Riots in the USA - just an excuse to let off energy?

[Jon]

@GinaWhipp Let me chip in on the loo roll thing. To me, it is like the stock market. You get bull and bear runs, based on human psychology. People are indeed acting rationally, in my view! Some buy up some loo roll, it gets in shorter supply, so that leads to a spiral in toilet paper demand, with a feedback loop that gets forever tighter. Thus, it is rational to buy before it all runs out! No one wants to get cut short!

Dollar was a very charismatic guy. He used to practice his smile on a small mirror that was stuck up on the wall in my dorm room I shared with him, saying to himself, "You're so beautiful..." all the time. He was funny. My full name is Jonathan Lawrance, but he used to call me "Jonattan Lorenzo".

I am sorry to hear you got it in the neck at work. Workplaces can be full of a-holes.

Gina, I want to throw something out there. It might seem a bit nutty but it is based on psychology, honestly! There is something called the Reticular Activating System. It works like this. You are thinking of buying a car, say Model X. Then, all of a sudden, you see them everywhere! You never noticed them before. But now they appear to be ubiquitous. Do you think the same can applied to perceived racism? The topic of racism is very prevalent, then the brain gets primed to seek out and notice more these issues. If you have say the Democrats constantly promoting the topic of racism, does this not prime the mind to be more sensitive towards the perception of racism, so you notice it more? Does that not decrease the quality of the life for black americans because their minds have become primed for spotting potential inequality?

Or, is your view that yes it may be primed, but you can only spot it if it exists in the first place? I am curious what you think about the topic of making people extra sensitive towards these sorts of issues. I value your perspective because while it is one I may be able to empathise with, I only have an intellectual understanding. I miss the emotional component because maybe that element only comes experientially.

 

[GinaWhipp]

@Jon
I read an article in Psychology Today, yep I peruse articles from time to time also. I think because 80% of the family is in medical in some form or another and when you went to visit family and were bored, you found a book or a magazine to read. It mentioned the how it wasn't the toilet paper per se but that it gave people a sense of control over the craziness happening around them. The pandemic took away peoples security, buying the toilet paper gave them some of that security back. Okay, I could almost get behind that but why buy enough to last YEARS.

Here's the sad fact, almost every job I had I had to deal with it in one form or another. I have given it a name, *Belinda*. (Okay, it's a girls name but it works for me.) I just roll my eyes and say, *anther Belinda*. I do try to make a teachable moment as most of the time it is, as you say, a reason to be hurtful and not because they have an issue with my blackness.

You know it's funny. not ha-ha funny, I am famous for saying, "We are all racist, it's our bigotry that gets in the way.". I have always thought it's not being a racist that is the problem, I mean who wouldn't favor their own race? It's when you want only YOUR race to survive and flourish, you cross that line and become a bigot that sets you apart and it becomes a *problem*. My husband was white (he passed away) also I can answer that question only based on what he experienced. One night we were out for dinner and the waitress refused to address me. He *saw* it and quietly got up went to the host and got us another waitress. We ate, he paid, we got outside and he looked at me and *I see it. How did I not see that before!*. After that I noticed, he did not go out of his to find it but he didn't let it stand when he did see. And not just for me. There was a poor family renting a house on my block, their car broke down. Everyone was convinced they were drug dealers simply because they were black and the lights were on all night at there house. My husband went into the garage, got his tools and went down there. He got their car running and found out there were two families living there and some worked days and some worked nights. No drugs, no craziness just people working on different schedules. They fed him lunch (because he would never take money) and thanked him. G-d I miss that man.

So why did I tell that? Because I think people see it when they are *ready*. I don't thinking talking about makes any difference if you are not *ready* to *see* it. Hmm, and again let's leave politics out of it because being honest about Republicans are doing the same thing. So, IMO, it's across the board. I think everyone is *pushing* to hard to MAKE everyone see it. The old adage, "You can bring a horse to water but you can't make him drink it." holds true in this case. My husband was *ready*. I did not force the idea on him, he knew bigotry existed but had never *seen it* so he could not *figure it out*. We never said a word to the kids and when his daughter (only saying that for the story as I call her my daughter) told her biological mother that she was going to dinner with her Mom (me) and Dad (him) we both knew they were fine.

