Verdict

Democrats have successfully changed Trumps image from billionaire elite to an average citizen that everyone can relate. Good job.
Luck of the draw. Venue isn't decided on political persuasions.
Unless your OJ Simpson
 
Blimey moke, you must live in the wilderness! We don't really have dangerous animals in the UK. It is all quite tame over here.

I do understand being concerned with an all white jury, and I agree with you on that, but if I use your argument, it is just luck of the draw. My understanding, unless I am wrong, is that nowadays they try to have a racial mix on juries, to stop prejudice and therefore an unfair trial. I am kinda guessing on this one but have a feeling it is true. And which is why you cannot get a fair trial when the entire jury hate you because of political reasons. So given that my analogy is close, you would seem to agree that due to luck of the draw, you would have concerns about Trump getting a fair trial.

However, the main part of my question is about Merchan. Imagine in the Klu Klux Klan example, the authorities reviewed the illegal Klan donation. "Nothing to see here!", they say. "See you next Friday at the burning." They are all Klan members and that is the problem.

You have to ask the question, if Merchan wants to stop Trump, which his donation proves, how can he be impartial?

About the records, if I recall correctly you said they cannot be used unless you get sufficient time to review them.

Also, I think you said that one of the Supreme Court justices should recuse themselve because their wife was at the Capitol property break-in. If so, would it not be a double standard if Merchan did not recuse himself because his daughter is a Trump hating acitivist who raises $100M+ to fight the man?
 
Democrats have successfully changed Trumps image from billionaire elite to an average citizen that everyone can relate. Good job.

Unless your OJ Simpson
I think OJ was innocent, wasn't he? [Runs for cover]
 
I do understand being concerned with an all white jury,
Too bad it is not possible to say that you would be concerned with an all black jury. That would be racist.
 
Blimey moke, you must live in the wilderness! We don't really have dangerous animals in the UK. It is all quite tame over here.

I do understand being concerned with an all white jury, and I agree with you on that, but if I use your argument, it is just luck of the draw. My understanding, unless I am wrong, is that nowadays they try to have a racial mix on juries, to stop prejudice and therefore an unfair trial. I am kinda guessing on this one but have a feeling it is true. And which is why you cannot get a fair trial when the entire jury hate you because of political reasons. So given that my analogy is close, you would seem to agree that due to luck of the draw, you would have concerns about Trump getting a fair trial.

However, the main part of my question is about Merchan. Imagine in the Klu Klux Klan example, the authorities reviewed the illegal Klan donation. "Nothing to see here!", they say. "See you next Friday at the burning." They are all Klan members and that is the problem.

You have to ask the question, if Merchan wants to stop Trump, which his donation proves, how can he be impartial?

About the records, you said they cannot be used unless you get them in sufficient time. But they were.
 
Blimey moke, you must live in the wilderness! We don't really have dangerous animals in the UK. It is all quite tame over here.
People get attacked by seagulls in Brighton. I remember some sodding seagull pinched my sausage whilst I was walking along the prom.
Col
 
Blimey moke, you must live in the wilderness!
I absolutely don't live in the wilderness and we had a young black bear in my neighborhood early in the spring. My granddaughter sees them frequently at the summer camp she works for. They are dangerous but nowhere near as dangerous as brown bears (grizzly) who will chase you down and eat you.

Good thing it wasn't garbage day when the black bear was wandering around or we would have had trouble getting rid of him. They are omnivores and opportunistic eaters. There wasn't much to eat so he moved on.

Black bear | Size, Weight, Habitat, Diet, & Facts | Britannica

I had a crow scare the crap out of me a couple of days ago. I stopped at Burger King and was sitting in the parking lot eating my lunch and reading a book with my window down. He landed quietly on my driver side mirror and squawked right in my ear. I bumped my head on the car roof and my chicken nugget flew out of my hand but landed inside the car. The bird wasn't rattled. He just hopped on to the hood and watched me through the windshield. I finally rolled up my window since he didn't want to leave.
 
I read a story today about a convicted murderer facing less time in jail than Trump, when you add up everything Trump is accused of.
 
Blimey moke, you must live in the wilderness! We don't really have dangerous animals in the UK. It is all quite tame over here.

He's a new one too. He's not the one who lives back there. I'd peg him at around 300 lbs.

Good thing it wasn't garbage day
They know the pick up schedules better than I do.

but if I use your argument, it is just luck of the draw.
I meant it more in the context of where you commit your crime, venue wise.

nowadays they try to have a racial mix on juries,
Commissioner of jurors sends out jury summonses randomly to eligible people from the community. They don't look at race, political leanings, etc. Totally random. It's up to the D.A. and defense counsel to select people they're comfortable with. Judges don't pick them. I admit I was surprised team trump only exercised 1 challenge.

And which is why you cannot get a fair trial when the entire jury hate you because of political reasons.
Do you think juries hate repeat child molesters or rapists? Or even any criminal in general? They pledge to be fair and impartial and decide the case on the evidence alone. That's the backbone of our legal system. Juries take that oath pretty seriously.
We don't know anything about the juries political makeup. Looking at the list and what's known about them, it doesn't strike me as being obviously partisan. In fact a few may be right leaning seems to me and not long term NYers. Here's the list https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/apr/18/jurors-trump-hush-money-trial-jury Juror #5 even sounds a little like Pat.

