Tarrifs

[moke123]

(Is the F150 still the best selling vehicle in the USA?)

The F series- F150, F250, F350

 

[RogerCooper]

@moke123 Can you explain why you choose to not understand the concept of reciprocity? In small words - If France puts tariffs on American wine, why is it wrong for America to put tariffs on French wine? There is no such thing as Free Trade. That would imply that there were no tariffs on any products for either side of an agreement. Free Trade sounds good on paper but in reality, the best we can hope for is Fair Trade where tariffs exist but are more reciprocal. They may tax our wine but instead of taxing their wine, we tax their flowers because their tax on our wine is not so high that it keeps the French from ever buying American wine and we feel that taxing their flowers is more beneficial to our budding flower industry.

If somebody punches themself in the face, there is no reason to reciprocate by punching yourself in the face.

Chinese companies are not going to eat the tariff increase because if they do so, they will lose money and go out of business. Similarly the importer will need to pass on the tariff to their customer and eventually to the end user.

Tariffs are an inefficient source of revenue. Biden's 100% tariff on Chinese EV's, brings in no revenue because it makes it unprofitable to import EV's from China, it simply raises prices to the consumer. There is a benefit to American producers of EV at the expense of consumers and producers of everything else (as consumers have less money to spend on everything else).

Before the 20th century, the Federal government was fairly small and could finance itself through tariffs (and excise taxes). Most spending was at the state and local level, financed by property taxes and excise taxes.

 

[Pat Hartman]

Chinese companies are not going to eat the tariff increase because if they do so, they will lose money and go out of business. Similarly the importer will need to pass on the tariff to their customer and eventually to the end user.

Ask the Biden administration why of all of Trump's policies, they chose to keep tariffs. You have chosen to not understand the concept or the fact that the tariffs didn't cause inflation. It was the flagrant money printing machine of the Biden/Harris administration that caused the runaway inflation.

Tariffs are an inefficient source of revenue. Biden's 100% tariff on Chinese EV's, brings in no revenue because it makes it unprofitable to import EV's from China, it simply raises prices to the consumer.

You are aware that China subsidizes industries where it wants to destroy competitors in America? Right? So, yes, Chinese EV's are very cheap but without tariffs, they would be sold to Americans at below cost in order to drive American car manufacturers out of business. Just as they drove the American drug and circuit companies out of business. The population of Detroit is approximately 30% of what it was in the heyday of American car manufacturing in the 50's. Our politicians sold out the middle class that had been built by the auto by allowing automakers to offshore their car factories. They use foreign workers to now build cars that are brought back into the US market for less than we can build them here but the process destroyed cities across the rust belt.

There is no reason for the US government to occupy such a huge portion of all jobs. Permanent jobs with huge benefit packages and no accountability has allowed bureaucrats to not watch the pennies or be held accountable for fraud thereby wasting billions of dollars every year. The DOE has not improved education in this country, in fact, Johnny can't read or do simple math in most big cities. Bureaucrats are lowering the standards so that they can graduate more failing students in a time when we need a far better educated workforce not a dumber one. Other bureaucrats are importing virtual slave labor from around the world. Why? No rational reason that I can fathom except that the formerly captive black slaves of the inner cities are wising up to the scam the Dems are running and are not reliably voting for Democrats any more so they need new, uneducated slaves who will continue to vote for "free" stuff to their own detriment.

 

[Pat Hartman]

You might take satisfaction in the fact that Germans are paying higher auto prices because of their tariff.

Yes, but they have a vibrant auto industry. We have destroyed ours.