I don't know if their minds have been *primed*. And I'm not sure you *force* people to *see* it. I actually forcing them is going to backfire and I think it has. Yes, you want to point it out but how are you going to get someone to see something and their circle only includes people that look like them? They are going to get angry, maybe lash out and maybe even start *acting the fool* because they want you (Black, Hispanic, Asian, etc.) to just go away. When you see it, by all means, call it out but don't *point* it out. Make sense? As for Black people, no need to *prime*, we get to see, experience it every day and some days every moment of every day. It's exhausting. I don't want to have a confrontation every single time so I just bite my tough, whisper *another Belinda* and move along. And, if possible, do not return there any more. I am a So even going to *aware that some may not even realize they are *acting* or *saying* anything offensive. So even if you are going to *confront* someone you need to do in a confrontational way. Exhausting, which is why sometimes I just move along.

And no, I have idea what it's like to be white but I do know if you are white the odds are (to name a few)...

• You don't get followed when you enter a store
• You aren't *afraid* to call the police for help
• You most likely did not lose a job because of your skin color
• You aren't reminded of the price over and over again or get offered to look at the cheaper options because *that one is VERY* expensive
• Can work in your front yard without the police asking you what you re doing there
• Not terrified of a traffic stop
• Been offered a job at a lower rate

So while I may not know what it's like to be white, I know what's it like to be black. I don't think Black people need to primed, on the note I don't Caucasian people do either. I think they just need to *ready*. I see the *kids* are ready, it's the older people (not all of them) that are so accustomed to the *old ways* that are not ready. No one likes to be pulled from their comfort zone, Black, White or Green.

 

[Jon]

@GinaWhipp If you receive regular discrimination, I can imagine how frustrating, hurtful and angry that could make you feel. I empathise with you under such circumstances.

In addition, I want to tease out some other threads, play a little devils advocate if I may. I am not trying to inflame, but just to posit some different perspectives.

Let us take the point you made about probabilistic thinking. "The odds are..." is the same type of thinking that also leads others to have a fear that if the black guy is there all night, it could be a drug deal. There is no evidence that it may be the case, but it is just based on probabilistic thinking. It is a difficult topic and my ex girlfriend from years ago, a criminal lawyer who was adopted into a family where her biological mother was white, and her step father was black, together with a black sister. She was I suspect of Indian heritage, although she would never divulge to me, for some strange reason. We used to argue over the topic of probabilistic thinking. Me, having done statistics for part of my degree was all primed over the intricacies of the topic, and understanding how it all works gives you insights that I would not otherwise have had. I used to argue that if you know nothing else, if someone came from a council estate, they are more likely to be a criminal than if they didn't. The facts support that. Don't kill the messenger! She would argue, you cannot say that because they may be innocent. I would reply, of course they may be innocent. But if you have no other data, they are more likely to be a criminal relative to someone who didn't come from a council estate. Now this is not to be insulting to anyone from a council estate, as in my younger years, I had a sales job selling to council estates and I spent day in day out mixing with, and talking to those living on the estates. I have probably been in more council houses than anyone on this forum. I've been in hundreds!

Let me be clear, I am not saying that if you are from a council house, you are more likely to be a criminal than not a criminal. To suggest I am saying that is to completely distort what I am saying. All I am talking about is the rate. e.g. making up numbers, it could be 2% from private housing and 4% from a council estate. I have no idea of the actual numbers, but since I used to sell housing insurance, I have good knowledge of postcode rated cost for house insurance and the risk of theft!

So, after that rather wordy intro above, my point is that because people will often think probabilistically, the far higher incarceration rates of black verses white will lead people to believe that the risk is higher. To take race out of the equation, if I walked into a white inner city ghetto, I would feel the risk to my personal safety has shot up. That has nothing to do with race. But it is the same type of thinking.

I want to distinguish between people thinking about risk, and people who are just anti-black because they don't care, they are ignorant, they are just plain racist. Some might say probabilistic thinking if applied to risk for black people is racist, but if you say that, then it makes it more difficult to say that whites benefit because of x,y, and z.

If I was black, I would probably feel very annoyed, frustrated and probably angry too, especially if I was treated differently based on my skin colour. For me, I think the solution is to get crime rates down in black ghettos. That is not an easy solution. Some of these places are like traps where everybody is doing xyz and so you end up doing the same. There is similarly plenty of crime in white ghettos too. But I think the difference is that there is a larger middle-class white population and so that thins out the average crime rate of white verses black, if you see what I mean.