About the records, you said they cannot be used unless you get them in sufficient time. But they were.
Records that the Prosecution is obligated to exchange and is under their control. I believe the records were the federal prosecution of Cohen. The law can be complicated and I'm speaking in general terms. Surprises do happen. You just need to be prepared. The records were available to trump from day 1. There was nothing stopping him from getting them himself. It was a courtesy to give them time to review them. I think Braggs office needed the time to review them too. I think I mentioned that I had to testify the other day due to a late disclosure by the DA 2 days before trial. The had to disclose it as they had just received it that day and it was exculpatory for our client. They were no longer going to call the witness and were going to go forward on the basis of the 911 call and excited utterance. When I showed up for trial and they were informed I had already interviewed the witness and would be testifying, they dismissed the case. Attorneys generally list me as a witness in most cases just so the other side can't object when I'm needed.
 
Why is the goddess of justice kept blindfolded at court?
She is no longer blindfolded. The courts/Prosecutors tailor the prosecution and the judge's rulings to whoever has been accused just as they do in banana republics and in Russia. Prosecutors get away with basing their election campaign on who they will prosecute and nobody cares because it isn't them that the prosecutor is promising to persecute.

Show me the man, I'll show you the crime. It is now critical that we "see" the person so we know whether he is guilty. Elect me, I'll get Mark;)
 
Do you think juries hate repeat child molesters or rapists? Or even any criminal in general? They pledge to be fair and impartial and decide the case on the evidence alone. That's the backbone of our legal system.
Forgive me if I say so, but your analogy does not hold for a number of reasons. What you are talking about here is the crime being commited. It is not a crime to be a Republican. And before the trial, Trump had never been convicted of any crime.

Furthermore, part of the backbone of the legal system is that the court specifically states that the prosecution cannot bring up previous convictions, such as being a repeat molester or rapist. Why? Because it leads to a prejudicial jury, who no longer just looks at the evidence alone. And that is precisely the point why you cannot get a fair trial in this case, since the jury brings bias due to their baked in hatred of Trump. They are not looking at just the evidence.

Juries take that oath pretty seriously.
Do you mean like in the OJ Simpson case?

The records were available to trump from day 1.
Why did Bragg take 7 years to get them? The prosecutor is obliged to provide them in a timely manner. How does the defence know what records they should seek? I thought it was up to the prosecutor to select their evidence to be used. How does the defence know what records they need when the prosecutor refuses to tell them what the crime was?
 
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One of the paths to felony enhancement was novel but that doesn't mean it's invalid. No one was ever charged with murder for selling an addict bad heroin until they were.
You are comparing a charge that is common with one that is unique. And again, that is precisely the point: novel legal theories to indict a political opponent who is leading in the polls. They have to make something up to "Get Trump".

If you want to argue that there is always a first time a new legal theory is charged, then this plays into the justification to convict your political opponent where there is no precedent.

The above were my thoughts, however limited due to my finite knowledge and reasoning ability.

But forget what I think. Let us see what Claude 3 thinks of the argument, something much more intelligent than I will ever be! OMG, these AI things will take over the world!

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Edit: In the future, I can see arguments on this forum being essentially a battle between AI's, as we all stop thinking ourselves and let our digital overlords do our dirty work!
 
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Trump had never been convicted of any crime.
And the latest conviction still did not specify which "crime" he was convicted of. The judge even said that the prosecution did not prove any crime. So much for your Constitutional right to know what you are being charged with so you can defend yourself.

Of course, the State of NY, the DOJ, and whoever oversees campaign financing all decided that Trump committed NO crime for the hush money payment. UNTIL he became a threat to the Democrats by running for President again.
 
Forgive me if I say so, but your analogy does not hold for a number of reasons. What you are talking about here is the crime being commited. It is not a crime to be a Republican. And before the trial, Trump had never been convicted of any crime.
Context. You repeatedly say that the jurors hate trump. Your argument is based on that yet there is no indication it's true other than wishful thinking.

Furthermore, part of the backbone of the legal system is that the court specifically states that the prosecution cannot bring up previous convictions, such as being a repeat molester or rapist.
Depends on the facts. Prior bad acts are litigated in almost every case where the defendant has a record. In some instances it is a requirement such as OUI 3rd. To sustain that charge they must prove that the defendant was convicted at least twice before on the same charge and that it is the same person. There are often time limits on how far the reach back can go. It all revolves around the specific facts of the specific case.
I thought it was up to the prosecutor to select their evidence to be used.
It is. And they turn that over as required. They also turn over whatever exculpatory evidence they may have.

Why did Bragg take 7 years to get them? The prosecutor is obliged to provide them in a timely manner.
They are 3rd party records not under the possession or control of the DA. Team trump asked for them in January and they were then provided. Trump wanted them to impeach Cohen. I'm pretty sure they knew Cohen would be a witness from day 1. Why didn't they ask for them sooner? Just a guess but trump has a habit of trying to stall the inevitable and it was probably further efforts to try and stall the trial.

