that He has said are "My people" for their sinfulness against Him. He is not punishing those that are not His. At times people did die that were not His but this was due to them coming against the nation of Isreal. He is not having people put to death for not believing in Him. The Korah on the other hand states, in multiple passages, that if an individual does not convert to Islam, then they are to be put to death. Not for sins but for not believing.

I'm sure this changes nothing for you, but I do believe there is a distinct difference. I agree with Selena. There are zealots in anything, but the context of the Bible is to teach love, not hate. If someone correctly reads and translates the Bible then these will be people who are trying to live in harmony with all mankind and love them, no matter what their belief system is or whether they agree with them or not.

 

[ShaneMan]

But surely the bible teaches you that teasing a man of God is punishable by being eaten alive, even if you are a child? That's my interpretation.

How would you feel if say, Benny Hinn cursed a child to death if he/she teased him about his hair-do? Some bible passages are simply not applicable to today's reality, just like with the Koran.

For the most part agreed. However there is a difference. Benny Hinn is a bad example as far as I'm concerned, but I will go with your man of God statement. Today, tease a man of God and that does not happen. Today, you have examples in front of your eyes of Islam being believed and exercised. People are dying and their dying because of being infidels. Islam hates Isreal and teaches that hatred. What is happening in Isreal today?

 

[dan-cat]

People see what they want to see.

Exactly my point.

I'm sure this changes nothing for you, but I do believe there is a distinct difference.

You're right because that is your belief

I'm not interested in challenging your belief, what I'm saying is, is that you are not a muslim, so it is inevitable that you are going to interpret Koran passages differently than to a muslim.

You say that a non-believer will interpret the passages that I cite differently to somebody like you, a Christian. Well I'm afraid the exact same rule has to apply to the Koran. A muslim can quite easily turn the same argument back on you, ie. that you don't correctly interpret the passages that you cite from the koran because you have not accepted the muslim faith.

You are a Christian so you claim licence to correctly interpreting the bible. However it doesn't mean you can claim the same licence for the koran.

It doesn't bother me that you think you are right, but from a neutral standpoint you have to understand that I witness the exact same sincerity from a variety of different faiths and the fact that is, is that somebody has got it wrong.

 

[dan-cat]

Today, tease a man of God and that does not happen. Today, you have examples in front of your eyes of Islam being believed and exercised. People are dying and their dying because of being infidels. Islam hates Isreal and teaches that hatred. What is happening in Isreal today?

This really is my point. There is a lot of stuff in both the Koran and the Bible that is out of date. Sensible people understand this and filter it out accordingly. The others take it, run with it and cause a lot of pain and suffering. The muslim faith does not have a monopoly on this stupidity.

The jewish faith has terrorist factions acting in their name just as the muslims and christian faiths do. It is not one-way traffic in the state of Israel.

 

[Rich]

This doesn't mean that all muslims should be afraid to express their concerns does it.

I don't consider "concerns" as acceptable when they're walking around the streets here openly trying to incite hatred and promoting murder

 

[Rich]

The explaination goes way deeper than typing here can give it justice besides even if I did go deeper, it probably wouldn't change your thoughts. People see what they want to see. One difference that I will point out to you is this. God made a covenant with Abraham. In that covenant God made promises to the nation of Isreal but there were also consequences for them not keeping their part. Isreal turned the back on God and sinned. God punished them for their rebellion. In these passages that you are siting. God is punishing a sinful nation or person's, that He has said are "My people" for their sinfulness against Him. He is not punishing those that are not His. At times people did die that were not His but this was due to them coming against the nation of Isreal. He is not having people put to death for not believing in Him.

Now you see I'm confused, had Hitler stood up and said he was following Gods orders we would have shot him and yet because the same thing appears in a five thousand year old book, we take it as Gospel

 

[dan-cat]

I don't consider "concerns" as acceptable when they're walking around the streets here openly trying to incite hatred and promoting murder

Fair enough but the original "concerns" in this thread were feelings of alienation not the promotion of murder so you're dragging the topic out of context somewhat. The majority of muslims do not behave in this way.

 

[Rich]

GWB went stomping into the Middle East with his "God is on our side" justifications and his lies about WMD's, not caring a fig about how the muslim doctine would interpret such an aggressive move. Saddam had been surpressing religious factions for years and yet GWB was ignorant enough to think that those militants would welcome the "crusaders" with open arms.

And that's another thing, the leaders of Enron are on trial for fraud and deceit, why aren't Bush and Bliar, maybe it's because money has more value?

 

[ShaneMan]

Now you see I'm confused, had Hitler stood up and said he was following Gods orders we would have shot him and yet because the same thing appears in a five thousand year old book, we take it as Gospel

Hitler did think he was following God's orders, from what I understand. A certain denominations church bells rang during various times of the war, celebrating his victories. From what I understand, he also liked Martin Luther’s pamphlet on what should be done about the Jews.

 

[dan-cat]

Hitler did think he was following God's orders, from what I understand. A certain denominations church bells rang during various times of the war, celebrating his victories. From what I understand, he also liked Martin Luther’s pamphlet on what should be done about the Jews.

This happens throughout history. Having God on your side gives one a carte blanche when it comes to morality.

In the bible, you have numerous acts of indiscriminate violence. Some believe that it was God exacting punishment through human agency, I believe it's far simpler than that. ie they are simply more examples of man fictitiously recruiting God to their cause to justify their own violent deeds.

