Shootings in US schools

Speaking as someone who's licensed to carry concealed and has been present during a shooting while unarmed myself due to compliance with my employer's no weapon policy, I find the idea that this horrible event could have been prevented by banning guns a bit naive. I find a poster over at dBforums, msmeland, has identified the real problem far more eloquently than I ever could: http://www.dbforums.com/showthread.php?t=989246&page=484
 
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I wonder if that could still be used :) but I did think that the NRA quoted the 2nd amendment, or part thereof not English Law.
The NRA would quote Dante if they thought it would help;)

I'm sure you're right, I'm merely pointing out that the whole "militia" preface to the "right to bear and keep arms" in the 2nd Amendment is irrelevant when they point out the common law precedent upon which it is believed the Amendment is based.
 
You are all missing the big picture. if you ban gun , people who want them will still be able to get guns, they will just be going to the criminals and the thugs, the underground elements of society to get them. The majority of the time, crimes are committed with illegally obtained firearms. the perpetrators of these type of acts, VT Columbine etc. would have found a way to get a firearm one way or the other. I do think that there needs to be stricter purchase measures in place. a complete background check, even if they did "voluntarily" go to the institution.

but that is just my opinion

If there were NO legal guns, there would be no gun shops or wholesalers.
Without gun shops, the number of guns being manufactured in and/or imported into the USA would go down dramatically.
With a decrease in the overall number of guns, it stands to reason that there wond't be as many new illegal weapons out there. Unless the suggestion is that none of the guns owned by criminals originally come from legal sources?

At the very least, this would mean that a criminal/lunatic who wanted one would have to work harder to get one and this would deter a lot from bothering. I get the impression that the latest massacre wouldn't have been anywhere near as bad if the guy hadn't been able to stroll into a shop, fill in a few forms, undergo a (clearly ineffective, given what happened) bit of investigation and get one.
 
Remember that a Gun is not dangerous in itself.

Leave a gun alone and it will not harm anybody

Its only when it gets into the hands of a person that the danger potential exist

Neither is a hand grenade, bit I wouldn't want people to be able to have easy access to one just because they promised they were only going to throw it at a target.
 
Yeah, but his points all come from a Sociological instead of a Psychological point of view so we ignore him:p

:D

HAHA I'm the only American making good points...

lghr0148.jpg
 
I get the impression that the latest massacre wouldn't have been anywhere near as bad if the guy hadn't been able to stroll into a shop, fill in a few forms, undergo a (clearly ineffective, given what happened) bit of investigation and get one.

I think that this is the problem:"The investigations". I don't think that there should be no gun shops, but that the investigation should be a lot more effective. Most of the cases seen on TV talks about someone who had problems prior to their final acts. The autorities should take more precautions with someone like that. It shouldn't be that easy to get a gun from a gun shop, just like it shouldn't be as easy to get pills at a drug store.

I think that the US is so affraid to act against someone's freedom that they rather let someone get what he should not than forbid someone that could have the right to get it. Here in Canada, it works the other way around. You don't have the right to get it, until it is proven that you can handle it.
 
as with most perpetrators of such offenses, illegally obtained automatic pistols, serial numbers filed off, untraceable. These guys don't go to the local gun shop and browse the bargain bins, they buy them on the street for $25, use them for nefarious purposes and sell them to the next punk for $25 and the cycle continues.

So you're saying these punks are responsible for all the gun deaths in the US?
By the way how many of these "criminals were criminals before thay carried out these school massacres?:confused:
How many checks are carried out at gun fairs?:confused:
 
As far as the general gun ban goes, I really don't think it would accomplish anything. When you live on an island, maybe it's easier to keep control (somewhat) of what comes into your borders. ;) But what makes any of us think that we'll be more successful at keeping guns from coming in from Mexico than we are drugs? A ban on guns would mostly affect the 99% of us that are law-abiding. :(

Weren't those that perpetrate these killings law abiding citizens to start with?
And don't the Canadians manage quite well?
 
I think that it it easier to get a gun from a gun shop than to get to Mexico, buy one there and bring it back to the US side of the borders.

I'd like to see how many mass killers bought their guns legaly compares to those who bought them on the black market.

I'd also like to see, out of those who bought it from guns shop, how many already had cases with justice or had known psychological problems prior to their final acts.

If someone knows some statistics about that, please share.

Rich --> We, Canadians, can't get guns from USA to Canada 'cause the USA wants to keep them for themself. :p Actualy, there is not a lot of guns that crosses the CAN/USA borders. Most of them though get across via Natives that can get across the borders more easily.

I also believe that we are more scared than Americans about buying things on the black market. It is my impression though and that might be false. But if it is true, is it because Canadian authorities are more serious about it or is it just in our catholic/roman culture?

Also, don't forget that there is many more Americans than Canadians. So any statistic to refer to should be in percent, not in numbers. More people equals more crimes, that is logic. If you are two on an island and you get kill, the island is not safer because they only had one kill in it's history.
 