How does the defence know what records they need when the prosecutor refuses to tell them what the crime was?
I'm sure there are boxes and boxes of pleadings between the DA and Defense that we have not seen, nor heard about, and probably never will. There is a standard pleading called a "Bill Of Particulars" -

a bill of particulars is a detailed, formal, written statement of charges or claims by a plaintiff or the prosecutor given upon the defendant's formal request to the court for more detailed information.

I tend to recall there was a motion hearing where a B Of P was discussed and it would have been malpractice if team trump didn't make that request.

Reminds me of a civil case I had back when discovery rules were different. Plaintiff was claiming a back injury where he couldn't work or do things like walk a long distance or carry heavy objects like he could do pre-accident. When the plaintiff completed their case we rolled the TV into the courtroom and they nearly fainted. They were unaware we conducted surveillance on him and had followed him from Brooklyn to the Delaware Water Gap where he went for a long hike carrying a big cooler full of beer and some other items. Oops!
 
Don't forget that H. Clinton claimed that the phony Steele Dossier, meant to sway the 2016 presidential election against Trump, was a identified as a legal expense. Hillary only gets a minor civil fine for that, yet Trump gets charged with 34 felony counts! That is outrageous and strongly implies that the "fix" was in against Trump. That is not equal justice. Democrats have clearly been targeting Trump since 2016 with misleading accusations.
 
Don't forget that H. Clinton claimed that the phony Steele Dossier, meant to sway the 2016 presidential election against Trump, was a identified as a legal expense. Hillary only gets a minor civil fine for that, yet Trump gets charged with 34 felony counts! That is outrageous and strongly implies that the "fix" was in against Trump. That is not equal justice. Democrats have clearly been targeting Trump since 2016 with misleading accusations.
We have to look at why the Republicans are not engaging in lawfare and correct it. Obama and Clinton need to be hauled in front of a kangaroo court and prosecuted for crimes not yet defined.

lawfare, lawfare, lawfare!
 
We have to look at why the Republicans are not engaging in lawfare and correct it.
Now THAT is a question that isn't getting asked. The GOP gets to blame it on the DEMS and keep their skirts nice and clean...
 
Context. You repeatedly say that the jurors hate trump. Your argument is based on that yet there is no indication it's true other than wishful thinking.
Was your argument about a concern for an all white jury when a black man was on trial also wishful thinking? Where is your evidence there? I think a better and more accurate description is probabilistic thinking. In fact that is how the legal system works when getting a conviction, as you well know. It is not a question of being 100% certain, it is a question of probability. In this case, Manhatten is one of the strongest Democrat leaning areas in the country, with about 90% of them polling for the Dems. It is like being surrounded by Klan members and the black mans defence team has to pick the most moderate of them. The number of jurors in this case who said they cannot be unbiased was considerable.

Depends on the facts. Prior bad acts are litigated in almost every case where the defendant has a record. In some instances it is a requirement such as OUI 3rd. To sustain that charge they must prove that the defendant was convicted at least twice before on the same charge and that it is the same person. There are often time limits on how far the reach back can go. It all revolves around the specific facts of the specific case.

It is. And they turn that over as required. They also turn over whatever exculpatory evidence they may have.
I think you are conflating sentencing/litigation with what is revealed to the jury. They are two different things. Our debate was concerning jury bias depending on what they know prior to trial.

They are 3rd party records not under the possession or control of the DA. Team trump asked for them in January and they were then provided. Trump wanted them to impeach Cohen. I'm pretty sure they knew Cohen would be a witness from day 1. Why didn't they ask for them sooner? Just a guess but trump has a habit of trying to stall the inevitable and it was probably further efforts to try and stall the trial.
It is the obligation of the prosecution to provide those records in a timely manner. As you stated yourself, they cannot be used otherwise. If the Trump team could have got them years ago, then so could Bragg. It is prosecutorial misconduct if you don't give adequate time. You are wrongly putting the burden on the defence for obtaining records.

I'm sure there are boxes and boxes of pleadings between the DA and Defense that we have not seen, nor heard about, and probably never will. There is a standard pleading called a "Bill Of Particulars" -

I tend to recall there was a motion hearing where a B Of P was discussed and it would have been malpractice if team trump didn't make that request.
The "Stop Trump" judge Merchan denied in part Trump's motion for a Bill of Particulars. It seems New York law has its own perverse set of rules.

Reminds me of a civil case I had back when discovery rules were different. Plaintiff was claiming a back injury where he couldn't work or do things like walk a long distance or carry heavy objects like he could do pre-accident. When the plaintiff completed their case we rolled the TV into the courtroom and they nearly fainted. They were unaware we conducted surveillance on him and had followed him from Brooklyn to the Delaware Water Gap where he went for a long hike carrying a big cooler full of beer and some other items. Oops!
I've never been in court. The whole though of it terrifies me!

All the above is said in good faith. I have had my head inside a bbq for the last hour, where I have been replacing the burners. I think I've inhaled some gas so any errors above are to be blamed on that. :D
 
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