Verdict

[Jon]

Don't forget that H. Clinton claimed that the phony Steele Dossier, meant to sway the 2016 presidential election against Trump, was a identified as a legal expense. Hillary only gets a minor civil fine for that, yet Trump gets charged with 34 felony counts! That is outrageous and strongly implies that the "fix" was in against Trump. That is not equal justice. Democrats have clearly been targeting Trump since 2016 with misleading accusations.

Exactly, and when I asked Microsoft's AI Copilot why it went blank and said it can't provide an answer. Even the AI is rigged!

"No one is above the law" has zero meaning when the one's saying it operate as though they are.

And Biden recently commented on the rule of law and Trump's accusations that things were rigged.

Biden:

"Our justice system has endured for nearly 250 years, and it literally is the cornerstone of America. Our justice system, that justice should be respected. And we should never allow anyone to tear it down. It's as simple as that,"

And yet Biden has no qualms about admonishing the Supreme Court justices rulings regarding Roe v. Wade. So what is it Joe, respect the corrupt lower courts and disrespect the highest court in the land? Double standards again.

 

[moke123]

It is the obligation of the prosecution to provide those records in a timely manner. As you stated yourself, they cannot be used otherwise. If the Trump team could have got them years ago, then so could Bragg. It is prosecutorial misconduct if you don't give adequate time. You are wrongly putting the burden on the defence for obtaining records.

You really don't understand this. Bear in mind I'm speaking in general terms because I'm not privy to all the motion practices that occurred. The records sought were the federal prosecution of Cohen. Those records were compiled by, and are under the care, custody and control of the Feds. They are not part of braggs case against trump. They were not in the care, custody, or control of bragg. Bragg was not using them in the prosecution of trump. Bragg conducted his own investigation. Bragg presumably had no knowledge of any exculpatory information that may or may not be contained in those records as it relates to trump and therefore he had no affirmative duty to seek them out.

What makes you think the defense has no burden? I'd be out of a job. When I get a new murder case the first thing I do is dig up everything I can about everyone involved. You obtain your own copies of every document that the prosecution exchanges to ensure you got it all. You seek out every other document you can think of. You run everyone's record. You speak to every witness and find new ones. Visit every crime scene. Examine every piece of physical evidence. Dig up whatever Brady material you can find on involved law enforcement. When the trial rolls around you run background on every potential juror to aid in picking the jury. One could argue the defense bears a greater burden than the prosecution does.

I've never been in court. The whole though of it terrifies me!

Tell me about it. You have any idea what it's like to testify knowing one slip up could cost someone a lifetime.

 

[Steve R.]

@moke123: While you may want to fervently argue the minutiae of what the evidence demonstrates, you apparently dismiss that this was, from the very beginning, a bogus case. Hillary Clinton gets a minor slap on the wrist for attempting to manipulate the 2016 election by falsifying a bookkeeping entry, yet Trump gets hit for 34 felonies for essentially the same crime (assuming a crime was committed). Based on the concept of equal justice, at the most, Trump should only have been hit with a minor slap on the wrist.

PS: To my knowledge, you never answered the question of how the Trump team should have entered the payment in the accounting books. All I keep hearing from the anti-Trump crowd is that entry was "falsified", but how it should have been recorded has never been answered. If it can't be entered in another manner, then there was no falsification and the whole trial was bogus.

 

[Jon]

You really don't understand this. Bear in mind I'm speaking in general terms because I'm not privy to all the motion practices that occurred. The records sought were the federal prosecution of Cohen. Those records were compiled by, and are under the care, custody and control of the Feds. They are not part of braggs case against trump. They were not in the care, custody, or control of bragg. Bragg was not using them in the prosecution of trump. Bragg conducted his own investigation. Bragg presumably had no knowledge of any exculpatory information that may or may not be contained in those records as it relates to trump and therefore he had no affirmative duty to seek them out.

What you are saying is at odds with what happened in the trial. Bragg requested these records, and therefore has an obligation to provide them to the defense in a timely manner. It is a basic discovery obligation. I do understand this after all!

