This will oust the corruption of transgender (1 Viewer)

Unfortunately, I have to agree here. ("Unfortunate" because the situation benefits no one but is obviously part of someone's cause celebre.) My gay friends and gay step-daughter (whom I love as if she were my own) KNOW that you can't "groom" a person to become gay. It is either the way they are or it is not. Taking advantage of confusion is a way to milk money from a system because of course "something must be done" and WHEN have you ever heard that phrase from the government where money WASN'T involved?
If people can't change their orientation then you're going to have trouble explaining not only prison, but the numerous experiences from my own personal life which doubtless are repeated in many other lives. But I can only speak for mine that I put in my other post. And of course, you'll have trouble explaining the latest variations of the theme that have arisen over the past year or two where quite a few people have gone back and forth numerous times including Miley. Cyrus.

You most definitely can influence people to ultimately identify as gay, otherwise it wouldn't be true that people like me have a family tree spanning 100 people with zero occurrences and the Hollywood parents are at about 30%.

Interesting, it's one of the most powerful pieces of evidence there is that influence and exposure. Most definitely makes an impact and it's right in front of our eyes, and furthermore, it's the one thing I've noticed when I post. There is never a response to. It's hard to contradict the obvious.
 
Sorry, but your "100% with zero occurrences" is INSTANTLY flawed unless you can also state CATEGORICALLY that all of them were not closeted gays. In a strongly religious family, the probability of gays being forced into a closet by closed-minded authoritarian family patriarchs is pretty high. Therefore, your statement has ZERO evidentiary value.

Miley Cyrus goes back and forth because of a key word to remember when you talk about entertainers and Hollywood families... notoriety. Celebrities' agents will all tell you the same thing - in Hollywood, ALL publicity is GOOD publicity. In politics the same is true. Louisiana's (now deceased) former governor Edwin W Edwards was once quoted as saying that there were only two ways he could lose an election - if he were found in bed with a live boy or a dead horse. (He served four terms, two eight-year stretches with a four-year term in between.)

You also misunderstand or have miscast the issue of changing orientation vs. changing public behavior. What happens in prison is a sign of dominance and is common not only in prison but among dog and certain other species.
It's hard to contradict the obvious.

Particularly when the obviousness of something is the result of indoctrination.
 
What a statesman John Kennedy is! Here he gently and expertly demolishes the wrong thinking, wrong footing, reasoning that allows men to swim in female competitions....


 
Sorry, but your "100% with zero occurrences" is INSTANTLY flawed unless you can also state CATEGORICALLY that all of them were not closeted gays. In a strongly religious family, the probability of gays being forced into a closet by closed-minded authoritarian family patriarchs is pretty high. Therefore, your statement has ZERO evidentiary value.
That's just silliness, Doc, and you know it. Ok, it's possible that there might be a tiny % of "secretly gay" people in my family tree going through a massively convincing act of being totally happy as a heterosexual married couple with kids, but if that's what you have to rely on to explain-away that math, I think you've landed way over in the category of disingenuous assertions that surely you yourself don't even believe.

In fact, in the miniscule chance that your explanation is the reason why, that drives your arguments even further from strength, as it means that people who are truly gay, in your definition, can actually live happy, married, heterosexual lives. Which I thought according to you, no such thing was possible, and any attempt to encourage them to do so would be some horrible, reprehensible, doomed-to-sadness life sentence of misery?? I guess not then?

And what about these people's suffering?

Does it not matter?
 
What happens in prison is a sign of dominance
Understood. Meaning, you have no idea or explanation.

I'm pretty sure men aren't willingly engaging in gay sex and climaxing all as an elaborate show of "dominance".
I can promise you that no matter how desperately I wanted to dominate someone, I couldn't climax with a man under any circumstances, unless significant time and strong circumstances intervened - like prison, with no possibility of normal sex.

Yes, it's a sign of dominance, but obviously people don't go around having sex with a gender they have zero attraction to just to dominate people.

The reality cannot be denied: People in prison have discovered their orientation is, in fact, quite malleable, under powerful circumstances which deny them sexual fulfillment of their original 'type'.

This post has just become much more interesting to me. I've never yet heard anyone give any explanation for the prison scenario, and glad to see they haven't "invented" any new terms this year to explain it all away. They probably will soon though..