There's a few percentages in this report Newman, 'course Americans won't like it because it reinforces the statement that American society cares only for one thing "profit":rolleyes:
 
Not that Simple. Guns Don't kill, People(like Animals) Kill

When Guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns and when all law-abiding citizens are disarmed they shall be at the mercy of those that have guns whenever and wherever those gun owners choose to violate society's RIGHTS under the law.

LAW SIMPLY DOES NOT PREVENT ONE FROM BECOMING A VICTIM. Law is not some kind of magic shield that one can hold up to protect oneself even from a physical beating or mugging... Law is what "polite society" agrees to abide by; and what is used to prosecute those that break the law. Those that break the law are not part of "polite society" and don't give a damn about the Law or the consequences of breaking it.

Historically, governments can be as abusive of the governed as criminals are of their victims. That is why there have been revolutions where the people have had to defend themselves against their government oppressors and it's armies. This is true of the Revolutionary War that gave birth to undeniably, the greatest nation on the face of this planet: The United States of America...

Since the birth of this great nation, the people of the United States have been overwhelmingly active is assisting other countries, at their request or evidence of their dire straits, in their struggles for stability, peace and justice. The US has been charitably supporting the less-fortunate, has often pulled US allies' arses out of the fire.. and YES, when necessary, with the use of arms against their allies' attackers or oppressors who were also using arms to attack and oppress. Many of the beneficiaries of this assistance have forgotten or ignore the facts and consciously chose to ignore that their lives would be very different today had not the US aided in those countries' struggles of the past... And they criticize the US and look down their noses at its people, forgetting that the RIGHTS they have today that allow them to do so are in large part thanks to the aid received from their benefactor in time of their most desperate need...

In retrospect, I guess we should have held up a piece of paper with laws written on it and railed at the attackers or oppressors to ABIDE by the "International Law" and Protocols set forth therein. We would have been RIGHT to do so and RIGHT to expect the parties involved to all do what is RIGHT. The problem is not everyone knows what is RIGHT or has a differing opinion about what is RIGHT. It's subjective.

YES, we would have been DEAD RIGHT to do and to expect compliance, but we would have been DEAD all the same! Patrick Henry, a prominent figure in the American Revolution, is known and remembered for his "Give me liberty or give me death" speech. This phrase expresses the heart of our founding fathers...

And our founding fathers were great men, wise beyond their years and THEY made sure that the RIGHT to keep and bear arms was written into the BILL OF RIGHTS of the US Constitution so that future governments could not oppress the people of this nation without trepidation. They sought to ensure that individuals had the RIGHT and RESPONSIBILITY to protect home and hearth from nefarious forces bent on the destruction of this society.

Only the people of the US can allow themselves to be stripped of this RIGHT and that is not very likely to happen in light of historical events. The lesson lost on many is that, “Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.” And Americans of conscience will never allow this.

AS FOR THE DERANGED GUNMAN that took the lives of 33 members of "polite society" here in Virginia not 30 miles from where I live and work. His actions are not condoned by the law that guarantees the RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS, nor by any law, in fact, his actions are abhorred by all. And yet, LAW DID NOT PREVENT THE KILLINGS, because the gunman didn't care. GUNS are not to blame for his derangement or lack of respect for the law or his fellow man...

In his world, he was the judge, juror and executioner and he would have gone to any lengths to fulfill his heinous plan even had he not been able to obtain the guns used from the sources where he did obtained them. No one involved in selling the guns to him had any way, available to them at the time, of knowing the he was a mentally disturbed individual because it is not a crime to be mentally ill, and a criminal background check, checks for exactly that, criminal acts and records. I suppose that this will be the portion of law that will change to prevent anyone who has ever been mentally incapacitated from easily obtaining a firearm AND THAT IS GOOD... We already have guidelines in place that instruct sellers not to sell firearms to obviously disturbed or agitated individuals; but in his case he showed little to no emotion of any kind and the seller couldn't have known. HOWEVER; as with men of evil intent such as he, he very likely would have found another way to fulfill his plan, perhaps a homemade bomb; he had threatened the school anonymously, as we later found out, with bomb threats...

So, if you're looking to find who or what is to blame for this horrendous event, there are plenty of flaws in the system and in human society that failed to dissuade this individual from perpetrating this dastardly deed...

The school was warned by his teachers who witnessed disturbed attitude in his writing and by classmates who were stalked by him... so, IS THE SCHOOL AT FAULT?

The police had him in custody at one time for the stalking of two female classmates and ordered him to undergo psychiatric examination but he was never actually under arrest or charged with anything... The bomb threats could have lead the police to find him out, but the calls were unable to be traced back to him. Had any of these been recorded he would have not been able to obtain firearms from legal vendors or he would have already been in jail... so, ARE THE POLICE AT FAULT? ARE THE DOCTORS WHO EXAMINED HIM AT FAULT? IS THE PHONE COMPANY/SYSTEM AT FAULT?