What makes you think the defense has no burden? ... One could argue the defense bears a greater burden than the prosecution does.

Except the defense doesn't have that burden. Bragg had a legal obligation to provide all possessed evidence in a timely manner. Do you still dispute this, despite the law being quite clear on this?

 

[moke123]

Bragg requested these records, and therefore has an obligation to provide them to the defense in a timely manner.

And how does one exchange something they don't have? Timely includes upon receipt. Just like the case I had last Friday. The delay falls on SDNY. That's not braggs office. The remedies depend on motion practices and a lot of legal doctrines . In skimming through some articles it appears that much of those documents had already been exchanged and most of it was duplicative and irrelevant. Trump did move for sanctions which were denied. At least part of that decision indicates that the some of the request was a "fishing expedition" (something we try all the time but are usually denied) and the requests were not timely on trumps part. There a a ton of rules that apply in Doc production. That's why I said you can only speak in general terms because we don't know the specific details of the requests and relevance of the records. These are not simple issues or a one size fits all issue.

edit: just noticed you posted an article earlier which included:

At the March 25 hearing, Merchan said the DA’s office had no duty to collect evidence from the federal investigation, nor was the U.S. attorney’s office required to volunteer the documents. What transpired was a “far cry” from Manhattan prosecutors “injecting themselves in the process and vehemently and aggressively trying to obstruct your ability to get documentation,” the judge said.

“It’s just not what happened,” Merchan said.

The DA’s office denied wrongdoing and blamed Trump’s lawyers for waiting until Jan. 18 to subpoena the records from the U.S. attorney’s office — a mere nine weeks before the trial was originally supposed to start. Merchan told defense lawyers they should have acted sooner if they believed they didn’t have all the records they wanted.

We'll probably learn a lot more during the appellate review.

Except the defense doesn't have that burden.

My reference to the defense's burden is in the context of the defense has the burden of providing a competent defense. Quite frankly, I think they did a shitty job albeit they didn't have much to work with.

PS: To my knowledge, you never answered the question of how the Trump team should have entered the payment in the accounting books. All I keep hearing from the anti-Trump crowd is that entry was "falsified", but how it should have been recorded has never been answered. If it can't be entered in another manner, then there was no falsification and the whole trial was bogus.

Thought I answered that in post #80. I suppose they could have entered "Hush Money Reimbursement" but the whole point of the conspiracy was to hide that fact. This part of the case is pretty simple and straight forward. Cohen submitted fake invoices for legal services never provided. Fake being the keyword. Trump then paid them as if they were a legit expense and presumably use then as a tax deduction. Sorta like if you hired a hitman to strangle your wife and he gave you a receipt for "Respiratory Therapy" Could you legally deduct that as a medical expense?

Based on the concept of equal justice, at the most, Trump should only have been hit with a minor slap on the wrist.

Maybe look up the difference between civil and criminal law.

 

[Steve R.]

Maybe look up the difference between civil and criminal law.

Sorry, but Bragg twisted what was essentially a civil bookkeeping "error" into a criminal case whereas Hillary's case was left as a minor civil case. Hillary received a sweetheart deal whereas this was an blatant political hit job against Trump.

 

[Jon]

Sorry, but Bragg twisted what was essentially a civil bookkeeping "error" into a criminal case whereas Hillary's case was left as a minor civil case. Hillary received a sweetheart deal whereas this was an blatant political hit job against Trump.

I was going to say the same thing. Same case, different prosecution. There is one difference though, Trumps statute of limitations had expired and Hillarys hadn't. Or in other words, Trump shouldn't have been prosecuted, whilst Hillary should have been. But instead, Trump gets a charge elivated to a felony. I would like to hear from the Democrats why they think this is not a double standard.

