Are you an atheist?

[Galaxiom]

Even the messengers of God of old were mocked.

Again you have simply quoted your book as evidence. You just don't get it because of the damage your faith has done to your cognitive abilities.

BTW you didn't respond to my challenge as to whether there is a single Qur'anic verse you would accept?

I would have thought the answer was obvious from what I have already posted. The Qu'ran is complete rubbish written by an arrogant, ignorant, misogynist, cognitively dysfunctional man.

 

[rodmc]

I only know one or 2 atheists but they seem as extreme in their views as believers are!

go figure

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

The problem for me with religion is I was brought up by Christian people and I am therefore a Christian.

Others were bought up brought up by Muslim parents and are therefore Muslim.

Of course this is a very simplified there are a multitude and range of religions and attitudes in between.

As I grew up I became cynical about religion, I started to see it as a male orientated mechanism for bullying and controlling others.

I think it was our King, King Henry the eighth, who actually set up his own religion "the church of England", in other words there was a value to this religion for him to control his subjects.

Growing up, becoming wiser, more experienced, I grew away from the religious idea, however as I get even older, I wonder at the universe and all the amazing coincidences that happened to create us.

I wonder at the seemingly very accurate statements in the genesis part of the Bible, and I believe there are similar statements in other religious writings,

In particular the statement "let there be light" what we now know about the universe, there was an awful lot of light at one stage!

Then there's the indication that the creatures came out of the sea, on to the land, a strange fact again incorporated into the Bible.

And the other big question, why are we here?

The answers are: a set of very specific accidents occurred which resulted in the formation of basic life which eventually became intelligent life.

The other answer: we are here to observe the beauty of the universe.

There is one problem for me with the assumption that there is no God, I can see one of the predictable conclusions of human evolution as a very sophisticated intelligent and thinking computer, possibly incorporating human minds, this could be a few tens of years away; or more than likely a few hundreds of years away; but there's no argument that would convince me it won't happen some-when in the next 10,000 or 20,000 years.

So you could argue that there is no God now but there will be one in the future, but what is the future for this God, eventually the end of the universe, by that time I am sure any surviving intelligence will have developed the technology to allow itself to manoeuvre its self in to further universes created from the embers of the old dying universe. In this situation I can imagine the intelligence preserving itself by forwarding itself into one of the newly created universes. I think it's wrong to dismiss people who believe in God out of hand and call them idiots, because to my mind there is a mechanism which allows logic to provide a "God" and I'm not the first person to say this, Isaac Asimov wrote a story in 1956 exactly about this idea.

However I am definitely of the opinion that "man" and I mean "men" have used the idea of a "God" as a mechanism to manipulate their peers and subjects.

This is still happening, and this is why people are arguing about the issue. No one likes to see anyone hoodwinked, no one likes to see bullies.

Giving a small group of men an elevated status because they presumably know the mind of some "God" through some supposedly God written material, but this is very dangerous, this causes wars, this causes the subjugation of women, and others, I don't believe you will find this hate this subjugation "written" in any Godly materials, I think you will find this in the minds of men that manipulate that written material for their own benefit.

 

[Lightwave]

I had a beer to celebrate... not sure what it means other than what I've been told but passes the 5 sigma test which is 1 in 3.5 million.

Glorious evidence based scientific precision.

Discovered by an international group of individuals without any agenda except discovery and with not a hint of what ethnicity or nation they hail from.

Higgs

 

[spikepl]

The name of this particle is obviously misspelled. It's the long sought-after Heinz-particle, the holy ingredient of pasta sauce.

R'amen.

 

[John Big Booty]

I don't think that we are all born pastafarians, I didn't convert until about 40 but there is no doubt that my 2 year old grandson was as he clears another plate of offerings from the FSM.

He is not into beer and strippers yet.

Brian

Surely the experience of your 2 year old grandson speaks to the truth of Born Pastafarians. For how else would gain this unexplained devotion to the FSM.

 

[Dick7Access]

Uncle Gizmo,
Great food for thought. I am at a lost to find your following. I am intrerested, please give me the verse?
Then there's the indication that the creatures came out of the sea, on to the land, a strange fact again incorporated into the Bible.

 

[Galaxiom]

Then there's the indication that the creatures came out of the sea, on to the land, a strange fact again incorporated into the Bible.

Such as some of these that come from the sea?

You are way off the mark if you think the Bible is anywhere near the science.

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

Uncle Gizmo,
Great food for thought. I am at a lost to find your following. I am intrerested, please give me the verse?
Then there's the indication that the creatures came out of the sea, on to the land, a strange fact again incorporated into the Bible.

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning —the fifth day.

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

The indication is in the order, 1st the Sea creatures and then the land creatures,

 

[Galaxiom]

I wonder at the seemingly very accurate statements in the genesis part of the Bible, and I believe there are similar statements in other religious writings,

In particular the statement "let there be light" what we now know about the universe, there was an awful lot of light at one stage!

