Should Abortion be Allowed?

[chergh]

The individuals on this forum have no rights to tell you to do anything, unless you ask.

However, the government seems to have the right to tell people what to do with their bodies as there are whole sets of laws that do so (we covered this earlier in the thread). And government is supposedly run by the will of the people. So, potentially, people could have the laws changed so they can tell you not to have an abortion, not that you'll ever need one.

I think that may be a little short-sighted, though. I'd hate to see the back-alley abortion doctors start back up.

Just because the government can tell people what they may and may not do to their bodies doesn't mean they should tell people.

Looking back at the points regarding the government saying what you can and can't do to your body there's not much there. Taking drugs isn't illegal in the UK, the act of suicide isn't illegal either. Saying you can't smoke in certain areas isn't saying you can't smoke. The government really don't have many laws dictating what can be done with your body, unless you could provide some references to the laws, and not badly reported newspaper stories please.

 

[Rabbie]

As the orginator of this thread I would like to make a few points.

1. If abortion is made illegal then there will still be abortions carried out in dirty back street rooms with the woman running a high risk of death.

2. IMHO abortion is often a solution of last resort and may be the lesser of two evils. There are very few absolutes in our lives. We have to make compromises every day. I would normally never steal but if my wife and family were starving I would try to get them food even if I had to steal it.

3. You don't need religion to live a decent, moral life.

 

[georgedwilkinson]

Just because the government can tell people what they may and may not do to their bodies doesn't mean they should tell people.

I may agree with that statement (just a few limitations). The fact is, they can and do tell us what to do with our bodies.

The government really don't have many laws dictating what can be done with your body, unless you could provide some references to the laws, and not badly reported newspaper stories please.

You could have done this with a simple google search:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_views_of_suicide lists the history of governments telling us (along with the law names) that we couldn't commit suicide. I think the reason so many governments later banned their laws is that they are unenforceable. The laws are still on the books in some jurisdictions. BTW, even though suicide is not illegal in most jurisdictions in the US, there are still penalties associated with attempting to commit suicide (most "attempters" are committed or at least forced to undergo therapy).

For drug abuse, the laws are numerous in the US. Another wikipedia article states:

Use of these drugs may lead to criminal penalty in addition to possible physical, social, and psychological harm, both strongly depending on local jurisdiction.[2]

IMHO, the only reason smoking hasn't been totally outlawed in some communities is that the US has proven that prohibition doesn't work. But since most Americans spend most of their time in public places, it is almost the same as telling them they can't smoke. Many people go through the unpleasant withdrawal trying to quit smoking when these types of laws come to their jurisdiction.

Yes, the government can tell you what you can and cannot do with your body, whether they should or not. For instance, in China, you cannot lay down in front of a government tank (they didn't even have to write that into law). There are severe penalties for that.

 

[scott-atkinson]

As the orginator of this thread I would like to make a few points.

1. If abortion is made illegal then there will still be abortions carried out in dirty back street rooms with the woman running a high risk of death.

2. IMHO abortion is often a solution of last resort and may be the lesser of two evils. There are very few absolutes in our lives. We have to make compromises every day. I would normally never steal but if my wife and family were starving I would try to get them food even if I had to steal it.

3. You don't need religion to live a decent, moral life.

At last someone who talks sense..

 

[Brianwarnock]

It's alright, I don't mind his frustration with it.

If that statement wasn't aimed at me, then nevermind to this post

Originally posted by Brianwarnock:

It wasn't aimed at you, although you had started the bible quoting the thread had stayed polite and courteous, my frustration was with another poster who twisted words and who I thought, mistakenly as I now find on rereading his posts , had also quoted from the bible.

Please accept my apologies if I offended you.

Brian

 

[Kryst51]

It wasn't aimed at you, although you had started the bible quoting the thread had stayed polite and courteous, my frustration was with another poster who twisted words and who I thought, mistakenly as I now find on rereading his posts , had also quoted from the bible.

Please accept my apologies if I offended you.

Brian

None taken. Apology accepted.

 

[GaryPanic]

there are some bright sparks out there -

if we are saying that goverment should not tell us what to do with our bodies- therefore by default they have to legalise abortion... - they are not telling you to have one - but giving the individual the right to - if they were to make it illegal then they telling us what to do with our bodies

You will not get a clear black and white answer to this ...
event the church alllows abortion on certain grounds - so if you are a god squad person - then the church has its own gey area's (mainly where the life of the mother is in danger plus a few other exceptions)
so we need to a small degree ignore some of the church dotrine on this ...
also if you are a god squad person - the church can be wrong and has been in the past , you are meant to make your own mind up, not blindly follow some preachers rambling (the Pope)

and for those of us whom don't believe in the church version of god (or god full stop) then its a bit extreme to impose your beliefs on us .. thats going a bit too far -=- for those who aren't of a faith - we base our morals on views, science and gut feeling ..

I rant ..

 

[Kryst51]

there are some bright sparks out there -

if we are saying that goverment should not tell us what to do with our bodies- therefore by default they have to legalise abortion... - they are not telling you to have one - but giving the individual the right to - if they were to make it illegal then they telling us what to do with our bodies

You will not get a clear black and white answer to this ...
event the church alllows abortion on certain grounds - so if you are a god squad person - then the church has its own gey area's (mainly where the life of the mother is in danger plus a few other exceptions)
so we need to a small degree ignore some of the church dotrine on this ...
also if you are a god squad person - the church can be wrong and has been in the past , you are meant to make your own mind up, not blindly follow some preachers rambling (the Pope)

and for those of us whom don't believe in the church version of god (or god full stop) then its a bit extreme to impose your beliefs on us .. thats going a bit too far -=- for those who aren't of a faith - we base our morals on views, science and gut feeling ..

I rant ..