What about Roommates who ignored the fragile psyche of their peer, not including him, not making him feel an integral part of their shared school experience, not demonstrating tangibly for him brotherly love, or the milk of human kindness that was so missing from his world view… so, ARE HIS ROOMMATES AND INDEED FORMER CLASSMATES AT FAULT?

Had other students been armed, would he have so easily overpowered them? This question has been raised as well. Shouldn’t more people/teachers/students be required to and taught to responsibly handle handguns and be allowed to carry them by permit? Faced with the possibility of being shot for taking another’s life, would that have acted as a deterrent to the gunman? The Rifle Club members on the VT campus have expressed this sentiment and stated that in the very least they would have not have felt so helpless. And had they encountered the gunman themselves they would not have let the rampage continue had they had their own weapon to defend themselves with.

We could attempt to second guess this situation with the benefit of 20/20 vision hindsight, and we may be able to prevent future incidents such as this, but overall the fault for this happening is the fault of every one of us, the fault of human society, chalk it up to human frailty and apathy toward the plight of our fellowman, even those whose physical proximity is closest to us. This gunman exemplifies the worst of human nature, the essence of evil that lies buried in the hearts of all men, yes all men. He, unlike members of "polite society", was unable to control these emotions and failures and had no real outside help to get or keep these under control, nor did he solicit any for he had no self worth.

He is not the first of his kind, and shall not be the last. He is just the WORST of his kind. The truth is: neither guns, nor their availability are to blame; the path this young man chose was his own, he had other paths to choose but did not. He shunned outside influences of any sort and isolated himself until he began to exist only within the paranoia that overwhelmed him and pushed him forward to his own destruction and the destruction of 33 others.

OPINION GRATIS,

Goh
 
I remember an article in an american magazine (I don't remember which though) which title started with "Canuckistan..." (Canuck = Canada; Istan = Arabian suffix). It was talking about the fact that our borders was a good place for terrorists (add guns, drugs, etc as you like.) to get from outer countries to USA.

I don't know if it is true, but maybe the guns comes from here instead of Mexico. Although this is not good publicity for Canada, I think that the Canadian authorities should investigate that path. If we have some responsabilities in the American black market, we should also take the blame and rise the security.

I also believe that many of them illegal guns are made in the USA and always have been in the USA. The American authorities should also look at themself and take some responsabilities for their underground markets.

I think I'll rent the "Bowling for Columbine" movie. I've never seen it completly. It might help to get other references and other opinions. I liked "Fahrenheit 9/11", but never get the chance to see "Bowling for Columbine".
 
Since the birth of this great nation, the people of the United States have been overwhelmingly active is assisting other countries, at their request or evidence of their dire straits, in their struggles for stability, peace and justice. The US has been charitably supporting the less-fortunate, has often pulled US allies' arses out of the fire.. and YES, when necessary, with the use of arms against their allies' attackers or oppressors who were also using arms to attack and oppress. Many of the beneficiaries of this assistance have forgotten or ignore the facts and consciously chose to ignore that their lives would be very different today had not the US aided in those countries' struggles of the past... And they criticize the US and look down their noses at its people, forgetting that the RIGHTS they have today that allow them to do so are in large part thanks to the aid received from their benefactor in time of their most desperate need...

Damn bloody ungrateful Iraqis, Iranians, Vietnamese, French, Spanish,Indians, Mexicans, Panamanians,Grenadians,Filipinos:rolleyes:
 
I'll switch religion. From now on, I'll pray Holy America instead of Jesus-Christ. ;)
 
Damn bloody ungrateful Iraqis, Iranians, Vietnamese, French, Spanish,Indians, Mexicans, Panamanians,Grenadians,Filipinos:rolleyes:

Yes, the only grateful nation is Japan, whom we bombed hell out of and occupied enough years to establish a firm example. This may be the only way to straighten out the buggers:rolleyes:

In the spirit given,
:D
 
I'll switch religion. From now on, I'll pray Holy America instead of Jesus-Christ. ;)
__________________
Last night, I was in bed looking up at the stars in the sky and thought to myself, “Where the heck is the ceiling?”


This from someone without even a roof over 'is head

:D
 

Since the birth of this great nation, . . . . The US has been charitably supporting the less-fortunate, has often pulled US allies' arses out of the fire.. and YES, when necessary, with the use of arms against their allies' attackers or oppressors who were also using arms to attack and oppress. Many of the beneficiaries of this assistance have forgotten or ignore the facts and consciously chose to ignore that their lives would be very different today had not the US aided in those countries' struggles of the past...


Yes yes, we all worship the USA.:rolleyes: But why is the world a much more dangerous place since 2003?

Col
 

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