Shootings in US schools

[Rich]

What do you think would happen if you ended the gun culture in the first place?

 

[nikkypickles]

It is the possibility that is the point. Given the fact that armed B&E's actually take place with this knowledge, what do you think would happen if they knew, for certain, they were in no danger?

They will still tip the balance in their favour. If they are in no danger of being killed, they are still in danger of being caught - by a witness if not by the homeowner; however remote the possibility of that happening, it is still greater than a 0% chance. Which is too much risk for the average burglar.

I'm sure I heard or read some statistics which said that the majority of B&E crimes were opportunist crimes. They know there is a possibility of confronting an armed homeowner, yet take no offensive weapons with them (unless they do happen to be carrying a .45 - less likely but not unlikely in the UK) - but from the point of view of the homeowner, the intruder could've meticulously planned the invasion, complete with whatever means necessary to kill/maim etc., and is taking no chances. Which ups the ante, and turns it into an arms race.

The trouble with statistics, of course, is that you can make them say anything you want them to say.

 

[Bodisathva]

What do you think would happen if you ended the gun culture in the first place?

We'd become whiny, fish-n-chips eating, tea-drinkers
It's not just a gun culture, it is a direct result of the fact that the gun defined us in the early years. It's part of who we are. Just like the English conviction over a monarch. It's just who you are.

The trouble with statistics, of course, is that you can make them say anything you want them to say.

Agreed. So ignore statistics and consider human nature. Fear brings compliance. Initially we learn fear of bodily harm so we do what Mom & Dad want to avoid the spanking. Then we learn about emotional repercussions and the spanking isn't the issue as much as Mom & Dad being disappointed in us. Later, the repercussions are self inflicted in the form of a conscience and we become or own punisher. Unfortunately, this progression doesn't happen with all people so you are forced to move to step one...fear of physical harm.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Was it worth taking a life for a few dollars, is that really how cheap life is in America?

The issue wasn't the money. The robber was himself armed with a pistol, which he had already trained on the woman. When she screamed in terror, she (probably inadvertantly) distracted him long enough for her male compantion to draw and fire his own weapon (three quick rounds at close range. End of threat.) Now, after further investigation and interviews of the neighborhood witnesses, police are filing no charges and have already closed the case as "Justifiable Homicide." So in other words, the man with the concealed handgun acted responsibly and correctly.

The REAL issue was that once the robber had the money, if he happened to be high on something, there was a significant chance that he would decide to leave behind no witnesses. Even if not high, he might have decided to make prosecution that much harder by eliminating the witnesses anyway.

While I agree about the dollars vs. lives issue (see - I'm not TOTALLY irrational, ... just American ), the unknowns introduced by the robber having the gun leaves you with a significant fear for your own life. And in that case, I'll make the "get them before they get you" choice EVERY TIME.

We even tell a joke about the Amish that follows this line of thought. An Amish farmer hears a noise downstairs. He has his shotgun upstairs so he gets it and goes to investigate. The burglar is gathering up some antiques. The Amish farmer says, "Friend, I would do thee no harm for all the world, but thou standest where I'm about to shoot."

 

[The_Doc_Man]

On a different note, the gun culture isn't always a good deterrent anyway. But it sure helps to clean up the gene pool.

There is a documentable case where a guy drove up to a Houston gun store at which two police cars were already parked. Also two pickup trucks with gun racks visible (though empty) in the back window. Not part of a strip mall, but just a stand-alone gun store and shooting range.

So the guy walks into the gun store, fires one round at the ceiling and starts to say "everybody give me your money." At least, that's what they THINK he was going to say, but the store owner, two civilian customers, one of the two police officers, and the store owner's barricaded guard ALL shot him before he could finish the sentence. Oh, the barricaded guard was using a shotgun at range less than 20 feet.

The unofficial cause of death? Terminal stupidity combined with survival of the fittest in its purest form.

 

[jsanders]

On a different note, the gun culture isn't always a good deterrent anyway. .

Taken out of context, but perfect as a segway

I have always thought that for most people, pepper spray would be a better protection against would be assailants.

A lot of people, most I imagine, would hesitate when confronted with the prospect of taking a life. So a non-lethal alternative would come in very handy at that moment.

 

[Rich]

I have always thought that for most people, pepper spray would be a better protection against would be assailants.

A lot of people, most I imagine, would hesitate when confronted with the prospect of taking a life. So a non-lethal alternative would come in very handy at that moment.

Christ Jen, for once you're making a sensible suggestion

 

[Brianwarnock]

In the paper today it makes a comparison between burglary in the UK and US, many authorities believe that over 50% of burglaries in the UK take place whilst somebody is in the house, resulting in some homeowners getting hurt and sometimes killed, in the US the figure is 13%, it suggests that the reason for the difference is that the right to defend youself and your property has not been taken away from US citizens, and thus the burglers are more reluctant to take a chance on being shot for what might or might not be worth stealing.

Brian

 

[Brianwarnock]

Christ Jen, for once you're making a sensible suggestion

Unfortunately pepper spray is illegal in this country, as is anything that might harm or cause distress to a mugger or burgler

Brian

 

[jsanders]

In the paper today it makes a comparison between burglary in the UK and US, many authorities believe that over 50% of burglaries in the UK take place whilst somebody is in the house, resulting in some homeowners getting hurt and sometimes killed, in the US the figure is 13%, it suggests that the reason for the difference is that the right to defend youself and your property has not been taken away from US citizens, and thus the burglers are more reluctant to take a chance on being shot for what might or might not be worth stealing.