Gina, do you think my comments are off the mark? Or have any merit? Or have I missed the big picture? Your insight into this is something that only you could bring to the table.

I hope you don't find my comments offensive @GinaWhipp as they are not meant to be, and my intent is always to try to understand and to give different angles on things. Many people don't like to broach these topics because they can be a minefield and fear it might get labelled racist by not towing the company line. But I don't fear any accusations because if people feel that way about rational analysis of topics, then they are deluding themselves, IMHO!

 

[Isaac]

@Tera
well a LOT has happened in this thread over the weekend since we last quoted each others' posts. I can honestly say I am glad to hear others' opinions, specifically I am glad Gina chimed in to this thread. @Jon I like the fact that we have this forum. Yes, it can be a little uncomfortable or difficult at times, but Americans need to learn to be OK with discussing political issues in general, it's something we are very afraid of most people follow the "never discuss politics or religion" mantra, while in many other countries I get the impression it's much more normal to openly discuss them. I think open is better than silent.
Back to you Tera, I wanted to clarify something. Since (as we know) this situation has come to encompass a number of different (but perhaps related) issues and I didn't want it to come across as if I was denying all of them. Police brutality is a horrible issue and one worth trying to solve ASAP. I think very few people dispute that any more - very few. It is my opinion that for the most part, police brutality is perpetrated by individuals, not any rules in the system - BUT I am open on that, and if we can find systemic ways to decrease it (rather than just punishing individuals, which in this case is already being done), then I am ALL FOR IT. Blacks may be treated roughly more often than whites are. If so - and in cases where they didn't do anything to deserve this, like George - then appropriate punishments need to be made to the police. Whether in general, blacks in America are suffering under the thumb of systemic racism is a very different question, and one that I think is the bigger question right now.

I'm only 40 years old, so I can't speak for earlier times, but right now we have a myriad of laws protecting minorities. Equality-type BANKING laws, Equality-type HOUSING laws, Equality-type UNIVERSITY laws, Equality-type EMPLOYMENT laws. I grew up in a poor white rural family wearing used clothing without cable tv or going to restaurants or spending $ on anything. My parents had no extra money for anything except food and shelter. However, I was fully able avail myself of the same opportunities that are available to all. I worked while going to community college (a very cheap, 2-year starting place for getting a college degree). I continued working while attending the last 2 years of college, at an affordable state-subsidized 4 year school, part time and not on campus. I made mostly low wages and worked hard. But I still graduated from college with no favors from anyone and zero student debt. I married and now live in the suburbs in a good part of town with 2 children. Some people might say I am living comfortably and privileged. But what I did is available to 100% of the people in the united states. Many of the laws protecting minorities even give them an EDGE over others. I can speak for that, because my family experienced it.....My 2 children, being half-hispanic due to my wife, have now gotten partial scholarships which are only available to minorities. There are TONS of things out there like that, actually providing some degree of special treatment to minorities.
Yes, some people grow up in rough communities with more baggage. But everyone has the opportunity to avail themselves of the same general, overall basic stuff. There may be racism in this country - some people don't like other races. I think it goes in all directions. Some people avail themselves of the opportunities that exist and some people take every opportunity to blame their lack of achievement on others. This is what I witness. None of the things I have in life are because of the color of my skin, they are because of steps I took that are 100% available to everyone.

I've lived in 8 different states in this country from the midwest to california and in between. What I generally see is minorities being treated with extra consideration - 'kid gloves' you might say, not the opposite. I'm talking about from the SYSTEM. In the USA, our legal and judicial system has actually become so sensitive to the issues of race in employment, that most companies actually operate on a "quota". Meaning, they have a goal where they have to achieve such-and-such percentage of minorities being hired. That means that no matter whether the hiring manager thinks a given applicant might be a terrible fit, they hire them anyway to fill a quota. The benefit of that goes to minorities. In many of these such cases, the system actually favors minorities.
Personal racism certainly exists, but I think by and large the system affords everyone the same opportunities.

Having said that, I continue listening to all sides, open to the possibility that I have more to learn.

 

[Jon]

@pisorsisaac@gmail.co...