I'd love for you to meet the multiple men I know who were completely straight and married who ended up having (and enjoying, not as a "sign of dominance" or any other theatrical performance) gay sex in the end after spending an extended period of time and influence transitioning from the gentle circles of society to drugs, as I've known several of them. But given how blind you are to evidence, I suppose that if you did meet them, you would just flat out not believe what they are telling you - and would probably tell them that you know more about their original sexual orientation than they do!
Another common liberal groupthink problem - telling people about themselves. They're doing it a lot right now to de-transitioning TG people who give warnings. "You're just in denial, trust us!" , they say. "You're just a self-loathing gay" or a "self-loathing TG", etc. etc. etc. Totally silly.
 
@The_Doc_Man

Why is it illegal for someone to expose their genitals to a kid on a playground, but perfectly legal to do it as long as you're standing in a Pride Parade with kids in the audience?

Gay privilege I guess? The "love" makes it better? Civil Rights? Can we think of anything that doesn't sound totally and completely dumb?
 
Isaac, I've given YOU evidence that YOU refuse to contemplate, that you dismiss, that you claim to be incorrect. Why should I waste my time on a person whose mind is so closed as to be totally BLIND to the pain that your viewpoint causes.

OK, in a parade in New Orleans, if you expose yourself, the cops will arrest you if they see you. But things do get crazy in our area and our cops are understaffed at the moment. Public indecency laws DO exist and ARE enforced here. I can't speak to gay pride parades in other venues. Exposing yourself in a playground full of kids will ALSO get you arrested. We are gay-friendly here, but not STUPID-gay-friendly.

Understood. Meaning, you have no idea or explanation.

Equally, I can say "You have no idea or explanation" whenever you say "God works in mysterious ways" or "We are not meant to know God's will."

as it means that people who are truly gay, in your definition, can actually live happy, married, heterosexual lives.

Don't be DAFT, man. Studies have shown otherwise.

This article talks about the idea of loss among closeted men and the internal conflicts of what they would lose in order to come out.


This next article deals with the stresses brought on by society for closeted men who have been living a lie.


This one from the Yale school of Medicine talks about stress factors on closeted gays.


For every gay man living a "happy, heterosexual" life you will find more who are totally miserable.

Here is a case-study.


All of these studies didn't come out of a vacuum. They came into existence because there IS a problem. But you can't see the truth of it.
 
Face the simple facts:

Your theory to explain-away my simple family tree example doesn't pass common sense muster. Nobody really thinks that the explanation is that there must be dozens of secretly gay people who by all outward appearances are relatively happy, enjoying heterosexual life, but secretly completely gay, and only gay. We both know full well that if you are straight, you wouldn't live with another man and have fully complete sexual relations with that man for decades and actually be relatively happy in the meantime - AND if you COULD, it would completely destroy the argument that sexual orientation isn't somewhat malleable and that people can and should be able to choose to manipulate or alter it if they so choose, or if they wish to live up to their own value system (in either direction).

There are only 2 options for my family tree argument:

1) it's very compelling, and means that "being gay" actually IS much more or less frequent, depending on upbringing, not just born biology
or
2) your theory - which is incredibly, almost unmeasurably, improbable, and assumes the existence of dozens of secretly gay people in my family tree, living outwardly happy heterosexual lives and being the best actors ever known, AND having "endured" years of sexual relations so enjoyable and complete that they produced pregnancies and babies, and didn't even produce so much as a divorce.

A man of science most definitely would not jump on the most improbable theory possible. If you really think that's the most likely explanation, you should buy a lottery ticket, and you're a man of much bigger faith than I! And this is why I think you're at least as indoctrinated as I am.

The obvious explanation is that "being gay" is NOT purely genetic, but very much also a product of environment and upbringing, which can also tap into certain predispositions, which almost everyone acknowledges those predispositions can exist.

PS - it's not just me, it's the other 100 million Americans like me who also have similar family trees, and have compared the rather obvious truth they are staring in the face with the gay theory "it's just born biology, man", and clearly seen the latter to be false from experience. These 40-60% of the population will never change their mind as long as the reality they are looking at contradicts it completely. And changing this reality is likely one of the longer term motivations behind why the activists leading the sexual revolution are trying SO HARD to manipulate the minds of other peoples' kids ... they NEED that reality to BE changed, else there is a segment of the population who, armed with reality, will never change their minds (and shouldn't).

Truthfully, it's the conservatives who are more open minded on this issue.

Your theory: Well, it happened in my family, thus, it can and will happen in ANY family (assuming everyone has an equal chance of turning out the same, just because their family did)

My theory: Well, abc happens a lot in those families, but does not happen hardly at all in these families. Thus, there is a difference in outcome based on the circumstance

I'd say the latter is a much more reasoned conclusion.
 
