Should Abortion be Allowed?

[oumahexi]

I don't know about this being governments responsibility or not. It is certainly not my job to enforce no abortion in the ways you mention.... that would be very hypocritical. But, especially as a woman, I feel it is my responsibility as a Christian to voice what is right and wrong, to not do that (as others here have even mentioned) would be the same as condoning murder in my eyes... But I agree that a person needs to pick their battles, there are several discussions I do not get involved in, because I don't want to argue (I can get heated sometimes), or I just plain don't know enough, even though I know my general stance.

Just to clarify Krystal, you are 100% certain that if you were raped by someone with a genetic mutation that would guarantee your child would, in fact, be the anti-Christ, guaranteeing death and destruction in its wake, you would not have that child aborted?

 

[Kryst51]

I don't agree with abortion, unless there is a very good reason for it (on that subject Krystal, I can't understand a God that would offer us the technology to save a life - through abortion - and condem the use of it) and I do feel very sad for anyone who has had to go through that process for any reason. For the life of me though, I cannot pass judgement and say hand on heart "I would never ever do that" (except for the fact that I'm waaaay past having to worry about that of course ).

Ouma, I completely agree with your sentiment. But I think the issue here is the taking of one life for another. Again, I want to reiterate, that the reason such decisions even exist is because of the effect of sin on the world. I believe that God cries with the loss of every life. (Just as He cried with the sisters of Lazarus when Lazarus died even though He raised him to life again.) One day God will come and rid the earth of sin, and these things will no longer plague us. I know that my opinion here could start the debate about where life begins. I suggest that every person has been planned and designed by God, Psalm 139 says that we are all knitted together in the womb by Him. And that it is a wonderful work of His. I am not saying that the babies life has more value than the mother's only that nothing justifies murdering the baby for the sake of the mother.

 

[Kryst51]

Just to clarify Krystal, you are 100% certain that if you were raped by someone with a genetic mutation that would guarantee your child would, in fact, be the anti-Christ, guaranteeing death and destruction in its wake, you would not have that child aborted?

I would never abort my child. But as this is a more personal question, here I will speak to me and my choices. I believe that God has my days planned, and that there is a specific purpose for my life. There is no way I could ever know who or what my child could be without God speaking to me directly. If God commanded that of me then yes I would. But the thing is, God would not. God is just and unchangeable if nothing else, He would never command me to do something that goes against laws that He has put in place.

 

[oumahexi]

I would never abort my child. But as this is a more personal question, here I will speak to me and my choices. I believe that God has my days planned, and that there is a specific purpose for my life. There is no way I could ever know who or what my child could be without God speaking to me directly. If God commanded that of me then yes I would. But the thing is, God would not. God is just and unchangeable if nothing else, He would never command me to do something that goes against laws that He has put in place.

Oh Krystal, I do hope you never have to cross the bridge where you don't think of the child growing in your belly as your child, I hope you never have to cross the bridge where your theories, trust and faith are put to such an awful test, and I hope that you never lose your innocence.

 

[Kryst51]

Oh Krystal, I do hope you never have to cross the bridge where you don't think of the child growing in your belly as your child, I hope you never have to cross the bridge where your theories, trust and faith are put to such an awful test, and I hope that you never lose your innocence.

I certainly hope not either. Given the fact that doctors were telling my parents to pull the life support away from me and my twin sister who were born 3 months early in 1980, after my moms body went into spontaneous abortion, and the fact that they didn't. I am very conscious of life in the womb. Also I have a friend who works in a neonatal unit here in Houston and she is constantly telling me stories of babies being born much earlier then even I was.

If such a thing ever happens to me, as the scenario you asked me about (excepting the anti-Christ part, as I wouldn't ever know that) I would hope that I would be able to follow through on my convictions.

As an interesting aside, here is another article about that planned parenthood center. Also as an aside, I really do wish that we as the human race did not have to contend with such issues, it just breaks my heart. According to this article 8,000 babies last year were aborted in the Houston area alone.

Edit: Also, I am not as innocent as I seem, I come from a home with a schizophrenice and alcoholic mother, a step-dad who was an alcoholic and a drug abuser, so I have seen and been a part of plenty of hardships that life can offer. My faith and belief is founded on the things that God has brought me through. But I will leave off this vein of the conversation as I know this is not the place for it...

 

[oumahexi]

I certainly hope not either. Given the fact that doctors were telling my parents to pull the life support away from me and my twin sister who were born 3 months early in 1980, after my moms body went into spontaneous abortion, and the fact that they didn't. I am very conscious of life in the womb. Also I have a friend who works in a neonatal unit here in Houston and she is constantly telling me stories of babies being born much earlier then even I was.