 

[moke123]

Tariff Tracker: Tracking the Economic Impact of Tariffs

The Trump administration imposed nearly $80 billion worth of new taxes on Americans by levying tariffs on thousands of products in 2018 and 2019, amounting to one of the largest tax increases in decades. The Biden administration has kept most of the Trump administration tariffs in place

taxfoundation.org

• Before accounting for behavioral effects, the $79 billion in higher tariffs amounts to an average annual tax increase on US households of $625. Based on actual revenue collections data, trade war tariffs have directly increased tax collections by $200 to $300 annually per US household, on average. Both estimates understate the cost to US households because they do not factor in the lost output, lower incomes, and loss in consumer choice the tariffs have caused.
• Candidate Trump has proposed significant tariff hikes as part of his presidential campaign; we estimate that if imposed, his proposed tariff increases would hike taxes by another $524 billion annually and shrink GDP by at least 0.8 percent, the capital stock by 0.7 percent, and employment by 684,000 full-time equivalent jobs. Our estimates do not capture the effects of retaliation, nor the additional harms that would stem from starting a global trade war.
• Academic and governmental studies find the Trump-Biden tariffs have raised prices and reduced output and employment, producing a net negative impact on the US economy.

USITC Report Highlights Trade-Offs of Using Tariffs

The assessment of the tariffs former president Donald Trump imposed in 2018 and 2019 is clear: the policies have had a negative effect on American’s welfare.

taxfoundation.org

 

[moke123]

Yes, but they have a vibrant auto industry. We have destroyed ours.

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/09/06/once-the-envy-of-the-world-germanys-car-brands-are-weighing-heavily-on-its-struggling-economy.html

 

[RogerCooper]

Ask the Biden administration why of all of Trump's policies, they chose to keep tariffs. You have chosen to not understand the concept or the fact that the tariffs didn't cause inflation. It was the flagrant money printing machine of the Biden/Harris administration that caused the runaway inflation.

You are aware that China subsidizes industries where it wants to destroy competitors in America? Right? So, yes, Chinese EV's are very cheap but without tariffs, they would be sold to Americans at below cost in order to drive American car manufacturers out of business. Just as they drove the American drug and circuit companies out of business. The population of Detroit is approximately 30% of what it was in the heyday of American car manufacturing in the 50's. Our politicians sold out the middle class that had been built by the auto by allowing automakers to offshore their car factories. They use foreign workers to now build cars that are brought back into the US market for less than we can build them here but the process destroyed cities across the rust belt.

There is no reason for the US government to occupy such a huge portion of all jobs. Permanent jobs with huge benefit packages and no accountability has allowed bureaucrats to not watch the pennies or be held accountable for fraud thereby wasting billions of dollars every year. The DOE has not improved education in this country, in fact, Johnny can't read or do simple math in most big cities. Bureaucrats are lowering the standards so that they can graduate more failing students in a time when we need a far better educated workforce not a dumber one. Other bureaucrats are importing virtual slave labor from around the world. Why? No rational reason that I can fathom except that the formerly captive black slaves of the inner cities are wising up to the scam the Dems are running and are not reliably voting for Democrats any more so they need new, uneducated slaves who will continue to vote for "free" stuff to their own detriment.

The Biden administration should not have kept the tariffs. But now Trump and the socialist wing of the Republican party wants to move further to the left with taxes that raise prices but generate little revenue.

It is also worth mentioning the only the Congress can levy tariffs and Trump's duties on China were unconstitutional. The Supreme Court was too busy creating Presidential immunity to bother enforcing the actual written constitution.

Don't you mean the flagrant money printing machine of the Trump/Biden era. (figures in millions of dollars)

Budget Deficit by fiscal year

[td width="145px"]

2016-09-30​

[/td][td width="145px"]

-$584,650​

[/td]​

[td]

2017-09-30​

[/td][td]

-$665,450​

[/td]​

[td]

2018-09-30​

[/td][td]

-$779,074​

[/td]​

[td]

2019-09-30​

[/td][td]

-$983,588​

[/td]​

[td]

2020-09-30​

[/td][td]

-$3,132,456​

[/td]​

[td]

2021-09-30​

[/td][td]

-$2,775,350​

[/td]​

[td]

2022-09-30​

[/td][td]

-$1,375,920​

[/td]​

[td]

2023-09-30​

[/td][td]

-$1,693,725​

[/td]​

The reason for the increase in deficits was spending on COVID stimulus (and the debt it created), the retirement of the baby boom generation and the Trump tax cuts (which Harris has promised to mostly retain).

