Trump vs Zelensky

[Isaac]

Did you watch the now infamous video, I'm particularly interested in your opinion as long as you watched the longer version which is about a full 5 minutes long or so that led to the shouting match and the big problem between Trump and Zelensky? If so what do you think? (I want you to have watched the longer version so you have the true context of the point that Zelensky was carefully and painstakingly make before Vance interrupted... Not just starting at the point where it gets sensational.)

People are very divided on who actually behaved bad or worse.

As much as I wanted to defend Trump, after watching it three or four times, I would say this is my opinion::: Zelensky was essentially right, and in fact he had a very good point. But he probably should have realized that it was SUCH a good point it made Trump/Vance's comment on diplomacy seem almost stupid,, which triggered them and he probably should have known better than to push it at that point.

Sometimes you have a point that is such an incredible zinger it might be best left unsaid if you don't want a frying pan thrown at your head and that was kind of Zelensky's situation

So strategically was it smart what he did? No ,, and particularly in the context of in front of all the media cameras.
Does it seem like he was actually right and was making an excellent point? Absolutely.

 

[AccessBlaster]

Zelensky was told prior to his visit that there would be no security agreement, period. He knew that coming in. Trump stated weeks ago that he would mediate the deal only, and Europe has to negotiate security for Ukraine. Zelensky kept raising the issue and attempted to negotiate for security live on TV. So, the meeting was doomed by Zelensky before he even arrived in Washington.

It didn't end well for either side, was it cringey? Yup. But, I do think the deal will happen.

 

[Pat Hartman]

Zelensky was trying to pressure Trump publicly even after being told how/when security would be negotiated. It was a dumb move and it turned out badly for Zelensky. At the moment, Zelensky has no "cards" as Trump pointed out and he should have realized it. Trump had already reduced the amount of expected payback for our 350 BILLION dollar contribution to Zelensky's retirement fund which was a huge win for Zelensky. He was really stupid to push this issue. Now DOGE is going after him with a vengeance and they will find out what has happened to the missing money and that is going to be very bad for Zelensky. He should have quit while he was a head. At the moment, Zelensky is a dictator and also very unpopular at home so as soon as he backs off on the military law EO, he will be replaced.

 

[Isaac]

I think the thing that set off Vance and Trump was when zielinski made the point about what kind of diplomacy are you talking about? After neatly laying out the dozens of times over the past 10 years he's already tried to be diplomatic with Russia and they've broken their agreements. He was making a great point, a little too good and I think it made Vance look like an idiot which set off the Americans.

In the immediate things that he said prior to them getting upset at him, I didn't hear any negotiating security. I just heard him making a point about "what diplomacy are you talking about" since we've already tried that

 

[Isaac]

I think that if he was being proper Vance should have conceded the point zielinski was making about how diplomacy with Russia has failed repeatedly. Or at least that kind of diplomacy. He didn't really meet the moment it was like someone made a point that was so true but because he was unwilling to concede the point he just started yelling about being thankful and disrespectful and kind of evaded the point zielinski was making.. I think all in all Vance and Trump embarrassed themselves thoroughly.

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

Putin is having a good giggle about it!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1895864202516185394

 

[MarkK]

I think the thing that set off Vance and Trump

I think the fact it is possible, in font of cameras, to 'set off' the President and the Vice President of the United States is THE issue. It doesn't matter what was said, who said it, none of that. With everything that is at stake here, the fact those two men can't keep their collective shit together, on their home turf, two against one, has something important to say about who they are as people, and its not good.

 

[bob fitz]

I think that if he was being proper Vance should have conceded the point zielinski was making about how diplomacy with Russia has failed repeatedly. Or at least that kind of diplomacy. He didn't really meet the moment it was like someone made a point that was so true but because he was unwilling to concede the point he just started yelling about being thankful and disrespectful and kind of evaded the point zielinski was making.. I think all in all Vance and Trump embarrassed themselves thoroughly.

I remember there was once a British Prime Minister who tried to negotiate with a person who, IMHO, had similar traits to those of Putin. He returned, waving a piece of paper declaring "Peace in our time".
Have the most powerful people in the world learnt nothing from history? God help us all.

 

[Cotswold]

Some are asking if Zelensky has ordered his yacht yet.
But being a President is clearly a better paid job than a comedian, even if you're not very good at either.

Regarding his later day Castro look. Maybe Zelensky should ask Starmer how he gets his free suits and glasses from a party donor? Apparently even his wife and the chancellor have had their dresses and knickers paid for by Starmer's donator and supporter.

 

[Minty]

Trump and Vance demonstrated a total lack of understanding about the situation both politically and the wide international perspective.
Vance makes Trump almost look intelligent. Which might be why he is there.
This sums it up about a well as anything.

 

[moke123]

"Your gambling with World War III" said the man who's gambling with World War III and bankrupted a Casino.

 

[Isaac]

I think the fact it is possible, in font of cameras, to 'set off' the President and the Vice President of the United States is THE issue. It doesn't matter what was said, who said it, none of that. With everything that is at stake here, the fact those two men can't keep their collective shit together, on their home turf, two against one, has something important to say about who they are as people, and its not good.

I also think it is not good that they were so easily brought to raising their voices and becoming competitive. I agree with you in large part, although I don't think it is a huge bearing on their overall ability to govern but it did in this case

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

I think you're missing the real point - Trump and Vance are posturing.... They are showing strength in a situation which needs strong people. You're not going to get that sort of strength from the EU or the UK...

 

[Isaac]

I think the fact it is possible, in font of cameras, to 'set off' the President and the Vice President of the United States is THE issue. It doesn't matter what was said, who said it, none of that. With everything that is at stake here, the fact those two men can't keep their collective shit together, on their home turf, two against one, has something important to say about who they are as people, and its not good.