Perhaps, maybe if it said "Let there be Gamma Rays".

However everything in the Bible was created by the decree, "Let there be...."., so there is nothing special about that one statement. Simply a case of wanting to see the B'bile predate science just like Aziz does with the Queer'an.

... eventually the end of the universe, by that time I am sure any surviving intelligence will have developed the technology to allow itself to manoeuvre its self it to further universes created from the embers of the old dying universe.

In this situation I can imagine the intelligence preserving itself by forwarding itself into one of the newly created universes. I think it's wrong to dismiss people who believed in god out of hand and call them idiots, because to my mind there is a mechanism which allows logic to provide a "God" and I'm not the first person to say this, Isaac Asimov wrote a story in 1956 exactly about this idea.

This is drawing a very long bow. While our understanding of the nature of the universe continues to increase that knowledge increasingly confirms that travelling through Time or into different universes or surviving the passage through another Big Bang is implausible. Moreover the current observations reveal an accelerating expansion, suggesting not embers but a cold dark diffuse nothingness awaits us.

 

[Galaxiom]

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.”

The indication is in the order, 1st the Sea creatures and then the land creatures,

In typical style of the faithful you completely ignore the obvious. The Bible has the birds contemporaneous with sea creatures. Science has birds coming long after many other land animals.

Moreover, nowhere does it indicate that the life in the sea led to the life on the land. "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds". They just magically appeared with the Word Let.

Oh how I have been so blind! Behold the revelation. God was a programmer! Even today we Let values to variables and properties. (This makes about as much sense as those who try to attribute science to the Bible.)

BTW, yes, variables are actually "Let" in VBA too. It is just that it is understood when we don't Set. It is still used explicitly in property definitions.

Try it if you like:

Let x = 1

 

[Galaxiom]

Well the evidence would come from God thru the Qur'an. Those who believe accept this, those who don't will mock it as we clearly have seen. Even the messengers of God of old were mocked.

And verily messengers (of Allah) were mocked before thee, but long I bore with those who disbelieved. At length I seized them, and how (awful) was My punishment!

And like His altar-egos (pun intended) Allah relies on his Earthly minions to inflict His wrath. We see hundreds of rabid Muslims seeking vengeance for insults against Allah and His prophet but Allah Himself seems too lazy to do anything for Himself.

Oh, and talking about arrogance

Those who wrangle concerning the revelations of Allah without any warrant that hath come unto them, it is greatly hateful in the sight of Allah and in the sight of those who believe. Thus doth Allah print on every arrogant, disdainful heart. Qur'an 40:35

Oh let's do.

The meaning of arrogant from wiki answers
1.Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.
2. Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others

Atheists support their position with actual evidence. This is not an assumption of superiority but a reasoned argument.

The faithful's overbearing assumption of their superiority is unmistakable. Aziz demonstrates it so clearly. However for the ultimate embodiment of arrogance we must turn to Yhw/Jehovah/Allah and His obsession with being worshiped.

 

[spikepl]

Allah is evidently a particularly weak, hypersensitive and vindictive type of god. Now a crowd incensed by religious fervour has burned to death a mentally ill man in Pakistan, for insulting the muslim holy book...

A death cult at its worst. Hard to feel any respect for crap like this.

 

[Dick7Access]

Allah is evidently a particularly weak, hypersensitive and vindictive type of god. Now a crowd incensed by religious fervour has burned to death a mentally ill man in Pakistan, for insulting the muslim holy book...

A death cult at its worst. Hard to feel any respect for crap like this.

Amen, and amen

 

[Rabbie]

Allah is evidently a particularly weak, hypersensitive and vindictive type of god. Now a crowd incensed by religious fervour has burned to death a mentally ill man in Pakistan, for insulting the muslim holy book...

A death cult at its worst. Hard to feel any respect for crap like this.

But even the christian god seems to have a need to be believed in. Bizarrely - to me at any rate - he would rather be believed in than have someone obeying his rules. Sin all you like but just repent at the end.

 

[aziz rasul]

Again you have simply quoted your book as evidence. You just don't get it because of the damage your faith has done to your cognitive abilities.

I assure you that I have not been damaged. Your concern is very touching. The Qur’an is the ultimate and I will keep on, insha-allaah, referring to it much as you may be averse to it.

Fain would they put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah disdaineth (aught) save that He shall perfect His light, however much the disbelievers are averse. Qur’an 9:32

Those before them denied, and so the doom came on them whence they knew not.

Thus Allah made them taste humiliation in the life of the world, and verily the doom of the Hereafter will be greater if they did but know.
Qur’an 39:25-6

Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss: No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent an messenger (to give warning).
Qur’an - Surah al-Israa’ (The Night Journey) 17:15 See also 35:18.