It is my opinion that for the most part, police brutality is perpetrated by individuals, not any rules in the system

That is my perspective, and consequently you will never eradicate it. I also think probabilistic thinking also plays its part, the solution to which is a lot harder. It is not irrational to think that way, because that is how we survived as a species through millennia. And it goes in all directions, not just white perspectives on black. It goes black on white, tall on short, fat on thin, and so on. It permeates every part of nature and reality. To me, the solution is to eradicate the reason for this probabilistic thinking to exist in the first place.

Let me give an example with religion. Moderate Muslims may be very frustrated with Islamists who are bombing everything left, right and centre. It tars everyone with the same brush, and unfairly so.

Tackle the root cause of the problem. In the black community, I think poverty is one of the big root causes. It doesn't matter what race you are, where there is poverty, there are much higher crime rates. If I was born in an inner city white ghetto, there is a much higher chance that I would have been a criminal, instead of pompously pontificating from my ivory tower.

Personal racism certainly exists, but I think by and large the system affords everyone the same opportunities.

I think the system affords everyone the same opportunities. But I would like to add that the system is run by people. Those people will have a view. My above blurb covers some of that. The net effect is that it is probable that if you are black, your opportunities are technically the same, but experientially hindered by the human element.

 

[GinaWhipp]

@Jon
I strongly agree with your premise on *problematic thinking* and yes, it goes both ways. However, you mention crime statics. A Black teenager goes to jail for stealing a bag of chips, his only crime to date, 6 years ago, he's still there. He is now a static but to me that is a false\positive. And make no mistake I'm not saying there is no crime or no Black on Black crime but really? Six years and counting for a bag of chips that was probably less than a dollar at the time. Part of the problem is there is no equality when it comes down to sentences to fit the crime. I digressed a bit there, going back on track...

Unfortunately, if that is what you see then yep, you think *all* instead of just the *few*. So if you look at the numbers it *seems* high especially if you look at the percentage of the population that is Black against the percentage that is incarcerated. But if you take into consideration the ones like the example I mentioned above you start see the system is not equal and because poorer (and I'll put all races in this group) people most likely will not have bail, get a public defender who convinces them to take a plea for whatever reason or the 18 year old that committed suicide because he had been in jail for three years and STILL hadn't had a bail hearing you start to see the bigger picture. Again not disputing that there is a problem with crime in inner cities and among Black people but it's not the ONLY problem.

Then you have the media, they want headlines and they do go overboard (one of the reason I can't be bothered with televised news) but the Black person commits a crime and his picture is plastered all over the TV, if he's white we get his name unless he's a serial killer. Yep, that is exactly why I stopped watching the news in my 20's. Movies seemed to be geared towards portraying Black men as drug dealers. Oh, it's finally gotten better but in my younger days, he*ll I wouldn't want to talk to a Black man if I believed that! We used to sit around and take bets who long the Black guy was going to last before getting killed off or sent to jail. I can't remember what movie it was that the Black guy actually made to the end of the movie and lived but I do remember we sat there stunned. Stunned! I say all this to say it doesn't help when peoples perception is based on their environment and their environment misrepresents.

We had an Incident* in a school were a Black boy did not have a father present and the school sent out a memo to the parents, it was Father-Son Day, asking if one of the other Dad's could step up. The auditorium was filled, filled with Black men. Did that story go viral? Nope, not a peep unless you Black Twitter, yep, there is such a place. Black men are stepping up all over the place and Black women as well but no one hears about it. If the only image you see is Black crime then okay I get it but when do you say let me *look* beyond that? I'm not saying people need to go out of their way but *open* your eyes. I do not think because the White meth dealer they busted on block (we all banned together to get rid of him) means all White people are bad, so why is that assumption made about Black people? Where I live we have White drug dealers, not too many Black people in my neighborhood, but I don't slap the label on all of them. Why isn't the equal treatment given to Black people?

Then there's the other side Redlining, started around 1933, which was designed to find affordable housing for White Americans and got turned into shoving Black (and other non-white into certain neighbors) with little or no money you have the perfect storm for crime. And when they prospered, look up the Tulsa Oklahoma massacre and Rosewood as examples (there are many more), they *beaten down*. We had a case of Redlining in Ohio about 15 years ago, so yep, it's still happening. (They got *caught* and it cost them dearly, they'll not try that again.) I am not for drug dealers, looter, burglars and the like but I have enough sense to know that they are going to feed their families by hook or crook. People talk about all the laws for *equal* housing, *equal* jobs, etc. but the forget that those are dependent on fair people running them.