If such a thing ever happens to me, as the scenario you asked me about (excepting the anti-Christ part, as I wouldn't ever know that) I would hope that I would be able to follow through on my convictions.

As an interesting aside, here is another article about that planned parenthood center. Also as an aside, I really do wish that we as the human race did not have to contend with such issues, it just breaks my heart. According to this article 8,000 babies last year were aborted in the Houston area alone.

Edit: Also, I am not as innocent as I seem, I come from a home with a schizophrenice and alcoholic mother, a step-dad who was an alcoholic and a drug abuser, so I have seen and been a part of plenty of hardships that life can offer. My faith and belief is founded on the things that God has brought me through. But I will leave off this vein of the conversation as I know this is not the place for it...

LOL, I find most "true Christians" have an innocence about them, regardless of their background. As a non-Christian, I also believe that life is sacred and should be preserved and cherished as much as possible, however, I do have a whole lot of conflict with regard to where do you draw the line? I wouldn't kill an animal, therefore I go through long periods of vegetarianism, but still go back to eating meat. I can't stand the thought of a spider crawling over me in the night so I'll kill any I find in my bedroom and promptly throw up because of it. For these, and many more reasons, I find it difficult to say that I would never ever do (insert anything here).

Having said that, I can, hand on heart, say I would never, ever, ever, have an abortion - I can testify to that because I know for a fact my body would never ever put me in that situation Ah, at last, one less conflict for me to worry about.

 

[scott-atkinson]

Scott, I think you are missing that fundamentally, abortion is a moral question and as such will be answered according to one's moral framework, which various religions & philosophies will be used to answer the question. To say it shouldn't be answered in such context is akin to saying that you can ask a question about arithmetic but you can't answer in mathematical terms, as I see it. People didn't draw their conclusions about abortions in a vacuum, they did so in context of how they approach the world in general - else, they wouldn't be very consistent, would they be?

I don't believe that I am missing the point, the questions is is it right or wrong, is it moral to do this or is it immoral.

A non believer can make this distinction just as well as a believer, so religion does not play a part, it is about your personal view as to whether it is right or wrong.

If religion guides your morals then so be it, but this is not a religious question that can only be answered by those who have faith...

 

[scott-atkinson]

God is just

If God is just, then why did he allow Children to die in the Asian Tsunami, why did he allow children to die in the Haiti earthquake...

or are you gonna give me some nonsense as the priests did in Indonisia by saying that the children died due to sins they committed in their former lives

 

[Banana]

I don't believe that I am missing the point, the questions is is it right or wrong, is it moral to do this or is it immoral.

Still, morals has their sources. As I said, they don't exist in a vacuum but are a part of a much larger worldview we choose to adopt for ourselves, and may include the religion and/or philosophy we adopt. I don't think it is helpful to ignore the worldview and the assumptions behind it when posting an answer to a question. In many ways, the assumptions determine what the answer will be and I do think understanding the assumptions is key here.

A non believer can make this distinction just as well as a believer, so religion does not play a part, it is about your personal view as to whether it is right or wrong.

If religion guides your morals then so be it, but this is not a religious question that can only be answered by those who have faith...

Um, we're actually in agreement- I'm not sure where you got the idea that I would claim only 'believers' have the privilege to answer the question.

 

[Kryst51]

If God is just, then why did he allow Children to die in the Asian Tsunami, why did he allow children to die in the Haiti earthquake...

or are you gonna give me some nonsense as the priests did in Indonisia by saying that the children died due to sins they committed in their former lives

Please see my post about sin that is in all the world, it is inherent in the world itself, not just people, and I do mean ALL people, we are born into it, we sin by the very fact that we do not perfectly follow God's law. EVERYONE will die because sin is present in the world, I don't mean that in a mean way, just that the aging process and every kind of death is there because sin is in the earth and on the earth. I am not picking on anyone, everything unjust in this world is a result of a fallen world that will one day be restored and redeemed... That is the history the Bible gives. God grieves just as much over the lives of these poor people as you and I and most of the world does, that is why He is not leaving us in this sin, but provides a way out of it, and a hope for a better future.

 

[Brianwarnock]

This thread is in danger of turning into another discussion on religion.

Brian

 

[Kryst51]

This thread is in danger of turning into another discussion on religion.

Brian

So very true, I'll be happy to reply to any other questions about my posts in a new thread so this one stays on topic.

 

[Adam Caramon]

God grieves just as much over the lives of these poor people as you and I and most of the world does, that is why He is not leaving us in this sin, but provides a way out of it, and a hope for a better future.

I think religion is a fascinating subject, and people's beliefs are often varied. So, I've a few questions for you, and you can feel free to answer them or not. I'm not trying to catch you in an "ah ha!" moment or anything, and you do seem like a nice person, so hopefully you'll answer these.

