Another mass shooting

[Jon]

Guns are desigen to do one or two of three things: punch holes in paper, p;unch holes in animals or punch holes in people. Military/Assault rifles are only designed for the last. A very good hunting rifle and execlent target rifle is the Remmington 700 in 308 caliber, which in Viet Nam was the weapon used by American snipers.

They are also designed to punch holes in a home invaders nerves and their resolve to enter a property.

 

[Minty]

@The_Doc_Man - Thank you for the detailed response.

I am fishing a little here - and I don't know the answer so am asking, My understanding was that it was trivial to modify (say an AR-15) so that it does become fully automatic, as there is a "Military Spec" version.

To be honest, whilst I get the whole "we have to go hunting" angle, if a species really is that much of a problem there are far more efficient ways of dealing with any of them than hunting them with a rifle.

Farmers/Gamekeepers/Livestock management workers in the UK can keep a variety of weapons, precisely for those purposes, but only for small scale control. Therefore the types of guns available are suitably restricted and the conditions they are kept in are really carefully monitored.

 

[jpl458]

They are also designed to punch holes in a home invaders nerves and their resolve to enter a property.

That is coverd in the last of three categories. How many gun deaths do you have in a year in England, around 25 or so as I've read. In the US that number, in 2021, was near 46,000 which includes murderes and suicides. The USA lost 50,000 troops in Viet Nam. We approach that every year.

 

[Jon]

That is coverd in the last of three categories. How many gun deaths do you have in a year in England, around 25 or so as I've read. In the US that number, in 2021, was near 46,000 which includes murderes and suicides. The USA lost 50,000 troops in Viet Nam. We approach that every year.

It is not. I think you got lost on the nuance.

We rarely use guns. Our weapon of choice in the UK is knives. And maybe pills for suicides.

When comparing the US, you also have to factor in a population that is nearly 5x larger.

Another thing to consider is that out of those 46,000, there might be a significant number which were self defence.

 

[Jon]

Just a quick follow up...what you fail to mention is that the majority of gun deaths from that 2021 data is suicide.

Suicides accounted for more than half of U.S. gun deaths in 2021

www.pewresearch.org

 

[moke123]

Just read a search warrant return. Guess what was found.

"smoke grenades, body armor, zip ties, four guns including a fully automatic AR-15."

 

[AccessBlaster]

If Democrats would stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%

 

[Jon]

If Democrats would stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%

Is there data to support this?

Edit: High crime areas = inner city = Democrat votors. I get it. now.

 

[moke123]

Gun Violence Archive

www.gunviolencearchive.org

 

[moke123]

Edit: High crime areas = inner city = Democrat votors. I get it. now.

Gun Deaths More Likely in Small Towns Than Major Cities

Contrary to popular belief, firearm deaths in the U.S. are statistically more likely in small towns, not major cities, according to new research.

www.publichealth.columbia.edu

Gun Violence Rates In Rural Areas Match or Outpace Cities

As gun violence continues to fuel violent crime, some conservative politicians are not only refusing to support violence prevention measures but are also rolling back gun laws. Many of these same officials express the narrative that gun violence is only a problem in urban, Democrat-led cities...

www.ncja.org

 

[jpl458]

It is not. I think you got lost on the nuance.

We rarely use guns. Our weapon of choice in the UK is knives. And maybe pills for suicides.

When comparing the US, you also have to factor in a population that is nearly 5x larger.

Another thing to consider is that out of those 46,000, there might be a significant number which were self defence.

When I was a boy, living in a rural environment, we had guns that were considered tools, like a shovel. We used them for hunting and pest control (snakes). But the vast increase in gun ownership over the past few decades, I lay at the feet of the NRA which created alarmist ideas that you needed a gun to be safe, I have spent a lot of time in England ( where drinking is the most civilized in the world, and can be considered an art form) and always felt safe there. Nothing here can compete wth an English Pub.

 

[Jon]

Nice chart. I notice there are a lot more deaths after Biden took office. Also lots more suicides. Anyone care to speculate why?

You can't really take the 2020 figure into consideration because there was a global lockdown and very unusual circumstances.

 

[Jon]

When I was a boy, living in a rural environment, we had guns that were considered tools, like a shovel. We used them for hunting and pest control (snakes). But the vast increase in gun ownership over the past few decades, I lay at the feet of the NRA which created alarmist ideas that you needed a gun to be safe, I have spent a lot of time in England ( where drinking is the most civilized in the world, and can be considered an art form) and always felt safe there. Nothing here can compete wth an English Pub.

I think the problem is that when most of the US is armed, you also need to be armed. We get the same problem with inner city kids over in the UK. Some don't want to go out if they aren't tooled up with knives, because otherwise they are bringing a fist to a knife fight.

 

[Jon]

Gun Deaths More Likely in Small Towns Than Major Cities

Contrary to popular belief, firearm deaths in the U.S. are statistically more likely in small towns, not major cities, according to new research.

www.publichealth.columbia.edu

Gun Violence Rates In Rural Areas Match or Outpace Cities

As gun violence continues to fuel violent crime, some conservative politicians are not only refusing to support violence prevention measures but are also rolling back gun laws. Many of these same officials express the narrative that gun violence is only a problem in urban, Democrat-led cities...

www.ncja.org

I do believe @AccessBlaster was referring to shooting "other" people, rather than themselves. But, interesting statistics nevertheless.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

if a species really is that much of a problem there are far more efficient ways of dealing with any of them than hunting them with a rifle.