It is not for any soul to believe save by the permission of Allaah. He hath set uncleanness (in a spiritual way) upon those who have no sense.
Qur’an - Surah Yunus (Jonah) 10:100

I would have thought the answer was obvious from what I have already posted. The Qu'ran is complete rubbish written by an arrogant, ignorant, misogynist, cognitively dysfunctional man.

Again I have to point out that the Qur’an was given to mankind by God. Verses already given regarding science show this. No man could have known 14 centuries ago that the universe began from the splitting of a particle, that the early stage of the universe was a gaseous one and that the universe was expanding.

As you seem to reject the Qur’an completely, here’s part of a verse which I’m sure you agree with, in substance regarding our treatment of out parents.

Whether one or both of them attain old age in thy life, say not to them a word of contempt, nor repel them, but address them in terms of honour. Qur’an - Surah al-Isra (The Night Journey) 17:23 See also 2:83.

but Allah Himself seems too lazy to do anything for Himself.

On the contrary, God will judge our actions and boy I wouldn’t want to be in your place when that day comes.

His obsession with being worshiped

Again with the little knowledge you have on the subject of Islam you make another error. God doesn’t ask us to worship Him for His benefit but for our benefit.

O mankind! Worship your Lord, Who hath created you and those before you, so that ye may ward off (evil).
Qur’an - Surah al-Baqara (The Heifer) 2:21

And be steadfast in prayer and regular in charity: And whatever good ye send forth for your souls before you, ye shall find it with Allaah: for Allaah sees Well all that ye do.
Qur’an - Surah al-Baqara (The Heifer) 2:110

And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night: For those things, that are good remove those that are evil: Be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord):
Qur’an - Surah Hud (The Prophet Hud) 11:114 See also 33:41-3 and 48:9.

Oh and spikepl and Dick7Access, just because a group of Muslims have done what you say does not mean Islam is to blame just as what the Christian Crusaders did had anything to do with Christianity.

O you who believe! Be ever steadfast in your devotion to God, bear witness to truth in all equity; and never let the hatred of anyone lead you into the sin of deviating from justice. Be just: this is closest to being God-conscious (taqwa).
Qur’an - Surah al-Ma’aida (The Table Spread) 5:8 See also 4:135.

 

[MikeLeBen]

Hello all,

I ticked the first answer.

My take on the matter is more individualistic.
Science sells better to me: I find it easier and more compelling to listen to some people who spend their lives investigating with whatever means they have the world and universe around them, by a mixed use of sheer brain power, ever-more-sophisticated technology and observation, and the expanation they provide consequently

than

listening to someone who bases their assumptions on old epic books, the rules found therein, more over provided under the threat that "you better believe this or else " & varPunishment.
Where varPunishment may be either death, eternal pain, eternal death, torture, drowning, starvation, choking or burning and so forth.

You know, I feel like: hmmkay bro, I'll just go with menu n°1.

 

[Dick7Access]

Hello all,

I ticked the first answer.

My take on the matter is more individualistic.
Science sells better to me: I find it easier and more compelling to listen to some people who spend their lives investigating with whatever means they have the world and universe around them, by a mixed use of sheer brain power, ever-more-sophisticated technology and observation, and the expanation they provide consequently



You know, I feel like: hmmkay bro, I'll just go with menu n°1.

What if your wrong??????

 

[Adam Caramon]

Your concern is very touching. The Qur’an is the ultimate and I will keep on, insha-allaah, referring to it much as you may be averse to it.

There's no problem referring to any old book, its just that people that do not believe in it will not be persuaded. As language is fluid and tends to adapt every few years, trying to comprehend a book written over 1,000 years ago is going to be full of errors and assumptions. That's why they're are so many branches of Christianity. I believe it also plays apart in why there are 2 different major sects of Islam.

For example:

O mankind! Worship your Lord, Who hath created you and those before you, so that ye may ward off (evil).
Qur’an - Surah al-Baqara (The Heifer) 2:21

This could be interpreted as other intelligent beings created before humans - "those before you" coupled with "O mankind".

All it would take for this interpretation to become commonplace is for enough people to start believing it. It is why the major world religions try to claim their holy books hold all the answers, which they do, as long as you interpret them in a favorable way. Much the same way psychics and palm readers seem to know so much about their clients.

What if your wrong??????

The same could be asked to you. What if the world was wrong about Zeus? Did non-believers in Zeus face a terrible punishment? What about Odin? What about animal spirits? What about reincarnation and karma?

It's far too simplistic to compare belief in one particular religion with non belief. You'd have to look at EVERY religion/set of beliefs that have existed ever. And maybe even some that no one ever heard about because they didn't become popular. Each one is just as likely as being accurate as the next.

 

[Dick7Access]

It's far too simplistic to compare belief in one particular religion with non belief. You'd have to look at EVERY religion/set of beliefs that have existed ever. And maybe even some that no one ever heard about because they didn't become popular. Each one is just as likely as being accurate as the next.

How right you are in if Aziz is right I am in big trouble. <G>