Bush, Blair and Bin Laden all do it today. It's far more difficult to contest their opinions if they have convinced you that they have the blessing of the almighty. It's one of the darker tactics of politics, IMHO.

 

[ShaneMan]

Exactly my point.



You're right because that is your belief

I'm not interested in challenging your belief, what I'm saying is, is that you are not a muslim, so it is inevitable that you are going to interpret Koran passages differently than to a muslim.

You say that a non-believer will interpret the passages that I cite differently to somebody like you, a Christian. Well I'm afraid the exact same rule has to apply to the Koran. A muslim can quite easily turn the same argument back on you, ie. that you don't correctly interpret the passages that you cite from the koran because you have not accepted the muslim faith.

You are a Christian so you claim licence to correctly interpreting the bible. However it doesn't mean you can claim the same licence for the koran.

It doesn't bother me that you think you are right, but from a neutral standpoint you have to understand that I witness the exact same sincerity from a variety of different faiths and the fact that is, is that somebody has got it wrong.

I don’t believe you are challenging my beliefs nor am I trying to challenge yours. I do not think that just because I claim The Name of Christ that it means I “correctly interpret the Bible” either. I don’t believe there is a Shane’s translation or a dan-cat translation nor anyone else. I believe there is only God’s translation and it’s up to us to try and translate it as accurately as possible, which I do research and try to find out what is it saying to the best of my ability. Do I always get it right? Heavens no! Unfortunately, man takes the Bible and justifies his life style or makes the Bible say what they want it to say. All I’m really trying to contribute is that their may a be a different way of thinking of the passages that you have quoted in a different light. Maybe share a little of the research that I’ve done. You are right that I do not know the Koran near as good as I do the Bible so I will back off from trying to make any point from it. The passages are there do with them what you may.

As far as someone has got to be wrong, I guess we all get to find out that answer when we cross into eternity.

Enjoyed the conversation.

 

[Matty]

This happens throughout history. Having God on your side gives one a carte blanche when it comes to morality.

That just made me think of some Bob Dylan lyrics:

Oh my name it is nothin'
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I's taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And that land that I live in
Has God on its side.

Oh the history books tell it
They tell it so well
The cavalries charged
The Indians fell
The cavalries charged
The Indians died
Oh the country was young
With God on its side.

Oh the Spanish-American
War had its day
And the Civil War too
Was soon laid away
And the names of the heroes
I's made to memorize
With guns in their hands
And God on their side.

Oh the First World War, boys
It closed out its fate
The reason for fighting
I never got straight
But I learned to accept it
Accept it with pride
For you don't count the dead
When God's on your side.

When the Second World War
Came to an end
We forgave the Germans
And we were friends
Though they murdered six million
In the ovens they fried
The Germans now too
Have God on their side.

I've learned to hate Russians
All through my whole life
If another war starts
It's them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on my side.

But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to
Then fire them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side.

In a many dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.

So now as I'm leavin'
I'm weary as Hell
The confusion I'm feelin'
Ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
If God's on our side
He'll stop the next war.

 

[dan-cat]

All I’m really trying to contribute is that their may a be a different way of thinking of the passages that you have quoted in a different light.

Absolutely, totally agree. The real point I was trying to make was that you could say the exact same thing with the Koran.

I know preachers in my neighbourhood who are so convinced of the reality of hell as a place of eternal conscious torment that they preach to their congregation to pray to God that children are to be 'taken' before they reach the age of accountability. ie the age when they are held to account for their sins. Some would say this is lunacy, others believe that hell is a reality and that this is a valid point. I know christians who think this teaching is idiotic too but believe in the same Holy Trinity. What is an undecided to make of all this?

IMHO, I think mankind can't help but trip over his own feet when it comes to understanding the eternal. One thing that I do like about Jesus's teachings is the humility factor but unfortunately this is a rare commodity among the religious, well at least in my neighbourhood anyway.

 

[ShaneMan]

I know preachers in my neighbourhood who are so convinced of the reality of hell as a place of eternal conscious torment that they preach to their congregation to pray to God that children are to be 'taken' before they reach the age of accountability. ie the age when they are held to account for their sins. Some would say this is lunacy, others believe that hell is a reality and that this is a valid point. I know christians who think this teaching is idiotic too but believe in the same Holy Trinity. What is an undecided to make of all this?

IMHO, I think mankind can't help but trip over his own feet when it comes to understanding the eternal. One thing that I do like about Jesus's teachings is the humility factor but unfortunately this is a rare commodity among the religious, well at least in my neighbourhood anyway.

In order to get to Jesus teachings you have to go to the New Testament. When you examine what Jesus taught, you will definately see that He taught humility, love for mankind/your neighbor, but what you will also see is that He taught more on hell than He did heaven.

 

[dan-cat]

In order to get to Jesus teachings you have to go to the New Testament. When you examine what Jesus taught, you will definately see that He taught humility, love for mankind/your neighbor, but what you will also see is that He taught more on hell than He did heaven.

There are several reasons why I don't incorporate Jesus's teachings on hell into my life, but I fear this is where we would start to strongly disagree so perhaps we shouldn't get into it

 

[ShaneMan]

There are several reasons why I don't incorporate Jesus's teachings on hell into my life, but I fear this is where we would start to strongly disagree so perhaps we shouldn't get into it

Boy I'm glad you said that, cause I really didn't want to either . I'm sure we would disagree, which there's nothing wrong with that as long as both of us disagree agreeably.