GM & Chrysler did go bankrupt but Ford and Toyota (the largest US carmaker) did not and they are all profitable now. Detroit contained obsolete factories with high labor costs, so production moved to areas of the US with cheaper land and labor. Overall US car production is down, but that is world-wide phenomenon caused by cars lasting longer.

It still not clear to me why American auto workers should be "protected" at the expense of American consumers and Americans who make everything other than cars. Or why the US should emulate the bad policies of the Chinese government of President Xi with economic stagnation and high unemployment there.

I am not sure what the stuff about bureaucrats has to do with tariffs, but most government employees are state & local not federal. And Trump and the Republicans in congress did not even try to abolish the Department of Education.

 

[Pat Hartman]

It still not clear to me why American auto workers should be "protected" at the expense of American consumers and Americans who make everything other than cars.

No one is protecting auto workers. The auto industry is actually necessary to national defence. Ask yourself if it would be possible to win wwIII if we had no steel or auto industry to convert to military vehicles.

And Trump and the Republicans in congress did not even try to abolish the Department of Education.

Trump was not prepared with the right people to install in various agencies when he took office. He is far better prepared today with people who agree that some agencies should be eliminated. His "people" kept telling him that he had no authority to fire people but didn't tell Trump he could just send them all to Nome. Not to disparage Nome which I'm sure is a lovely city, just not one that DC swamp creatures are likely to want to move to.

 

[Cotswold]

Yes, but they have a vibrant auto industry. We have destroyed ours.

Actually VW is to close at least two factories and lay off thousands. Other German car makers are also reducing production in Germany.
Germany as a country is anticipating recession. Only electric cars can be sold in the EU after 2035. The electric car looks like being their downfall. In the UK manufacturers not selling a high enough percentage of electric cars will be fined £15,000 per car by 2030. The deadlines and requirements have been snatched out of the air by politicians without the slightest understanding as to how it may be achieved. Or what the costs will be.

A huge oil refinery in Scotland is to close next year because the UK government has refused to allow it to use North Sea gas to power the plant.
2Kier Stalin's government is refusing to allow any more exploration in the North Sea. So we will import more oil and gas from amongst others, Norway also in the North Sea. It all makes perfect sense.
Presumably one side effect will force up the price of plastic which is in just about everything we buy. Inflation is on its way back to the UK.

 

[moke123]

rump was not prepared with the right people to install in various agencies when he took office. He is far better prepared today with people who agree that some agencies should be eliminated.

Yes, it's called Project 2025.

 

[RogerCooper]

No one is protecting auto workers. The auto industry is actually necessary to national defence. Ask yourself if it would be possible to win wwIII if we had no steel or auto industry to convert to military vehicles.

Trump was not prepared with the right people to install in various agencies when he took office. He is far better prepared today with people who agree that some agencies should be eliminated. His "people" kept telling him that he had no authority to fire people but didn't tell Trump he could just send them all to Nome. Not to disparage Nome which I'm sure is a lovely city, just not one that DC swamp creatures are likely to want to move to.

Military vehicles have little to due with automotive production. They are made by different companies. But it seems that you agree that tariffs lower the American standard of living.

Only the Congress, not the President can abolish the Department of Education. Understand the Congress not the President is the primary institution of our Republic. The Constitution requires that the President "faithfully execute the laws". He can't reassign everyone to Nome. But in 2017 & 2018 there was Republican presidents and Republican majority in both houses of Congress which could change laws.

The majority of the money spent by the Department of Education is spent on Pell Grants, which the Congress has been reluctant to abolish. Consider that University President is a popular job for former state governors.

 

[Pat Hartman]

But it seems that you agree that tariffs lower the American standard of living.

There is nothing the government does that raises my standard of living. The cost of cars, houses, and education especially have risen far more than the raise in inflation all because of government interference. Their goal is control. And it is the petty, useless, rules that increase the cost of products made in the US. That opens the door for cheap stuff from other countries. If those cheap imports threaten national security by destroying some types of manufacturing, then tariffs get applied.

