The Lunatics are Now in Charge of the Asylum

[Space Cowboy]

All roads lead to Trump even a thread about UK politics, who knew?

He is so far ahead of the game it is unreal.

 

[ColinEssex]

Why are Americans so disturbed about Trump and Biden? Those are the two chosen candidates out of 300 million. Just put up with it and see what happens. It's so so boring, you wouldn't think there was anything else to say, it's all been said and argued about.
For Christ's sake don't you yanks have anything else to talk about on a British forum?
Col

 

[AccessBlaster]

Why are Americans so disturbed about Trump and Biden? Those are the two chosen candidates out of 300 million. Just put up with it and see what happens. It's so so boring, you wouldn't think there was anything else to say, it's all been said and argued about.
For Christ's sake don't you yanks have anything else to talk about on a British forum?
Col

You have yet to tell us your preference for PM?

 

[Steve R.]

Probably the reason trump is revoking abortion and contraception rights, he wants White ethnicity population growth for the reasons you have identified.

• Trump is not revoking abortion and contraception rights. Through the US Supreme Court, those rights have been returned to the states.
• The real racists are those soliciting to bring in those from S. America, C. America, and Africa. This is Obama's "transformation" of the US. As proof, Democrats have long pushed the Orwellian phrase "The demographics are with us". This has been the Democratic party plan for years now.

 

[ColinEssex]

You have yet to tell us your preference for PM?

I'll be honest, I think they are all much of a muchness which is why I didn't vote. I honestly have no preference. I wish our new Prime Minister good luck, there's alot to sort out, I hope he succeeds.
Col

 

[conception_native_0123]

what's the difference between the labourers, republicans and democrats? we don't have labourers in the USA, do we?

 

[conception_native_0123]

For Christ's sake don't you yanks have anything else to talk about on a British forum?

there's always the things you say, but that's too boring for me.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

A consequence of prosperity is lower birth rates, the West is breeding itself out of existence, basically self-terminating.

Which might be why there is such a furor over abortion, the "morning after" pills, and contraception.

For Christ's sake don't you yanks have anything else to talk about on a British forum?

Col, with you around as a perpetual gadfly, how could we EVER lack for something to talk about?

 

[The_Doc_Man]

what's the difference between the labourers, republicans and democrats? we don't have labourers in the USA, do we?

Since the Progressive Liberals have essentially swallowed all other flavors of Democrat, we don't have a separate group for that. It would severely dilute the power of the current Democratic party to have a schism between the progressive and labor branches.

 

[Cotswold]

........which is why I didn't vote.......

I cannot actually criticise because it was your choice and not my business but why not vote when you have the chance?

I cannot understand people involved in politics or an organisation existing to help, or support others, who abstains on an issue.
Why be involved and abstain? It is so pointless and an insult to everyone else.

 

[GaP42]

I cannot actually criticise because it was your choice and not my business but why not vote when you have the chance?

I cannot understand people involved in politics or an organisation existing to help, or support others, who abstains on an issue.
Why be involved and abstain? It is so pointless and an insult to everyone else.

I agree. I think it should go further - you should be required to vote. Laziness or indifference are enemies of the democracy. While voting might be compulsory - you can, in the privacy of the act of voting, choose to not select or foul the ballot paper. The incentive to stay put and not get up and make an effort unlike others, is not conducive to participation in the democratic process, then to moan about who/ what happened is a ridiculous position to take. Everyone (citizens - including those who do not pay taxes) should have a right to vote, and everyone has a responsibility to vote.

BTW my origins are the Cotswolds.. long ago

 

[Jon]

I agree. I think it should go further - you should be required to vote. Laziness or indifference are enemies of the democracy. While voting might be compulsory - you can, in the privacy of the act of voting, choose to not select or foul the ballot paper. The incentive to stay put and not get up and make an effort unlike others, is not conducive to participation in the democratic process, then to moan about who/ what happened is a ridiculous position to take. Everyone (citizens - including those who do not pay taxes) should have a right to vote, and everyone has a responsibility to vote.

What if your vote doesn't make a blind bit of difference? The illusion that your vote will impact the national election is just that, an illusion. There is no record of anyone's individual vote affecting the outcome of which leader gets in power when it comes to national elections, in any country ever! So, given the futility of the individuals decision to vote, it is not a ridiculous position to moan about who gets in power, since you never had any reasonable say in it anyway. Forcing people to do futile things is more like a communist government, but of course I believe in the democratic system of voting.

Should we force people to do the lottery too? The odds of a win are better.

People moan about the weather but never vote about that, do we?