 

[Jon]

And how does one exchange something they don't have? Timely includes upon receipt. Just like the case I had last Friday. The delay falls on SDNY. That's not braggs office. The remedies depend on motion practices and a lot of legal doctrines . In skimming through some articles it appears that much of those documents had already been exchanged and most of it was duplicative and irrelevant. Trump did move for sanctions which were denied. At least part of that decision indicates that the some of the request was a "fishing expedition" (something we try all the time but are usually denied) and the requests were not timely on trumps part. There a a ton of rules that apply in Doc production. That's why I said you can only speak in general terms because we don't know the specific details of the requests and relevance of the records. These are not simple issues or a one size fits all issue.

Again, by saying the requests are not timely on Trumps part, you are still putting the burden back on the defense to get these documents. Yet earlier you said this:

The defense gets everything well in advance and if they don't it's excluded.

Source: https://www.access-programmers.co.uk/forums/threads/verdict.331262/page-2#post-1922010

So in effect, you are saying it should be excluded (which it was not) and that the prosecution does not have a burden (which it does). You do realise that this is the opposite of what the law requires?

And how does one exchange something they don't have?

Until they do, to use your turn of phrase. And when they do, they have a legal burden to provide these to the defense in a timely manner, do you not agree?

We'll probably learn a lot more during the appellate review.

I am interested to see what the appellate Klan members will do. Can they rise above their Democrat bias when the Donald is the target? I know the FBI couldn't during the Russia investigation. They kept going for years, despite there being no evidence. And neither could 51 former intelligence officials who falsly labeled Hunter Biden's laptop as Russia disinformation, despite knowing that it wasn't.

My reference to the defense's burden is in the context of the defense has the burden of providing a competent defense. Quite frankly, I think they did a shitty job albeit they didn't have much to work with.

Or in other words, you do accept that I both understand and was correct in saying the burden was on the prosecution in providing those documents to the defense in a timely manner.

A defense would be a little easier if you knew what crime you were being charged for and that documents were delivered in plenty of time. None of these things happened. Can you name what crime he was charged with?

 

[Thales750]

His crime was being a threat to both parties and the status quo. I do not know enough about the case (by design) to argue for or against the ruling. What I do know is that this is inconsistent with other past Presidents - doesn't mean he should be let off the hook is there is evidence of wrong doing.

But the reason this went down the way it went down is because he is a threat - no more, no less. He is popular and the American public wants him. Were he allowed to run, he would win. To steal the election this time would be too obvious and difficult to cover-up.

This is what happens when you don't toe the line and sing the company song. He is lucky he hasn't met an unfortunate accident - yet.

Part of the American public, and a broken Electoral System.

Republican gerrymandering and winner take all politics in the Electoral College is the reason Trump would be elected. I realize his supporters don't care how he gets there, as long as whatever it takes to increase his power, and to hold any people, except full-on MAGA worshipers, in contempt.

MAGA is some dangerous business. I think it's possible that we are going to see just how dangerous it is.

 

[moke123]

Or in other words, you do accept that I both understand and was correct in saying the burden was on the prosecution in providing those documents to the defense in a timely manner.

Your almost there. Again I'll state that I'm talking in generalities as neither you nor I know the intricacies involved. These issues are extremely fact based on a case by case basis. Just because a defendant wants something it does not create an obligation for the prosecution to provide it. Generally anything the prosecution is going to use at trial must be exchanged. Same goes for the defense.

Again, it was litigated and according to the article you provided the judge found the prosecution did not have an obligation to pursue those records on behalf of the defense, nor was SDNY required to voluntarily provide them. We don't even know the scope of the request and there are exceptions such as attorney work product that may apply. I can't tell you the reason without more information.

 

[Pat Hartman]

Now THAT is a question that isn't getting asked. The GOP gets to blame it on the DEMS and keep their skirts nice and clean...

They have "hearings" in Congress to make it look like they're doing something but when it comes time to take action, they don't

Republican gerrymandering and winner take all politics in the Electoral College is the reason Trump would be elected.

Excuse me. Tell me that the Democrats are not guilty of gerrymandering with a straight face while we watch your nose grow. We have the technology to create districts using software. It has been available for at least 10 years and yet we still allow the party in power whether it be the Republicans or Democrats of trying to skew an election based on how they draw lines. That is because the Democrats AND Republicans LIKE IT THAT WAY. It gives the parties power that they would not have otherwise so there is no way it changes. They only complain about gerrymandering when the other party is controlling the lines.