I have a personal comparison regarding how the government has raised the cost of education. My granddaughter went to the same local college as my daughter did and also lived at home due to an easy commute. Thirty years ago I paid $1500 per semester for my daughter. The price for my granddaughter was $15,000 per semester. According to the inflation calculator, the cost should have been $6,300. When the government provides "free" money in the form of grants and loans, the colleges just raise their rates to suck up that money.

 

[Pat Hartman]

Yes, it's called Project 2025.

I read quite a lot of that document and although Trump claims his people didn't create it and it isn't his specific plan, I sure hope he adopts some of it.

What you don't seem to get is that Trump is essentially honest. One of the reasons he is universally hated by other politicians who change views depending on their audience. I'm sure there have been cases where due to national security he has lied to us but then every President does. What he doesn't do is recant and apologize when something he said enrages the media which enrages them more since they can't control what he says. He says what he means and he means what he says. So, if he says, the plan isn't his, I believe him. Why would he lie? Who cares if you are enraged by the ideas in the document? Trump doesn't care so he has no reason to lie. By perpetually bringing it up and attributing it to Trump, isn't it you who is the liar? You are presenting an untruth as truth. Liar!

 

[moke123]

What you don't seem to get is that Trump is essentially honest.

Essentially honest? As opposed to actually honest?

since they can't control what he says.

Either can he.

He says what he means and he means what he says.

So they're eating pets in Ohio? He's going to deport immigrants here legally to Venezuela?
Women should face some sort of punishment for having an abortion?

So, if he says, the plan isn't his, I believe him. Why would he lie?

I'm sure you do. Perhaps he's lying because it's a highly controversial plan and it hurts his campaign (to stay out of prison.)

 

[Pat Hartman]

So they're eating pets in Ohio?

I've seen the reports. They seem credible.

He's going to deport immigrants here legally to Venezuela?

You're going to have to find that quote. Every time I've heard him talk about deportation it is targeting people who are in the country illegally.

Women should face some sort of punishment for having an abortion?

I need the video tape. It sounds like something taken out of context like "Charlottesville"

Perhaps he's lying because it's a highly controversial plan and it hurts his campaign (to stay out of prison.)

Do you always assume the worst of everyone or is it just DJT? Only liberals hate what is in the 2025 plan. As I said, I hope he takes some of the suggestions and implements them. Undecided people are also unlikely to be turned off by the contents. It is only liberals who hate the plan.

Why does Kamala get away with a minimum of 25 actual, provable lies from the debate? Why did the moderators "fact check" Trump live and incorrectly because they were 100% wrong on all challenges and Kamala just spews lie after lie after lie with no challenges? Why did ABC give Kamala the questions ahead of time?

 

[moke123]

I've seen the reports. They seem credible.

I really hope you mean this report

Woman behind Springfield Haitian immigrants "eating pets" rumor speaks out

"It just exploded into something I didn't mean to happen," Erika Lee, a Springfield resident, told NBC News on Friday.

www.newsweek.com

You're going to have to find that quote.

It was like the front page of every paper yesterday

Donald Trump vows mass deportations from Ohio town rocked by 'pet-eating' lies

Trump says Springfield in Ohio has been "destroyed" and repeats baseless claim that migrants are eating pets.

www.bbc.com

I need the video tape. It sounds like something taken out of context like "Charlottesville"

 

[Isaac]

It is with a profound sense of bemusement that one contemplates the contemporary nation's proclivity for levying tariffs, a policy which might be more aptly described as an intricate ballet of economic obfuscation. This stratagem, ostensibly designed to safeguard domestic industries, oftentimes devolves into an exquisite tableau of bureaucratic convolution, wherein the mere mortals of commerce find themselves ensnared in a labyrinthine web of impenetrable trade barriers. The imposition of such pecuniary encumbrances serves, paradoxically, not as a bulwark against external market forces, but rather as a venerated exercise in economic solipsism, wherein the nation revels in its own parochial grandeur whilst ostensibly repudiating the siren call of globalization’s efficiencies. Indeed, one cannot help but marvel at the audacity with which this fiscal legerdemain is enacted, a testament to the artful, if somewhat Sisyphean, endeavor of preserving sovereignty at the expense of enlightened economic interdependence.