1. Do you notice the correlation at all between God's provided way out (i.e. worship him), and the fact that throughout history this act has been tied to an organization (i.e. church)? As a lover of history, I've studied many relgions both before and after Christianity, and I've always thought this was an obvious point that even religious people would have to see.
2. Is your faith tied to any facts? In other words, is there anything that could be discovered that would seriously make you question your faith? If so, give an example, and if not, do you see any correlation between mind control/brainwashing and organized religion?
3. Being as there are many religions in the world, and thousands throughout history that are no longer around, do you believe that all of those religions were wrong, and yours is the correct one?
4. And lastly, before Christianity was discovered (or introduced), all of the humans alive did not have the opportunity to be Christians, as it did not exist. Since these people did not worship God, what happened to them afterlife wise?

 

[Kryst51]

I think religion is a fascinating subject, and people's beliefs are often varied. So, I've a few questions for you, and you can feel free to answer them or not. I'm not trying to catch you in an "ah ha!" moment or anything, and you do seem like a nice person, so hopefully you'll answer these.

1. Do you notice the correlation at all between God's provided way out (i.e. worship him), and the fact that throughout history this act has been tied to an organization (i.e. church)? As a lover of history, I've studied many relgions both before and after Christianity, and I've always thought this was an obvious point that even religious people would have to see.
2. Is your faith tied to any facts? In other words, is there anything that could be discovered that would seriously make you question your faith? If so, give an example, and if not, do you see any correlation between mind control/brainwashing and organized religion?
3. Being as there are many religions in the world, and thousands throughout history that are no longer around, do you believe that all of those religions were wrong, and yours is the correct one?
4. And lastly, before Christianity was discovered (or introduced), all of the humans alive did not have the opportunity to be Christians, as it did not exist. Since these people did not worship God, what happened to them afterlife wise?

I'll try to answer in a new thread, but it'll probably be after lunch time (it's 11:20 a.m. here, I go to lunch at noon)

Edit: Here is the new thread.

 

[laxster]

Lutheran, 24, USA. I oppose abortion unless the woman's life is at risk.

I believe in the unalienable rights to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. While I do believe needless abortion violates all three of those principles, it particularly violates the life one. I'm not coming at this with the old "when is it a life" angle, but rather the angle of what it means to have the right to life to begin with.

I think that if you truly believe in the right to Life, this also means you have the right to be born to experience that Life in the first place.

If a woman wants an abortion and you punish her by making her have the kid, what kind of quality of life is that kid going to have? Would you want to be the baby your mom was forced to have? I know I wouldn't.\\

I don't understand this argument. To me, it's the same as walking down a street and judging people based off of how their personal situations are. I'd hardly advocate death for someone who has had a rough life. Thankfully I don't see vans rolling down streets euthanizing people who have had difficult lives.

Additionally, we have a personal responsibility for our actions and must live with the consequences of all our actions.

 

[Brianwarnock]

Additionally, we have a personal responsibility for our actions and must live with the consequences of all our actions.

Including being raped.

Brian

 

[laxster]

In the case of ra** of an innocent person, does it mean the resulting baby is somehow "less" of a human and therefore doesn't deserve being brought up to be a part of society? Isn't labeling "ra**" as ok but "abortion-as-birth-control" just classism of what's right is not?

To me, life is life regardless of the "class".

 

[Alc]

In the case of ra** of an innocent person, does it mean the resulting baby is somehow "less" of a human and therefore doesn't deserve being brought up to be a part of society? Isn't labeling "ra**" as ok but "abortion-as-birth-control" just classism of what's right is not?

To me, life is life regardless of the "class".

The comment in red is provocative, at the very least.
Nobody in any post has suggested that ra** is 'ok' and suggesting otherwise is a rather pathetic attemp to skew Brian's point.

 

[laxster]

The comment in red is provocative, at the very least.
Nobody in any post has suggested that ra** is 'ok' and suggesting otherwise is a rather pathetic attemp to skew Brian's point.

I don't believe I did that. I guess you can go back and re-read. But there are folks who legitimatize ra** as a reason for abortion, but not when it was consensual.

I just don't understand how ra** can make a difference if a birth should occur or not.

 

[Alc]

I don't believe I did that. I guess you can go back and re-read. But there are folks who legitimatize ra** as a reason for abortion, but not when it was consensual.

I just don't understand how ra** can make a difference if a birth should occur or not.

You asked if labelling X as ok but Y as not okay was no more than classism of what's right and waht's wrong.
Quote:
"Isn't labeling "ra**" as ok but "abortion-as-birth-control" just classism of what's right is not?"
That suggests that someone at some point has labelled ra** as ok.
Are you now saying that nobody has?

If they haven't - and they definitely haven't - why bring it up?