How Gerrymandering Began in the US | HISTORY

Long before it got its name, Gerrymandering was already happening in the United States.

www.history.com

And you are blaming the Electoral College on Trump now. Really?? Read the Federalist Papers. Understand the politics of the time. It will be quite clear to you WHY the Electoral College was chosen for the purpose of electing the President. Only the President, not any other position in government. Also, keep in mind that the Senators used to be appointed by the State Assemblies rather than national elections. Having the Senators appointed by the State Assemblies is what kept them from going rogue. They knew who they owed their allegiance to and they knew they could be replaced. With the current method of a popular vote, they owe their allegiance to their big donors. They could give a flying fig about the people who actually voted for them. They cater to the "money" rather than what their constituents actually want.

This map is the reason that the Electoral College is important. It shows that support for Trump (in this case) is widespread whereas support for Clinton (this was the 2016 map) is restricted to large population concentrations. The Electoral College mitigates the importance of the large cities and gives the rest of the country a chance.

 

[moke123]

And when you map it by population it looks a little different

 

[moke123]

What a surprise. More indictments of Trump Aides in Wisconsin today. Who saw that coming?

Felony Charges Filed Against Attorneys, Aide Who Worked For Trump During 2020 Campaign In Wisconsin

Trump lost Wisconsin to Biden, a Democrat, by fewer than 21,000 votes. Trump carried Wisconsin by a similar margin in 2016.

www.huffpost.com

Hmm, busy day for lawyers

Right-Wing Media Executive Charged In Massive Money-Laundering Scheme

A federal indictment accuses the media company's CFO of laundering millions in illicit funds using cryptocurrency and prepaid debit cards.

www.huffpost.com

 

[Thales750]

They have "hearings" in Congress to make it look like they're doing something but when it comes time to take action, they don't

Excuse me. Tell me that the Democrats are not guilty of gerrymandering with a straight face while we watch your nose grow. We have the technology to create districts using software. It has been available for at least 10 years and yet we still allow the party in power whether it be the Republicans or Democrats of trying to skew an election based on how they draw lines. That is because the Democrats AND Republicans LIKE IT THAT WAY. It gives the parties power that they would not have otherwise so there is no way it changes. They only complain about gerrymandering when the other party is controlling the lines.

How Gerrymandering Began in the US | HISTORY

Long before it got its name, Gerrymandering was already happening in the United States.

www.history.com

And you are blaming the Electoral College on Trump now. Really?? Read the Federalist Papers. Understand the politics of the time. It will be quite clear to you WHY the Electoral College was chosen for the purpose of electing the President. Only the President, not any other position in government. Also, keep in mind that the Senators used to be appointed by the State Assemblies rather than national elections. Having the Senators appointed by the State Assemblies is what kept them from going rogue. They knew who they owed their allegiance to and they knew they could be replaced. With the current method of a popular vote, they owe their allegiance to their big donors. They could give a flying fig about the people who actually voted for them. They cater to the "money" rather than what their constituents actually want.

This map is the reason that the Electoral College is important. It shows that support for Trump (in this case) is widespread whereas support for Clinton (this was the 2016 map) is restricted to large population concentrations. The Electoral College mitigates the importance of the large cities and gives the rest of the country a chance.
View attachment 114364

This map lies, in that it leaves out so much of the truth.
I can really only speak to Texas. Those blue areas in Texas represent millions of voters who voted Democrat were turned into votes for Trump. Several million votes. So its ok for MAGA folks to create a false narrative about steeling votes when the system create millions of Republican Votes.
The very first time a little more than half of the Texas voters vote Democrat the Austin boys will be shouting from the roof tops how we need to modernize the system.
I basically posted this to trigger you. I knew that you would not see the logic, as it turns out...