Just some food for thought...

 

[GaP42]

What if your vote doesn't make a blind bit of difference? The illusion that your vote will impact the national election is just that, an illusion.

However that would mean everyone can take the same attitude and no-one votes. One vote would matter in the extreme circumstance. Collectively we all contribute to the outcome. And you cannot expect your vote to be the one that "makes the difference" and results in the election of someone by casting it. That does not give an excuse for not participating in my view.
You may feel overwhelmed - not represented, or in the majority so that your particular vote is not going to play a role. But on any given day, with the vagaries of current events, populism/ personality/ policy the polls don't always get it right. Also changes in the proportion of numbers distributed amongst the candidates can give the elected and unelected a moment of thought about why the change, and potentially affect future policy.

Lotteries, weather... not really comparable are they? Death and taxes on the other hand - no choice it seems.

 

[Jon]

However that would mean everyone can take the same attitude and no-one votes.

If no one votes then I would vote because then my vote would have some weight. How about addressing the maths behind it? Then your conclusion will be the same as mine. I'm talking the reality of your individual vote, you are talking imaginary and about all votes combined. If your argument is sound, why do you feel the need to exaggerate into extreme hypotheticals?

One vote would matter in the extreme circumstance.

Correct. And I am glad that you recognise it would only be in extreme circumstances. And because it is extreme, that is why it has never happened.

And you cannot expect your vote to be the one that "makes the difference" and results in the election of someone by casting it.

I agree. And that is why your vote is statistically futile.

That does not give an excuse for not participating in my view.

So you believe you need to be compelled to participate in a statistically futile process?

Lotteries, weather... not really comparable are they? Death and taxes on the other hand - no choice it seems.

The principles are analogous, so why are they not comparable? You have given no reason. But death and taxes seem irrelevant.

If everybody votes, it is not without cost. Consider the resource usage, burning up the limited supply of fossil fuels, contributing to pollution. Consider the time used up, which could go towards productivity. Add in the accidents that happen while people go to vote. Forcing everyone to vote has its costs.

I don't like what Russia did by invading Ukraine. But I did not vote in anything to do with it. Does that preclude me from moaning about it?

 

[Lightwave]

I think its a logical position not to vote if you don't understand what you are voting on..

Lets say there are four engineers discussing a bridge and they can't decide on a particularly crucial part of the design. 2 each way. They aren't going to get the secretary in to cast a deciding vote more likely they will go out looking for someone with better knowledge. I actually think we should have super majoritys in a lot of voting processes. If a significant majority can't decide which is right option maybe the decision should be made when the evidence is clearer.

 

[Jon]

There are many reasons not to vote. If the cost to vote exceeds the expected benefit, then going to vote is a loss for you. Let me give an example. My father had a fall a week ago. He is 89 and his back is really bad. In an ideal world, he would love to go to vote. But, the risks of him having another fall while eaving the house, despite using a zimmer, are high. So, he stayed at home.

Instead, I offered to use my own vote for him, which would have otherwise not been used. I knew it was futile, but I did it for reasons of making my father happy. It was a vote by proxy for him. He said, "Let's keep the communists out!" I went to vote to keep them out. They got in. Futile.

So there can be many reasons for people to vote, and not to vote.

 

[GaP42]

If no one votes then I would vote because then my vote would have some weight.

But you don't know ahead of the outcome. You look out the window and see no one is going to the polling booth? You vote, but then there were the postal votes you forgot about? You vote - and yours wins - by two votes - did you make a difference? May as well have stayed at home. Never again because the result is pre-ordained. Where there any cases where the difference was less than 100 votes. We have had some.

In some small states (thinking pacific islands) every votes "counts", any vote may tip the balance. You may be talking about your current political state. First past the post, non-compulsory voting. It still holds that potentially one vote could make a difference - and you are in no position to know the outcome ahead of time .. except past history. Irrespective, your dismal position is like deciding to never get out of bed because whatever you do will not make a difference.

So to me the question of whether to vote or not is not a mathematical one. You make a statement of support (on the balance of policy/character etc). As I also pointed out - even with compulsory voting the choice is still available to not mark the ballot paper.

I also explained that changes in support for a candidate can raise their "interest" in why the change is happening - so perhaps even votes for losing candidates is not always futile.

Lotteries, if you do not purchase a ticket, do not affect the likelihood of an outcome for anyone else, unlike an election.
Weather happens and is not affected by your non participation, whereas an election can be affected.
I think that means they are not good analogies. Just like Death and Taxes (that were given in a light-hearted fashion).. altho taxes might be tweaked by who gets elected.