So no, there is not an easy solution to any of it but there is an answer, equality and perhaps education. Schools in these areas (I am referring to poor areas) are severely lacking. But is start with tearing the rug up, rip the band aide off, admit there is a problem. And for goodness sake, not another *program* or *law* because they are dependent on fairness. They are also expect the people needed help to know how to navigate this program. You can't build a nice homes and throw apartment dwellers in there with no knowledge. They don't know about maintenance, they've never done it before. Funny story, my brother bought his first house, winter came, he had to call my Mom to find out how to turn on the heat and he graduated from Harvard! We laugh about that now but it points to what I'm saying. Oh, and he couldn't buy the house in the neighborhood he wanted to live so he bought an empty lot and built the house he the neighborhood he wanted live in. He met some resistance when he moved in but after about 6 months and a house warming party his neighbors finally figured out he didn't sell drugs. They (married with kids now) moved to Paris and he's staying there, at least for now.

P.S. I do not take what you are saying or asking as offensive. If we (and by we I am saying all of us) don't *talk* to each other without being defensive we don't learn, we don't understand, we don't grow and we will never see each other as equals.

 

[Jon]

What do you think of the plea bargain system in the states? Maybe I have only seen the negative side of it, where people admit to crimes they did not commit because not doing so outweighed the risk of a severe jail term. It seems pretty harsh to me, even if cost efficient!

I do not know what sort of sentences people get for whatever crimes over in the US. In the UK, I always think it is way too lenient! The US does have a high number of inmates per capita compared to the rest of the world.

I want to bring up Trump, and I know the very sound of his name sends shivers down your spine , but let us call him creature X so we can get over that part. What do you think of creature X's attempts for prison reform, with the First Step Act? Do you think that is a positive thing for the black community? I do not know enough about what it entails, but my limited understanding is to avoid the cycle of crime, where you go to jail, do time, come out again but then end up going straight back in. That seems a very positive thing to me, at least in intent.

And what has Obama done for the black community? I think it is good that he became president, even if I disagree with his political leanings, because it is symbolic in the progression of society, just like Nelson Mandela becoming president in South Africa. But what did he do in his 8 years of presidency for the black community, apart from the obvious hope that it brings?

 

[Pat Hartman]

Back in the early 70's when teachers were allowed to teach, one of my good friends was teaching 4th grade. He went into class one day and announced that brown-eyed people were special and had certain privileges (his eyes were brown). Needless to say the rest of the children were quite unhappy about their reduction in station. The next day, the class had a conversation about racism and discrimination and the following week, he pulled the same stunt except this time, blue-eyed people were the "special" ones just to drive home what it feels like to be on the wrong side of discrimination. This time, they only got a couple hours into the experiment before the class rose up and said they got it. Today, this would be so politically incorrect that he would almost certainly be fired. But he said that the class learned the lesson well and even bullying among his students stopped because they understood what the other side felt like.

When my daughter was born, I stayed home for a few months and made friends with one of my neighbors. We started hanging out at the park and in the laundry room and eventually dinners with our husbands. After about 5 months when the highlight of my day became "Search for Tomorrow", I decided I had to go back to work and Dorothy offered to take care of my daughter for a couple of years until hers went to kindergarten because she liked staying home. This was a godsend as any working mother might imagine. I could get up in the morning, change my daughter's diaper, give her a bottle and take care of myself. Then I could take her downstairs to Dorothy who would bath her, feed her breakfast, dress her and take care of her the rest of the day. Eventually Dorothy went back to work and so I found daycare for Christine. She was there about three days and came home and asked, "Is Dorothy black?" You don't refer to your friends by their skin color so Christine had never heard my husband and I or our friends refer to Dorothy as black, so I just explained that "black" was a skin color the same way that blue was an eye color and blond was a hair color. She understood and that was that.

Sadly, the Democrats are trying very hard divide us again into little boxes by immutable characteristics. They blame it on the Republicans but that is just "transference" which is a psychology term that means projecting onto others actions/thoughts/etc that you have yourself.

 

[Jon]

I think in all these things, we should look at intent, more than what was said or happened. To do otherwise will result in just alienating vast numbers of people who mean no harm but end up lumped together as bad people. We are not robots. We all put our foot in it! Lets have some tolerance for one another, whenever possible.