Brian

In the U.S. professional burglary is doesn’t really overlap with violent crime; as you indicated previously.

Penetrating a “hardened” target is not the typical objective of a burglar, getting something to sell is.

So most residential burglaries take place at day time and most burglaries of commercial property take place at night.

 

[Rich]

Just like the English conviction over a monarch.

The monarch no longer kills people, we the people took that power away centuries ago.

It's just who you are.

In America's case then, trigger happy

 

[Rich]

Unfortunately pepper spray is illegal in this country, as is anything that might harm or cause distress to a mugger or burgler

Brian

" Yes but look, what we need is a public debate on whether criminals now have more civil rights than victims".
Yeah sure Bliar, what's your wife gonna do when we strip her of her lucrative income?

 

[The_Doc_Man]

The problem with pepper spray is that it isn't reliable either. We always have had this problem and always will. The problem is TIME. You don't want to give your attacker TIME to do you more harm.

The reason that the .45 caliber automatic weapon was invented was because smaller weapons didn't have adequate stopping power for a drugged / berserk combatant. So the bigger slug was required to do a knockdown on the rampaging attacker. Shotguns worked but didnt' have the effective range. Rifles were causing through-and-through wounds that were EVENTUALLY debilitating - but not immediately effected. Hence weapons with higher caliber and larger powder charges.

With some of the drugs that people get on, pepper spray is just like an apertif, adds a little spice to the conversation but has no lasting effect. For instance, from what I understand from a police officer I play tennis with, if you get a guy on PCP, you need either a big game net, a team of five or six cops to do some serious tackling and throw-downs, or a big gun - or track shoes. That's it, that's your choices. That's why I prefer a moderate-to-large caliber handgun over pepper spray. You don't want to give your assailant ANY CHANCE of harming you.

And by trying to say that my attitude makes me "judge, jury, and executioner" you omit a very important factor. I might not have the TIME for a police officer to come out and arrest my assailant so that s/he can go before a judge and jury. The American (and, from what I hear, many other) police departments can be very slow to respond.

Particularly in N'Awlins, we are low on police officers anyway because the overall population of the city is so badly reduced. The police hierarchy has to make priority decisions about patrol routes. Therefore the police are slow to respond in some of the harder-hit areas.

The pious mouthings about "Oh, so now you are judge, jury, and executioner" leave out one more thing that I would prefer to be in such a confrontation - the last person still standing when the police finally arrive. If you can't understand THAT simple concept, you have no business criticizing me for my opinion.

 

[jsanders]

The reason that the .45 caliber automatic weapon was invented was because smaller weapons didn't have adequate stopping power for a drugged / berserk combatant.

I’m afraid you’re a little off on this one.

Prier to the introduction of semi-automatic pistols in the late 19th century nearly all handguns had a fairly large caliber, usually between 40 and 50 caliber with some as large as 60 caliber.

So large stopping power actually preceded semi-automatic weapons. The 45 was introduced by colt in 1911 for use by the US military.

 

[jsanders]

The problem with pepper spray is that it isn't reliable either. We always have had this problem and always will. The problem is TIME. You don't want to give your attacker TIME to do you more harm.
.

Ah you have changed the argument from my original assessment of people’s willingness or ability to kill without hesitation to one of effectiveness against PCP addicts.

As I asserted earlier most people without military training (and some with) will hesitate. So if you’re a women in a mall parking lot and a rapist is out for you a whistle and a can of professional strength pepper spray would be a significantly preferable defense over a handgun.

 

[jsanders]

Shotguns worked but didnt' have the effective range.

Shotguns have actually a more effective range than most people can accurately fire large caliber hand guns. Anyway usually less than 75 yards or so. The problem with shotguns for out of the house self protection is obviously their bulk.

For defending your home I can’t imagine a better weapon.

 

[Rich]

The pious mouthings about "Oh, so now you are judge, jury, and executioner" leave out one more thing that I would prefer to be in such a confrontation - the last person still standing when the police finally arrive. If you can't understand THAT simple concept, you have no business criticizing me for my opinion.

Why can't you understand that there is difference between defence and pumping 3 bullets into a person?

 

[Bodisathva]

Why can't you understand that there is difference between defence and pumping 3 bullets into a person?

What would you recommend for your average, felonious , home intruder? Harsh language?

 

[Rich]

What would you recommend for your average, felonious , home intruder? Harsh language?

 

[Greyowlsl]

What would you recommend for your average, felonious , home intruder? Harsh language?

First change your flyscreens into the metal stuff that even even crowbars cant get through (some metal flyscreen), and get a baseball bat insted of a gun so atleast you can hit him without killing him. And if he has a gun then let him take the shit that he wants. And get some good insurance if it happens frequently in your area. Maybe even a house alarm can help.

See if he has a gun and he sees you with a gun then he gets nervous and may shoot you instantly, but if you have a bat then he knows he has the upper hand and dosent have to shoot you unless you advance on him.