Are you off to your dismal bed yet?

 

[GaP42]

There are many reasons not to vote. If the cost to vote exceeds the expected benefit, then going to vote is a loss for you. Let me give an example. My father had a fall a week ago. He is 89 and his back is really bad. In an ideal world, he would love to go to vote. But, the risks of him having another fall while eaving the house, despite using a zimmer, are high. So, he stayed at home.

Instead, I offered to use my own vote for him, which would have otherwise not been used. I knew it was futile, but I did it for reasons of making my father happy. It was a vote by proxy for him. He said, "Let's keep the communists out!" I went to vote to keep them out. They got in. Futile.

So there can be many reasons for people to vote, and not to vote.

There are proscribed reasons to be excused from compulsory voting, and there are legal means to vote when not able to attend a polling booth.
There are fines for those who do not provide an acceptable reason - as defined, and fines for those who try to vote on behalf of someone else.
Your electorate voted Labour - those dirty communists!? Did you not vote because of this? With that attitude amongst conservative voters it is no wonder they lost soooo many seats. Don't vote, don't complain, election held, don't vote, don't complain, repeat, ad infinitum
Better look under the bed!

 

[Jon]

But you don't know ahead of the outcome. You look out the window and see no one is going to the polling booth? You vote, but then there were the postal votes you forgot about? You vote - and yours wins - by two votes - did you make a difference? May as well have stayed at home. Never again because the result is pre-ordained. Where there any cases where the difference was less than 100 votes. We have had some.

In some small states (thinking pacific islands) every votes "counts", any vote may tip the balance. You may be talking about your current political state. First past the post, non-compulsory voting. It still holds that potentially one vote could make a difference - and you are in no position to know the outcome ahead of time .. except past history. Irrespective your dismal position is like deciding to never get out of bed because whatever you do will not make a difference?

So to me the question of whether to vote or not is not a mathematical one. You make a statement of support (on the balance of policy/character etc). As I also pointed out - even with compulsory voting the choice is still available to not mark the ballot paper.


I think that means they are not good analogies. Just like Death and Taxes (that were given in a light-hearted fashion).. altho taxes might be tweaked by who gets elected.

Are you off to your dismal bed yet?

I do not wish to be rude or anything, but what you said above is riddled with logical flaws!

The decision for an individual not to vote is nothing to do with laziness, belief in a pre-ordained result, small states, wanting to stay in bed or anything like that. What you said there is just noise trying to deflect from mathematical reality. It is the simple truth that your vote is statistically futile. If you think it isn't, please tell me which national elections in the last 100 years in any country in the world were decided by a single vote? And you can't, because there were none. Reality is on my side, wishful thinking is on yours.

I also explained that changes in support for a candidate can raise their "interest" in why the change is happening - so perhaps even votes for losing candidates is not always futile.

I have partial sympathy for this position, but again, your vote is lost in a sea of numbers. If 14,254 people voted for candidate A, then 14,255 would make no perceptual difference. If the numbers were much smaller, like 3 people voted for candidate A, then 4 is a significant increase. With these low numbers, I would be voting.

Lotteries, if you do not purchase a ticket, do not affect the likelihood of an outcome for anyone else, unlike an election.

False. You alter the odds of someone else winning, just like with an election. But you are muddling up the principle behind my analogy.

Weather happens and is not affected by your non participation, whereas an election can be affected.

A butterfly can flap its wings in Tokyo and cause a hurricane in America. It is called the Butterfly Effect. But without getting too silly about this, weather happens and so do election results, with your vote being statistically futile. It amounts to the same thing.

And if we want to be pedantic about this, since weather is based on a continuum and voting is binary, whatever you do will affect the weather, however small. Yet whatever you do regarding casting your vote, is statistically unlikely to do anything. Or in other words, you got your weather statement understanding back-to-front.

And remember, word salads do not equate to mathematical reality.

 

[Jon]

There are proscribed reasons to be excused from compulsory voting, and there are legal means to vote when not able to attend a polling booth.
There are fines for those who do not provide an acceptable reason - as defined, and fines for those who try to vote on behalf of someone else.
Your electorate voted Labour - those dirty communists!? Did you not vote because of this? With that attitude amongst conservative voters it is no wonder they lost soooo many seats. Don't vote, don't complain, election held, don't vote, don't complain, repeat, ad infinitum
Better look under the bed!

There are reasons why compulsory voting is rare. Most countries don't force their citizens to do it. Are you looking to enact 1984?

And you forgot, I did vote. Kinda puts to bed your laziness argument.