 

[GinaWhipp]

@Jon
Too funny, you can say his name I just won't get into *his* politics or him specifically, not going there.

First Step Act, well, that deals with Federal prisons. Who do you think is in Federal prisons? Just look at the types of crimes and you'll see what I mean. That is not prison reform for the masses. So, okay for a start, maybe but it is still doesn't deal with the issue. Like how did we get to the point where we have city populations in prisons.

I always love <insert sarcasm here> when I hear that question. (And not picking on you or putting your question down.) Why do people think he was *supposed* to do something for the Black community? He was President of the United States of America, not Black people. I expected him to do what's best for everyone. Did I agree with everything he did? Nope, not by a long shot but I will give him a A for effort and a B- for application (feeling eyes glaring at me now). His election did give me hope that things were changing. Obliviously, those things were still *under the rug.*

I expect the President of the United States of America to be fair, honest and impartial. Oh, and to believe in science, that would be nice.

 

[GinaWhipp]

@Pat Hartman
Just to comment on your first paragraph. That lesson is still taught at least my daughter got it and my grandchildren got it they are just using colored scarves now. They usually do it during Black History month (which seems ridiculous to separate as it it's intertwined but okay).

 

[Pat Hartman]

I'm glad to hear the lesson is being taught but neither my daughter nor my grandchildren got that lesson at school although they did get it at home. Maybe my friend Jimmy started the whole thing 50 years ago

I object to things like Black history month and the Black Caucus in Congress and all Black colleges, etc. Segregation died a long time ago. Why bring it back. I've read reports of colleges wanting to create Black only dorms. Will that really unite us or does it further the Democrat policies of putting us int little boxes and not letting us be friends. I think there were also Black only graduation ceremonies at some colleges this year due to COVID-19. If it is racist to exclude Blacks from groups, then it is racist to exclude whites from groups. Period.

Who writes the history books? Who authorizes the purchase of said books? Why do history books not include many Black folk or women as part of the course of teaching history? I don't really think Blacks or women are specifically excluded, I think it might be that there is so much to stuff into each segment that only the most prominent figures get included. But that's just like reporting in the media. The bias starts by someone deciding what story is news. I guess, I'm going to have to get some of the material that is taught during BHM so I can learn what the history books forgot. I can see creating specialized history classes for high school in college that go in depth into certain periods or subjects that are only skimmed if touched at all in the general history classes. I would certainly have taken a couple of those as electives if they were offered.

 

[Pat Hartman]

@Gina,
Six years and counting for a bag of chips that was probably less than a dollar at the time.
Can you provide an actual reference for this anicdote? Name, year, city would do and I'll research it. This week 60 Minutes did a segment on the punishment for "failure to protect". If one guardian abuses a child and the other doesn't report it, they are charged with "failure to protect" in some states. The point of the segment was that the people who committed the abuse frequently got lesser sentences than the other person. The documented case was 2 years of time served while awaiting trial for the father but 30 years for the mother!!!!!

The mainstream media does not report events like the black dads stepping up for Dad-day and other positive events in black communities. Why? You can answer it yourself. Who runs the mainstream media? What is their objective? Same comments go for crime. Although in this case, "if it bleeds, it leads" is their mantra. I think the statistics show more violent crime by blacks so there would be more reporting of violent crimes. There are certainly more gun deaths by blacks in big cities like Chicago but that doesn't fit the narrative either so we never hear about that.

You are absolutely correct about needing honest people to run the programs. Competency is important also. Government programs need oversight and they never seem to have it not to mention that it is virtually impossible to fire a government worker. Here, we need to change how unions for federal, state, and municipalities operate. This would help with the problem of keeping officers who are repeatedly accused of abuse on the streets. At a minimum, they should be given desk jobs if their actions didn't warrant firing. Having been a card-carrying member of the Teamsters union in my youth (another story), I can say that unions have outlived their usefulness.