So you would think - but in terms of specificity, nothing is more specific than a rifle with a scope. Poisons don't limit themselves to their targets unless you go to the expense of bio-engineering a species-specific pathogen. Traps catch anything that wanders into the trap. Introducing some kind of predator assumes that the predators are prey-specific. So please advise of ways to selectively trim a population of nuisance animals living in the wild that doesn't have potential for excessively broad effect on other species.

My understanding was that it was trivial to modify (say an AR-15) so that it does become fully automatic, as there is a "Military Spec" version.

Yes, but to own an unlicensed fully automatic weapon is illegal without a proper license. Persons who cross that line are taking a risk of becoming a felon and losing ALL rights to own a gun. We DO have laws on that subject, despite apparently popular, if incorrect, overseas beliefs.

 

[Jon]

One other thing about the study linked to suggesting higher death rates from guns in small towns. It can be misleading for a number of reasons.

1. It depends on how many classifications you have for rural and urban. For example, if you had 10 different types of rural areas, depending on size with one of those towns only having 5 people in it, then 1 suicide gives it a 20% death rate, something you can't get in an urban area because there are more people and so you have to take an average. One anomaly in an urban area won't distort the data much. I'm struggling to explain this part clearly, but if you toss a coin 5 times you might get 5 heads in a row. But if you toss a coin 10,000 times, you are likely to get roughly 5,000 heads, 5,000 tails. The smaller the number of coin tosses, the larger the variations in that sample, and that applies to towns with smaller numbers of people.

2. There are way more small towns than large cities, further increasing the probability that a small town has the higher suicide rate. This is not possible to meaningfully compare to an urban area with millions of people, since there are far fewer of these areas. You might get say 5,000 small towns and only 50 urban areas. This skews the likelihood of which area might have the highest suicide rate. This type of analysis can be used to push a certain political narrative, or bias. But if you understand the stats behind it, you can tease out the misleading conclusions.

3. The ratio of gun users to non-gun users will influence the figures. If there are more guns in small towns, they are more likely to use this tool to kill themselves, I would imagine, instead of another tool like a knife or pills.

Points #1 and #2 are the main ones though.

 

[Pat Hartman]

As a non-US person, I have still no comprehension why anyone outside the military or special armed response police units would have any sane or logical reason to be able to legally possess a fully automatic assault rifle.
They are designed with one very specific and obvious task in mind, and are remarkably efficient at it.

The gun issue goes back to the American war of independence. It took guns and a bloody fight with the British army to gain our freedom. The second amendment to the Constitution which is part of the Bill of Rights (the first 10 amendments) is a reflection on that.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed

The framers of the Constitution understood that it was important for the government to be afraid of the people rather than the people be afraid of the government and they foresaw a time when the government might overreach, as governments do, and need to be rebelled against again. What they couldn't envision was the dramatic escalation in the capability of weapons. At the time of the Revolution, the British had better, newer weapons than the rebels but not so much as to seriously outclass the rebels once the rebels stopped fighting by the current "rules" and switched to skirmishes and "sneak" attacks rather than full frontal battles.

A point that always seems to be missed is the "shall not be infringed". SHALL was not a suggestion based on the meaning of the word in the 18th century. It was a command. And yet over the past 250 years, the citizens' right to keep and bear Arms has been seriously infringed upon. Of course, the original intent was to let the population stand up to the government if necessary but there is no way that a hunting rifle stands up to an actual automatic rifle issued to the common soldier so, I don't foresee any revolution by force unless there is a way for the armed forces and even police to say out of the way. And I am not suggesting that anything other than handguns and hunting rifles be legal for the average citizen.

@moke123 posted some interesting links. I didn't realize how frequent suicide by gun was. This is one of the reasons that most states have a cooling off period between your purchase and the delivery of your gun. The other reason is to keep you from running to the gun store to purchase a gun so you can murder your spouse's lover in the heat of the discovery moment. At least you have to plan a little. I don't know how detailed the background checks are or whether or not they look at mental health issues. There is of course a cost to everything so I'm sure they don't look very deeply. Also, you may be fine today a s suicidal tomorrow so the background check wouldn't help.

The problem with the links is the implication of the titles. When you read the titles do you assume that people are shooting it out on the streets of flyover country the way they do in Chicago? You are supposed to. But the reality is that it is suicide by gun that turns the tide. This is typical click-bait and another attempt to control what the average person thinks. Unless you read the full articles, you don't understand the impact suicide has on the number of deaths. It is huge.

 

[AccessBlaster]

I do believe @AccessBlaster was referring to shooting "other" people, rather than themselves.

 

[moke123]

An Atlas of American Gun Violence

Ten years. 370,000 shootings. How has gun violence marked your corner of the U.S.?

www.thetrace.org

 

[Pat Hartman]

Also lots more suicides. Anyone care to speculate why?

The evil and discriminatory lockdowns in 2020 and 2021 destroyed small businesses and wiped out families life savings as a result.
It was too dangerous to go to church but you could go to a casino and Walmart. You couldn't go to your corner store but you could go to the chain supermarket. Restaurants that were set up for takeout, came out ok. Some were able to adjust and catch up well enough to survive. The rest crashed and burned. When restaurants finally opened up, apparently COVID had been trained. It didn't infect you if you were sitting down but you were in immediate danger if you stood up so you had to immediately put on your mask. Who actually believed any of this?