You speak of the church in very general terms, not all churches do, none of the one I have allow it, I have been members of the Baptist church or the Reformed Presbyterian church (PCA).

 

[GaryPanic]

You speak of the church in very general terms, not all churches do, none of the one I have allow it, I have been members of the Baptist church or the Reformed Presbyterian church (PCA).

It wasn't a personal dig - it was a genealisation - any offence given was not intentional - I have read your posts and they are presented openly and with grace, some of the other posts are bring in in God/church- founding fathers into this and they are not being as open as yourself on the subject -
they are walking around a church moral view - but not standing up for it - your post was open at the outset - and your point made (I don't agree with it - but I respect it )
I offer an apoligie if I have offended you,

Reglion in the UK is a subject that we usually don't discuss - as it usually ends in an arguement or a fight (our track recond on relgion isn't very good- so we try to accomodate every view)

 

[GaryPanic]

"You speak of the church in very general terms, not all churches do, none of the one I have allow it, I have been members of the Baptist church or the Reformed Presbyterian church (PCA"

If by carry the unborn child to full term the life of the mother is put into danger - then the RC church does allow abortion, as does Cof E

not being a member of either of the churches mentioned - I Lack the information to make that statement -but for RC and CofE this is correct,

aplogises for the over genrealisation ...-

 

[Adam Caramon]

Reglion in the UK is a subject that we usually don't discuss - as it usually ends in an arguement or a fight (our track recond on relgion isn't very good- so we try to accomodate every view)

That brings up a question of mine. I have heard from dubious sources that there is such a thing as a 'Jedi' religion in the UK, and apparently it is really big there. From what this source told me, UK is a lot more secular than the US is, so I was just curious if this Jedi religion is actually popular there and how it is viewed by the general public.

 

[Kryst51]

It wasn't a personal dig - it was a genealisation - any offence given was not intentional - I have read your posts and they are presented openly and with grace, some of the other posts are bring in in God/church- founding fathers into this and they are not being as open as yourself on the subject -
they are walking around a church moral view - but not standing up for it - your post was open at the outset - and your point made (I don't agree with it - but I respect it )
I offer an apoligie if I have offended you,

Reglion in the UK is a subject that we usually don't discuss - as it usually ends in an arguement or a fight (our track recond on relgion isn't very good- so we try to accomodate every view)

Oh, Gary, I am soooo not offended, if I were I wouldn't be participating in this conversation as I would be too mad (I loose my temper pretty easily, one of my biggest sins) to answer in a credible way... Religion is something that generally ends in arguments even here in the US. I once had an argument with my father when I switched from Baptist to PCA, where he told me that I was following after strange gods. Which, in Christian speak, was a huge blow/insult. He thinks differently now, but at the time we were screaming at each other.... And Baptist and PCA are both typical Christian denominations.

 

[GaryPanic]

if your happy and it works for you - great-
i have found that the church's don't relate to the common person - so I don't have much time for them - Imust admit that the Church of englands view on women vicars -is brillaint - and is a step in the right direction (for me anyway)

 

[GaryPanic]

That brings up a question of mine. I have heard from dubious sources that there is such a thing as a 'Jedi' religion in the UK, and apparently it is really big there. From what this source told me, UK is a lot more secular than the US is, so I was just curious if this Jedi religion is actually popular there and how it is viewed by the general public.

every 10 years we have a census - and if 10,000 are in a cult /religion,/ group they have to be registered as such - so its a joke on our census- to which about 20,000 signed up to - ..Goverement didn't like it -but what the hell -

 

[Kryst51]

"You speak of the church in very general terms, not all churches do, none of the one I have allow it, I have been members of the Baptist church or the Reformed Presbyterian church (PCA"

If by carry the unborn child to full term the life of the mother is put into danger - then the RC church does allow abortion, as does Cof E

not being a member of either of the churches mentioned - I Lack the information to make that statement -but for RC and CofE this is correct,

aplogises for the over genrealisation ...-

You know, I don't know much of anything about the church in Europe, sigh, there are so many things I want to study and so little time. Not only concerning the history of religion but access, php, html, more about American history, I'd like to study my geneology...etc.... Not to mention I so want more time to study my Bible.

 

[Rich]

I For instance, in China, you cannot lay down in front of a government tank (they didn't even have to write that into law). There are severe penalties for that.

And if you're a student in the US you can't take part in a peaceful protest in front of the National Guard either, sorry, what was your point again?

 

[Fifty2One]

Why can you not protest in front of the National Guard in the US?

And if you're a student in the US you can't take part in a peaceful protest in front of the National Guard either, sorry, what was your point again?

Well at least within the last 40 years?

 

[Rich]

That brings up a question of mine. I have heard from dubious sources that there is such a thing as a 'Jedi' religion in the UK, and apparently it is really big there. From what this source told me, UK is a lot more secular than the US is, so I was just curious if this Jedi religion is actually popular there and how it is viewed by the general public.

It was passed around on the internet that during the last census if enough people put down their religion as Jedi then the government had to accept it as a viable religion. I put down that it's my religion because I don't think it's any of the governments bloody business, or anyone elses for that matter, I also wanted to put "unknown" as my ethnicity but there wasn't an option for that so I ticked all the boxes

 

[Rich]

if your happy and it works for you - great-
i have found that the church's don't relate to the common person - so I don't have much time for them - Imust admit that the Church of englands view on women vicars -is brillaint - and is a step in the right direction (for me anyway)

And Catholicism which of course not just has a history of abuse against young boys but as an institution which tries not just to cover up the abuse but to protect the abusers too

 

[GaryPanic]

And Catholicism which of course not just has a history of abuse against young boys but as an institution which tries not just to cover up the abuse but to protect the abusers too

I'm with you all the way on this Rich - lets hang em....