For every gay man living a "happy, heterosexual" life you will find more who are totally miserable.
That statement can be true, and still fails to explain my family tree, doesn't even come close.
Any reasonable person, totally objective, would acknowledge that upbringing played a huge part in the whole deal - and probably meant that some people in the family tree who might have had a predisposition to ultimately have homosexual relations, were steered by upbringing, and ended up perfectly fine. Debunking the narrative that there is zero place in society to steer people in any direction.

There are many reasons it is in society's best interest to make reasonable attempts to steer children toward enjoying a normal heterosexual life.
The obvious natural fit of anatomy reminds us how mankind reproduces, how families are made and feel most together, we know genders compliment each other; every married person understands that a man and a woman need each other in ways feminism and misandry have attempted to dispel but have barely scratched the surface - all of these things are true, and the vast majority of heterosexual married people know that they are true. They also just so happen to coincide with God's design, and nature's obvious still-in-force workings of the male and female body.

There is also the subject of promiscuity and HIV, which despite the modern narrative which has attempted to skew this reality, homosexuality absolutely WAS one of the drivers of the expansion of aids, because the gay community tends to be more "anonymous/free/random sex" minded than the heterosexual community, whether you want to admit that or not.

Women have special qualities that children need; men have special qualities that children need from fathers, the disruption of this system has had very clear consequences - and painful ones for many.

All of this remains true, and can still be true, even though we realize that biology does play some part. If I can concede that, but you can't concede the obvious family tree outcome that upbringing plays a part, I don't know what else to say.

PS - very few legitimate studies on 'conversion' really exist, because the ethics code of the study-ers actually prescribes that activity being studied. Therefore all studies are skewed on this topic. Compassionate, responsible counseling for conversion had barely begun when many jurisdictions, and almost all mental health professional associations, prohibited it - in all forms, even such that would render data and information.
All you are left with is a resentful population, on whom conversion obviously was hurtful and/or unsuccessful, to study. That's no study at all, that's just a b** session.

We both know that successful conversions will never be studied, because nobody is going to go volunteer the information that "I've struggled with homosexual leanings for years, but I finally got the help I needed and now am happy in my heterosexual marriage". It's not something people publicize, but if you are someone like me who grew up in churches across the US, it's very much a thing. Largely unspoken and definitely undocumented, for obvious reasons. I can understand why people who didn't grow up and remain in church settings simply don't know about it. But I am telling you, so now you know.
 
Your family tree statement is anecdotal and not subject to rigorous testing. But I will leave it alone since I can't do the testing either.

Your comment about "legitimate studies on conversion" is wrong, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. The studies HAVE been done, which is why this statement was issued:


The article lists several references that include formal studies.



https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35893729 - this is an article from the World Psychiatric Association about conversion issues.

@Isaac - you CANNOT see the harm you do by promulgating this false narrative - that (a) there is a way to "cure" gays and (b) that there was ever something to be cured in the first place. THIS IS HARMFUL TO GAYS because it spreads false beliefs and thus false and unrealistic expectations to society as a whole.

Let me change the question in order to illustrate the point. It is a "walk a mile in your shoes" question. This is hypothetical and rhetorical, not an actual suggestion but,...

Perhaps we should institute a program to cure Christians, to remove their false beliefs and counteract their erroneous activities.

How would YOU feel if that became a "thing" in society as a whole? How would it make YOU feel - because now it is YOUR ox being gored?
 
I have done a lot of reading on both sides of the opinion-spectrum about conversion, Richard, and I have concluded the evidence is pretty strong that there isn't much legit evidence, because of what I stated, or tried to: Partly because there is almost nobody to test on, given that the only people usually included in the study population are disgruntled people where it obviously didn't have any positive effect.........and partly because the very activity the study really ought to be studying is prohibited by the ethics code of the people who might study it, thereby making it one of those areas similar to illegal drugs. There is a vast area of unstudied "stuff" (questions, specifics, ) with regard to things like drugs because of the difficulty in figuring out a way to conduct an ethical study. Yes, there are many studies on drugs that you can find, and there are a small bit which have found ways to address subjects who were literally administered the drug in question - but relatively VERY few compared to other subjects of such great importance, because of the obvious difficulties in setting up a study based on an illegal activity. For example, there are a million potential questions one might have about being high on methamphetamine, but you're liable to research it and find the available information GREATLY wanting, for obvious reasons. Occasionally you'll find just a tiny bit of research where someone administered Desoxin, or someone did it in another country with more lax rules regarding such things, or someone used a subject population based on their past experiences as testified, etc. etc. Certainly far, far less than anyone in the scientific social community wants - but necessarily limited for the reasons I've just described.