I'm not saying your waitress wasn't a racist but I had at least two similar experiences in "corporate America" with a male manager. In one case, my assistant and I had frequent meetings in the early stages of design with one of our primary users. After the third meeting, Keith said to me - "Did you notice that Rich always directs his questions to me?" I said I did and to his credit, Keith never answered. So, I would answer and Rich would direct the next question to Keith. Then Keith suggested that we play with him. From that point on, we always allowed Rich to sit first and Keith sat on one side and I sat on the other so that Rich literally had to turn to face us. It was like playing ping-pong with his head and we got a good chuckle out of it. To his credit, Rich eventually got the point. How could he not when we made his behavior so obvious. At a different job I had another manager who simply didn't hear a single word I said. It didn't matter what I suggested, he would ignore it and move on so in this case, I had to conspire with our consultant from the company who's product we were customizing. I would tell Bob, what I thought we should do and if he agreed, Bob would tell the manager. And we ended up doing what I suggested I later found out that my real boss (I was a DBA at the time and "matrixed" to the development team to support database changes and conversion issues) didn't want to hire me but he was told he needed a woman manager for the company's EEO stats and since I was qualified, I was it. Given the behavior of the manager of the team I was assigned to work with as well as my own managers attitude, it was quite clear why the company had bad EEO stats.

And then we get to why was Chauvin still on the police force? Look to the police unions. Here's a quote from a news article that says it all."

Since December 2012, two of the officers involved in Floyd's death drew a combined 13 complaints, and since 2006, Chauvin had been reviewed for three shootings. The officers were repeatedly accused of treating victims with callousness or indifference, failing to file a report when a crime was alleged and, in at least one case, using an unnecessary amount of force in making an arrest.

Some of the problems associated with keeping Chauvin on the force have been attributed to Amy Klobuchar but she was running for the Senate at the time and essentially out of the loop when the DA decided to not prosecute him.

 

[GinaWhipp]

Going off memory, the goal was to create patriots who would defend the America. (This does not exclude reading, writing and arithmetic.) Brown people (American-Indian, Black, etc.) were not considered American and so the books were *scrubbed* to exclude anything that referenced non-white people. Moving forward, and as more integration started taking place some c, late 1900's, a very minor amount, start creeping in, maybe because of the desegregation of schools but can't swear to that. I know that those books account of American history has not changed since then. I do remember the kids getting smarter and the drop out rate went thru the roof, at least in New York. It was somewhere around that time that Black History Month showed up. Perhaps because *demanded* it or maybe someone realized, if you teach them all of American History why would they bother. I do know I did not learn it from school, I learned mine from books and my family and at our church.

I too will never understand why they just don't *fix* the books. Though I will say I have fond memories of sitting around listening to stories from my family. They lived it and you can't get a better perspective than that. I even bought a Black History Encyclopedia to pass on because those stories, well they have all passed on. Really wish I had the fore thought to record those.

I get the Black colleges, if that history is missing from other colleges (and it is, I went to one) then why not create an atmosphere where that can taught and discussed openly without waiting for one month per year? Perhaps if it was properly integrated there would be need for them but reality is there isn't.

 

[GinaWhipp]

@Pat Hartman

Here's the reference you asked for...

Jailed Ferguson Protester Joshua Williams Wants to Be Out There With Everyone

In a rare interview, the activist opens up about the George Floyd protests, police brutality, and the conditions in the Missouri Eastern Correctional Center after a staffer came down with coronavirus.

www.gq.com

The documented case was 2 years of time served while awaiting trial for the father but 30 years for the mother!!!!!

And yep, that kind of *stuff* happens ALL the time, drives me nuts.

As stated, one of the reasons I gave up on the News. I now read Associated Press and Reuters (sometimes, they are starting to wear on my last nerve). I also know people all over the place, at least in places I am *interested* in so I just pick up the phone and ask what happened. When I was younger, you got the facts when you watched the News. Then something happened, must have been what you say "if it bleeds, it leads". Whatever it was they lost me ages ago. I just need the facts, I can make my own judgement and have my own opinion, no help required.

We agree whole-heartily on Unions. They had a place, workers were being used and abused but right now they hold too much power and, IMO, have outgrown their usefulness. (I can just hear my mother rolling here eyes. The Nurse's Union is doing right by the Nurse's.) Hmm, so maybe they need oversight?