Of course it was pretty easy to set off Biden too, who frequently responded to reporters questions with some kind of mumbled nasty reply before he would walk away if he was caught in something he didn't want to answer.

Nonetheless I have to agree with you, it's not a good trait in people who are claiming to traffic and diplomacy.

 

[Pat Hartman]

Have the most powerful people in the world learnt nothing from history? God help us all.

You all seem to be forgetting that Putin was as well behaved as could be expected during Trump's first term. It was Obama and Biden that Putin broke deals with.

Zelensky came to the White House to sign a treaty that he had already agreed to and then on national TV tried to renegotiate it. Pretty dumb move but Trump and Vance could have been more gracious in pointing it out. Hope this causes Trump to go back to his original repayment figures. He had just reduced them dramatically to get Zelensky to sign on to the DMZ plan.

 

[Mike Krailo]

Wow, it's utterly amazing how little respect is given to an enormously brilliant plan which could be a huge benefit to Zelensky and the people of Ukraine, but he blew it. It sure looks like he did this on purpose as well. What Trump said is the truth, he doesn't have the cards to play the dangerous game he is playing with his own country. Zelensky may not have liked being in the position he is in, and none of us like it either, but when you get offered a get out of jail free card, you take it. He chose to stay in a never ending war.

It reminds me of one of those episodes of shark tank where Mr. Wonderful decides to help the business out in exchange for some royalties in perpetuity, and the owner is ultra greedy and turns down the only deal he's going to get, because no other shark is willing to take on the risk involved. In this case, it was the only deal to create a mutual beneficial end to any possible WW3 situation and rebuild Ukraine. All other deals don't end well because no one can guarantee any security like protection. Good luck with that.

Clearly both Trump and Vance expected a signing to occur or why was Zelensky there at all. They aren't going to negotiate the details of the deal on TV, they already did all of the that previously or they would not have brought him into the Oval. What transpired was a purposeful dissing of the presidents brilliant idea. As far as Vance is concerned, I'm disappointed in his interjection as it didn't help to move the deal forward at all. I think Trump could have handled it better by himself. That said, it was clear that Zelensky had no intention of signing any kind of deal that didn't include guaranteed security because he doesn't think it could be that that simple.

The very act of agreeing to security would be the start of WW3 IMO.

 

[AccessBlaster]

I think you're missing the real point - Trump and Vance are posturing.... They are showing strength in a situation which needs strong people. You're not going to get that sort of strength from the EU or the UK...

I wouldn't be surprised if Trump walks away with a better deal than he originally planned.

 

[Isaac]

Of course it was pretty easy to set off Biden too, who frequently responded to reporters questions with some kind of mumbled nasty reply before he would walk away if he was caught in something he didn't want to answer.

Nonetheless I have to agree with you, it's not a good trait in people who are claiming to traffic and diplomacy.

On the other hand, a few more observations.

1. By the time Trump steps into his leadership role, the situation he inherits is not just overdue for change—it is long past the point of reasonable neglect. The issue, whatever its nature—be it financial mismanagement bleeding resources, systemic inefficiencies eroding progress, or a crisis exacting a devastating toll on lives—has been left to fester for far too long.
   
   Trump's urgency is not the mark of an impatient leader but of a leader attuned to reality. He is not merely pushing for change; he is giving voice to the frustration of those who have waited, suffered, and watched in exasperation as bureaucratic inertia or misplaced priorities allowed the problem to persist. His determination is not reckless—it is reflective. His impatience is not personal—it is the accumulated impatience of everyone who understands that delay has already cost too much.
   
   Trump does not seek to disrupt for disruption’s sake. He seeks to correct an oversight so glaring that its continued neglect is no longer an option.
2. This shake-up may be exactly what Zelensky needs. It's cool for Z to come across as a person unshakeable in their demeanor, but in this case perhaps reflected badly on him. He needed someone to give him that "hands around the throat shaking you back and forth" moment so that he GETS it - that he needs to demonstrate serious efforts to END the war, not just FIGHT the war. We all get that you can fight, now show us you're capable of stopping fighting. Zelensky has benefitted financially from people who will just keep pumping extraordinary sums of money and weapons for him to fight what is clearly becoming a "forever war", just like the middle east. It's time for a change and Trump is forcing that - with a natural amount of frustration with Z.

I guess the more I ponder this whole situation, from A to Z, the more I'm with Trump on it. Vance interjection was not super helpful but the overall fact that it "blew up" is exactly what Zelensky needs - some kind of wake up call to shake him out of his "fight fight fight" mentality and start being serious about wanting peace.

 

[Isaac]

I think you're missing the real point - Trump and Vance are posturing.... They are showing strength in a situation which needs strong people. You're not going to get that sort of strength from the EU or the UK...

That's a good point. Everyone else seems to be giving Zelensky a hug and kiss where what he needs is a little spanking that says, the endless flow of free money is going to come to an end if you aren't willing to compromise a little on a peace deal.

Donald Trump does seem to hold a relatively unique position in politics where he is "hated for his accomplishments".

 

[Mike Krailo]

Donald Trump does seem to hold a relatively unique position in politics where he is "hated for his accomplishments".

There is always to going to be hatred towards him, because the left hates that he is in power and cannot be puppetted like a Biden. They will do anything to derail his success on every level they can for their own selfish reasons. The plan that was offered is mutually beneficial which are the best kind of deals.

While I view the latest skirmish between the two leaders as a failure, the idea behind it was certainly not. I would classify it as next level brilliant. So hopefully the guy can come to his senses and re-work the deal.