I believe the fair view of conversion acknowledges that is the case. As I said, compassionate and responsible conversion was barely beginning when it was totally and completely prohibited in the majority of all social disciplines, so it is impossible to say that the issue has been completely and comprehensively studied.

All we know for sure is that at various points in the past, rather harsh and terrible methods have been used, with seemingly little effect other than to result in people's degradation and abuse. We really have no idea what would happen if widespread counseling was accepted with certain guidelines and also with people conducting studies who could really be described as objective, without an agenda going in either direction.

I firmly stand by my personal experience that has witnessed this type of counseling happening on a very undocumented, informal (read: unstudied) way, and it helping a lot of people who you simply will never know about, and therefore can't definitively speak to.

What would it take for you to believe my family tree? If I privately interviewed every one of them, and if I reported to you that I had 100% private participation, and if every one of the seemingly straight people swore that they were quite happy in their life - would you believe it then? Would you then present to me another theory or explanation even in the face of that? I'm not saying I can actually get that done of course, I'm just suggesting that it may be healthy for you to ask yourself that question. Whatever the answer is, the exercise of truly asking your soul whether you would believe me whatever the result was, or more importantly -- whether you would believe THEM - their OWN REPORT about THEMSELVES - or whether you would then pivot to one of the "they're just in denial or self-loathing" arguments, would be a healthy intellectual exercise.
 
How would YOU feel if that became a "thing" in society as a whole? How would it make YOU feel - because now it is YOUR ox being gored?

Oh my god, I'm so glad you asked that question. I think if you ponder that for a while you may step back from it, if not publicly, privately mentally.

Richard, there ARE a hundred, thousand, million ways in which that DOES exist. And I have never asked my societal brothers to legally outlaw any of them!

Have you never heard of religions proselytizing people - as I myself do? Do you not think that Muslim mosques are quite happy to try to convert a Christian? Do you not think that Jewish rabbi's, if approached, will gladly talk to a Christian and try to persuade them away from their faith?

Have you not heard of Universities, the vast majority - almost 100% - of them which actively seek to undermine (and not indirectly - in plain terms!), Christian college students to question their beliefs?

Has a Jehovah's Witness or Mormon 'missionary' never knocked on your door?

Our society is FULL of groups, people, programs, and institutions which actively work to dissuade people from either becoming or remaining Christians in their faith and worldview.

How does it make me feel? Well I think now that I've eliminated the argument that it doesn't exist, that's a moot question. And probably too complex to answer in a brief back and forth like this.

I mean, I'm fine with it, that's the way things are. We ALL have ways of trying to persuade other people of our beliefs. You're doing it right now, as am I.

Every church in the world preaches every sunday to actively try to persuade people their way of thinking - which means trying to "change" them from their current way of thinking. Every day! by the millions.

The only group that SOME liberals are trying to make COMPLETELY IMMUNE from even people's ATTEMPTS to even DISCUSS this with them - is sexual-themed groups, or orientation-themed groups, or whatever you want to call it. They are the only group that has that Privilege.

I don't have it for sure - I've had a million people try to talk me out and convert me to something other than my beliefs.
 
Every church in the world preaches every sunday to actively try to persuade people their way of thinking - which means trying to "change" them from their current way of thinking.
Be careful when walking by some of these churches on Sunday, they will run your ass over getting out of the parking lot.
 
Be careful when walking by some of these churches on Sunday, they will run your ass over getting out of the parking lot.

Oh that's definitely true!

But man, was I surprised by the last question. It's just the reverse! Every person and group in the world is fully subject to the possibility that they will be "talked out" or "counseled out" of their convictions.

In fact there are large organizations called things like "recovering catholics", or (I admit it), "recovering evangelical christians".

If counseling a person who wants to be counseled for the purpose of addressing something about their sexual orientation or sexual feelings - going in any direction - WANTS to be counseled, and if we're going to make that literally illegal, a criminal act, then I guess we need to make it a criminal act to try to talk people out of anything they hold dear, spiritual topics included!

Which of course is an unworkable rules, as judges say. It would essentially make illegal the existence of all forms of belief in absolute truth, since anyone who believes in an absolute truth on any issue necessarily believes that, by definition, it is exclusive.
 