It is unfortunate that women in IT get so little respect and you have to out maneuver the prevailing parties. And we were here first! Women and Black women at that, helped get the first man on the moon, got NASA's first computer up and running, Grace Hopper is considered the programmer. Women broke Hitler's code! There are so many more, how did it happen that we are now fighting to be respected in this field. Geez, my head hurts. (Hmm, I think I can the guys going to Google to confirm )

I saw that on Chauvin and had to read it twice! Like really? Does that mean they are going to re-examine all his previous arrests? Yep, those Unions can go but then we need to even go deeper than that. The Union did not bury the the report. The Union did not bury the older complaints. H*ll, even the report that was filed on Floyd was inaccurate, well, let's just call a lie a lie. Are they so overwhelmed they don't even have time to confirm and verify? I am not holding Amy Klobuchar responsible, not high enough up. If the report never makes it to her, if she was in office, then how would she know. There were four Officers there, four of them. Okay, no one wants to be a tell all but no way I'm letting that slide. And where was IA? How many complaints before someone goes, we may need to look into this? Begs the question, is he being prosecuted because of *what* happened or because we all *saw* what happened? Would this have been buried as well? This is just a bad situation all around and unfortunately, not unique.

 

[AccessBlaster]

Unfortunately for Mr Floyd he will never get justice for his murder, the movement that pretends to have his best interests in mind was hijacked decades ago. Mr Floyd and the others that came before him are just pawns. Mr Floyd will used to further an anti-capitalist Marxism–Leninism agenda.

These groups will use any tragedy to further their ideology. Mr Floyd is just a means to an end .

Just look for the symbology used, it's not hidden it's on full display they are telling you what the future will be. They been telling us for at least a century, we just don't listen very well.

 

[Steve R.]

These groups will use any tragedy to further their ideology. Mr Floyd is just a means to an end .

An unanswered question. Why did the death of Mr. Floyd trigger such outrage?

On the surface, it does not even appear to be a racial incident. To my knowledge, Derek Chauvin has not been linked to any anti-Black organizations. I don't know if Mr. Chauvin had any social media accounts. If he did, I'm sure that they have been already well scrutinized (especially by the left wing media) for any racially prejudicial comments. So far, no such accusations seem to have arisen. Based on the apparent lack of evidence that Mr. Chauvin was motivated by racial animosity, why the public outrage?

Of course outrage over police use of excessive force is justified, but that concept has been subverted to "force" it into a racial incident. Some will claim, using selective interpretation of statics, that Blacks are more prone to being selectively abused by the police. Even if one accepts that interpretation there appears be nothing unique in Mr Floyd's unfortunate death that would trigger such outrage.

A side issue, which has been expressed may times but seems to never gain motivational public awareness is black on black violence that claims "X" lives in various highly urban cities such as Baltimore and Chicago. Why no rage from advocacy groups such as Black Lives Matters demanding that blacks stop killing each other?

 

[Pat Hartman]

The KKK wore white masks. Antifa wears black masks. But, they're the same Democrat fascists under the masks. "Black lives matter", my a**. Tell that to the small business owners whose lives the rioters ruined. Where are the hypocritical celebrities who are bailing "protesters" out of jail. Wouldn't their money be better spent helping the victims of the "protesters"?

 

[Pat Hartman]

60 minutes should do a piece on all the small businesses ruined by the "protesters". Let the people see who the real victims of riots are.

 

[Jon]

This thread is rather long and emotions here are probably running high. I think it was a few pages back that I asked a simple question: Where is the evidence that the death of George Flloyd was because of racism? We have worldwide riots because of it, all about racism.

I've heard and discussed at length in a too and fro. But to get back to my original question, can someone here who believes it is due to racism please show me the evidence? I don't mean evidence of police being racist, but of this particular officer being racist towards George Flloyd. Otherwise, you will fall into the same trap of saying because a black guy commits a crime, then all black people are criminals. You cannot tar everybody with the same brush, be they black or white.

I am waiting...

Edit: I just had a thought, based on reading this:

Of course outrage over police use of excessive force is justified, but that concept has been subverted to "force" it into a racial incident.

What happened was police brutality. From what I can see so far, there is zero evidence of racism. However, no one seems to care about police brutality against white people. This is clear racism, is it not? When you only care about black people suffering from police brutality and ignore the white victims, this to me is a double standard and the definition of racism itself. Or do those who lean left view it differently?

To view the statistics from 2019, 370 whites were shot dead and 235 blacks. What I really would prefer is data that showed unlawful killing of citizens, not those shot dead. But since I don't have that data, I have to run with this. I'm not sure if you barely get a headline when a white guy is shot dead by the police. No riots. Or am I wrong? I want to be wrong, because then I can learn something.