 

[RogerCooper]

There is nothing the government does that raises my standard of living. The cost of cars, houses, and education especially have risen far more than the raise in inflation all because of government interference. Their goal is control. And it is the petty, useless, rules that increase the cost of products made in the US. That opens the door for cheap stuff from other countries. If those cheap imports threaten national security by destroying some types of manufacturing, then tariffs get applied.

I have a personal comparison regarding how the government has raised the cost of education. My granddaughter went to the same local college as my daughter did and also lived at home due to an easy commute. Thirty years ago I paid $1500 per semester for my daughter. The price for my granddaughter was $15,000 per semester. According to the inflation calculator, the cost should have been $6,300. When the government provides "free" money in the form of grants and loans, the colleges just raise their rates to suck up that money.

College education is a good example of the harm done by well-intentioned government interventions. In effect that government has transferred money from taxpayers to college administrations.

Similarly, a tariff takes money from the general public and transfers it to a group of favored individuals, with the losses from the public exceeding the gains to the favored group. There is some benefit in the form of reducing the budget deficit, but tariffs are an inefficient way of raising revenue because of distortions tariffs create in the economy. A tariff is still a government policy that reduces our standard of living.

So why do you favor a tariff increase Pat? I don't think you take the national security justification seriously. If it was proposed by a Democrat would your view be different?

 

[Pat Hartman]

Personally, I would never have forwarded the pet eating report without an actual arrest and police report. As to the catching ducks and geese, there are probably municipal restrictions about killing wildlife but hunters do it all the time during duck season. This would be a case of something natural that turned out to violate local statutes which the Haitians didn't understand and so wouldn't be outrageous at all.

I would like to see the host who is badgering Trump about why he is pro-life badger Harris for supporting murder in the delivery room. Trump's position on abortion is moderate and pretty close to the original Roe v Wade ruling. The problem with Roe V Wade is that it had been so weakened over the 50 years that it was essentially abortion on demand. That was why it had to go. Having the states decide individually won't eliminate abortion. It will be freely available in the blue states and more restricted in the red states but still legal. Women who have been raped generally are aware that it happened or they are aware that they lost consciousness in a dangerous situation. Therefore, they don't need to wait 2 months to miss a second period to confirm the pregnancy. They can go the next day to a doctor or the hospital and get a morning after pill. If they can't get one in their home state, then they may need to go further. Same for incest. If you are having sex with your father, you usually know it.

 

[RogerCooper]

Personally, I would never have forwarded the pet eating report without an actual arrest and police report. As to the catching ducks and geese, there are probably municipal restrictions about killing wildlife but hunters do it all the time during duck season. This would be a case of something natural that turned out to violate local statutes which the Haitians didn't understand and so wouldn't be outrageous at all.

I would like to see the host who is badgering Trump about why he is pro-life badger Harris for supporting murder in the delivery room. Trump's position on abortion is moderate and pretty close to the original Roe v Wade ruling. The problem with Roe V Wade is that it had been so weakened over the 50 years that it was essentially abortion on demand. That was why it had to go. Having the states decide individually won't eliminate abortion. It will be freely available in the blue states and more restricted in the red states but still legal. Women who have been raped generally are aware that it happened or they are aware that they lost consciousness in a dangerous situation. Therefore, they don't need to wait 2 months to miss a second period to confirm the pregnancy. They can go the next day to a doctor or the hospital and get a morning after pill. If they can't get one in their home state, then they may need to go further. Same for incest. If you are having sex with your father, you usually know it.

Pat, your "moderate" position is rather strange. If abortion is murder, why would the circumstances and timing of the pregnancy matter. If it is not murder, than anti-abortion laws are outrageous interference in an intimate personal decision. So which is it? And why do you trust the government to make this decision for people when you rightly don't trust the government to make other decisions for people?

I don't think you should surprised to learn that there have been prosecutions of women who miscarried. My wife had 5 miscarriages, which fortunately did not result any police investigations.