 

[Pat Hartman]

More indictments of Trump Aides in Wisconsin today. Who saw that coming?

And you think this is good? Where is your head? Are you completely unaware of all of the alternate electors who have been sent to Congress in the past? Since when has this been a crime?

Hmm, busy day for lawyers

There are crooks everywhere, just look into the White House. Why do we call these crooks (assuming the allegations are valid and not made up) "Right-Wing" but we don't call non-Trump supporters "Left-Wing"? Is this guy more crooked because he works for a conservative rag than he would be if he worked for CNN???????????? It is all click-bait and an is effort to bias the public and you just suck it up all the time. This is the confirmation bias of your news feed. The more you click on the "right-wing" articles, the more you will get. THE WHOLE WORLD HATES TRUMP. That is what your news feed tells you. You never see the "Left-wing" articles because they are so far down the feed that they are essentially off your radar.

 

[Thales750]

Again, by saying the requests are not timely on Trumps part, you are still putting the burden back on the defense to get these documents. Yet earlier you said this:


Source: https://www.access-programmers.co.uk/forums/threads/verdict.331262/page-2#post-1922010

So in effect, you are saying it should be excluded (which it was not) and that the prosecution does not have a burden (which it does). You do realise that this is the opposite of what the law requires?


Until they do, to use your turn of phrase. And when they do, they have a legal burden to provide these to the defense in a timely manner, do you not agree?


I am interested to see what the appellate Klan members will do. Can they rise above their Democrat bias when the Donald is the target? I know the FBI couldn't during the Russia investigation. They kept going for years, despite there being no evidence. And neither could 51 former intelligence officials who falsly labeled Hunter Biden's laptop as Russia disinformation, despite knowing that it wasn't.


Or in other words, you do accept that I both understand and was correct in saying the burden was on the prosecution in providing those documents to the defense in a timely manner.

A defense would be a little easier if you knew what crime you were being charged for and that documents were delivered in plenty of time. None of these things happened. Can you name what crime he was charged with?

There is no doubt that this is headed for the supreme court.
They should accelerate the process so it can be done before Nov.

 

[Thales750]

And when you map it by population it looks a little different

View attachment 114365

Exactly. Texas law is BS. We are by definition a Purple State. City dwelling Texans need to get more involve in Texas politics. If we did, there would be no more swing states, Texas would change all that.

 

[Pat Hartman]

This map lies, in that it leaves out so much of the truth.

You are ranting. What the map shows is that flyover country leans Republican. We see that the cities lean Democrat. Anyone who knows anything about the country knows that the heartland is less populated than the coasts but when you add up ALL the people in the heartland they come close to half the population of the country. This is why it is only rarely that the Electoral College ends up disagreeing with the popular vote count. So FIVE times. Wow! The fact that in four of them it was the Republican candidate who ended up winning should tell you the kind of people who live in the heartland. People who are independent, willing to work, and able to think for themselves rather than the sheep in the cities.

The bubble map simply inflates the self importance of the cities. There are lots more red bubbles. Just add them all up and they matter.

I can really only speak to Texas. Those blue areas in Texas represent millions of voters who voted Democrat were turned into votes for Trump. Several million votes. So its ok for MAGA folks to create a false narrative about steeling votes when the system create millions of Republican Votes.

Show me the evidence. Republicans are not above stealing the vote.

The very first time a little more than half of the Texas voters vote Democrat the Austin boys will be shouting from the roof tops how we need to modernize the system.

Austin is as blue as it gets. It is San Francisco in cowboy boots.

 

[Thales750]

Austin is as blue as it gets. It is San Francisco in cowboy boots.

I was referring to the Texas Government which is seated in Austin.

 

[Thales750]

Show me the evidence. Republicans are not above stealing the vote.

I didn't say they were stolen. I said were turned into Republican Votes.
as this data shows that State is close to being 50/50 and yet all 40 electoral votes will go to the Republican candidate. It's been like that since Reagan got elected in 1980.

Texas should not be a winner-take-all state. None of them should be, but especially Texas.
Texas Electoral Votes