At the end of the day the direction left wingers are going on these topics is just clearly unworkable. It creates a privileged group without justification, it makes long-held faith-based beliefs criminal even if they are doing absolutely no physical harm, and it elevates certain topics (like sexuality) to be up on a pedestal, immune from all critiques, if only a certain buzzword is thrown around.

Very quickly, not slowly, very quickly, almost instantly if the logical pattern is calculated - it makes pretty much every form of disagreement illegal, UNLESS you happen to be on the liberal side.

Liberals believe in free speech until you disagree. Then it's criminal. Which is a big proof that they want power, not freedom.
Defining and energizing Victim Groups are their primary method of getting power.
Which is a below-the-belt method, since we know how human nature is; it is pretty easy to sell human beings any argument that helps them assign external blame or helps them accept benefits, material or otherwise, at others' expense. A big % of manking will automatically say "yes" to any of that, but we should not appeal to the most perverse human instincts (of taking other people's money and blaming other people for the way we feel about disagreement), we should appeal to peope's better instincts - like personal responsibility and tolerance of ALL viewpoints, including th ones that "make me feel bad".

That's the appropriate balance of freedom and well being. Neither fully at the expense of the other. Vote Republican!
 
Doc, you really should study the story of Ted Haggard. It demonstrates, in full view of the brutal publicly exposed eye, quite a few things I have been trying to tell you.

It demonstrates the connection between drug abuse and sexual orientation malleability (quite specifically Meth, as I have told you)

It demonstrates a Christian's ability to recognize their sexual leanings, yet desire to pull themselves back to heterosexual, monogamous married lief (as I have told you).

It demonstrates that Ted had every opportunity to say "I am gay, and that's it", but instead he felt more fulfilled in the long term admitting, "I am bisexual", which is a fancy, liberal-approved way of saying "I have predispositions that can go either way" (EXACTLY what I have told you about some people), but, I choose to seek help to land in the category of my value system as a Christian, and actually be happy with it"

It demonstrates a person who received tons of counseling regarding his orientation, and was happier and better for it, and continued on with life happier and restored as a result.

It demonstrates a person who was willing to say things basically to the effect of: "It's not as simple as GAY or STRAIGHT. I have multiple leanings, and I can choose to fuel either, both, or none, according to my value system, and I DO choose to do that, and I WILL, and I HAVE, and I am changed for the better as a result".

I actually love Ted Haggard's story. I admire him as a Christian, a human with failings, a person willing to stand up to the lie that we are all either gay or straight and there is no changing it unless you are some kind of a self loathing person in denial ... and I admire him as a permanent piece of evidence that what you have believed, that all persons who have any homosexual leaning must never be questioned or steered even if they request it, is WRONG and literally false. Ted's life disproves a few things in that narrative.

And brings to light quite a few things I have mentioned but been unable to prove (most especially relating to what I have said about drugs, sex-obsessions, and homosexuality).
 
PS. We both agree, FYI, that there were plenty of "conversion" attempts that were bad, wrong, hurtful, unjustified, and possibly should be illegal.

But I think MOST of society's reasoning /emotion behind trying to make conversion 100% illegal has to do with past badness of convert-ers, NOT studies that actually included a sampling of all conversions.

in the past, people with addictions were horribly mistreated. that doesn't mean all treatments should be illegal.
in the past, people with adultery were horribley mistreated. that doesn't mean everyone who wants therapy to help them stay faithful should be illegal therapy.
in the past, people who got known as having attraction to children were probably burned to death. that doesn't mean all treatment to help people change is bad.

the majority of liberals' current view on 'conversion attempts' is based on the emotional reaction to ACTUAL BADNESS in the past - NOT based on a fair evidentiary assessment of all conversion attempts - even the totally gentle, solicited, 'wanted' ones I have described - which liberals are trying to outlaw now too.

We both agree gays have been mistreated in the past and some in the present. That's not the question.

The question is: To what extent is progressives' current desired policies on the issue marred by wanting to eliminate bad past practices, and over-reaching to eliminate acceptable other things?
 
@Isaac, your opinions are yours.

I actually agree that modern progressives have some, shall we say, questionable policies.

When it comes to gays (and to a lot of other things), and the question boils down to "nature vs. nurture" - I tend to believe that nature can be very strong. If nature ISN'T strong, then nurture has a chance to step in. And I have repeatedly provided links to articles discussing the strength of nature in this subject. You choose to dismiss what I offer, just as I dismiss yours.

I propose that rather than getting all worked up in lather, we have to agree that we are intractably opposed to each other's position. Shall we agree to disagree and just amicably leave it alone for a while?
 
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